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Technical Discussions
01:10 Mar-01-2009
Hasham Khan
3745 views
Boiler Plate, SA516Gr70
We have procured steel plates with SA516Gr70 specification from China in 50mm Thickness for the fabrication of Nose Ring Shell at Hot End for our local Cement Plant. The Mill test certificate came with plates as follows;

As per steel mill certificate: Steel Grade: SA516Gr70.

Dimension: 50*2500*10100 per piece.

Weight: 9.911 Tons.

Chemical Composition: C=0.20%, Si=0.26, Mn=1.17, P=0.009, S=0.004, Cr=0.04, Al=0.036, Mo=0.013, Ti=0.002, Cu=0.0.098, Nb=0.02, Ni=0.22, V=0.002.

Tensile Strength: Re=380Mpa, Rm=540Mpa & A=34%Impact Test: 166J, 164J, 158J.

Ultrasonic test: ASTM A435, 910+-10 Degree Centigrade, 1.5min/mm.

The above chemical compositions has also verified from two different certified Testing Labs and the results are;

1) C=0.22%, Mn=1.03%, Si=0.25% and S=0.009%

2) C=0.195%, Mn=1.142%, Si=0.283% and S=0.002%

The shell has been fabricated according to given workshop drawings but our client is not accepting the shell due to less carbon content i.e. 0.20% instead of 0.28% as per ASTM A516 or/and SA 516 Grade-70.

Please review and assist us to resolve this matter. How can we convince our client that we have used correct material and there is no risk involved to install this shell at the Kiln Nose Ring Hot end? Secondly, if this is not SA516Gr70 material then can you please confirm the name and specification of above plates with authentic technical reference?
 
 
18:01 Mar-01-2009

Michel Couture
NDT Inspector, ,
consultant,
Canada,
Joined Sep 2006
499
Re: Boiler Plate, SA516Gr70
In Reply to Hasham Khan on 01:10 Mar-01-2009 (Opening).

Hasham,

First of, I am not a metalurgist and looking at the information you have provided, in my opinion, it would be very hard if not impossible to convince me if I was your customer.

From what I know, when something is fabricated and receive an appelation, it should meet minimum code or you just can't call it that! In your situation, ASTM state a certain percentage of alloys for each element making up A516 Gr. 70 and from the mill certificate it doesn't.

What should have been done from your end is what is called a source inspection. Before you start fabrication, you have to ensure the material received meet the specification and the contract. Your metallurgist should have been involved in this matter when you received the material in your shop. In case of a discrepancy and before you start fabrication, you should have contacted you customer and informed them of the situation. Maybe a compromise may have been reached. It would have save you lots of headaches.

Now as to the identity of your steel, like I said previously, I am not a metallurgist. But when I Google, ASTM 516, I found this website from the USA. http://www.oliversteel.com/ASTM-a516.htm

From the information on that website, the steel you got according to mill certificate and chemical analysis by two other lab based on the carbon contain maybe ASTM A516 Gr. 55. Like I said, maybe. Since I don't have full access to ASTM Specs, it is somewhat difficult, but for a company that is in the steel business, access to such information should be par for the job.

Good Luck!!!

 
 
03:02 Mar-02-2009

RDuwe

NDT Inspector, API-510, 570, 653,
MISTRAS,
USA,
Joined Jan 2009
146
Re: Boiler Plate, SA516Gr70
In Reply to Michel Couture on 18:01 Mar-01-2009 .

Sorry, but you have a legal problem. Your customer ordered A516 Gr. 70, your supplier misrepresented the material delivered to you as A516 Gr. 70. The material is NOT as specified. Your customer demands you use the specified material. Looks like time to have a legal chat with your supplier.

This sort of problem was somewhat common 15 - 30 years ago from the Pacific Rim countries [excluding Japan]. This is one of the reasons that Positive Material Identification 'PMI' is mandatory in the U.S. petrochem industry.

You need to be extremely vigilant when using low-bid suppliers from Pacific Rim countries. One of my latest clients has been [successfully] purchasing 304 & 316 stainless fittings from China. However, they buy through a reputable, long established wholesaler, and we test about 50% of the fittings using an X-ray Fluorescent alloy analyser. We also compare the Certified Mill Test Cert with the material specification.

If you had checked the paperwork {CMTR vs. specification], you would have found the discrepancy. Purchasing a copy of ASME Section II, Part A [ferrous materials] for about $500, to give you all the boiler and pressure vessel steel specifications at hand would be an excellent idea.

NOTE: X-ray analyser does NOT give carbon content. You need a spark or plasma unit to confirm carbon content.

 
 
10:24 Mar-02-2009

S.V.Swamy
Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control,
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex ,
India,
Joined Feb 2001
649
Re: Boiler Plate, SA516Gr70
In Reply to RDuwe on 03:02 Mar-02-2009 .

While agreeing in general with you, I would like to mention that Spark or Plasma units are not the best to analyse for carbon. A Carbon Sulphur Analyzer by LECO or other similar units are best. A small sample (less than 1 gram) is cut from the plate (from an end) and analyzed. Very reliable. Almost all labs have these equipments.

Incoming inspection is critical and in this case, failure to check with the referencing specification (ASTM) has caused in a major problem. Unless the customer is really generous and unless there is some design leeway, the fabricated items are more or less scrap.

 
 
11:11 Mar-02-2009

Ingo Becker
Engineering, NDT Inspector & Sales,
ec-works GmbH,
Germany,
Joined Apr 2000
26
Re: Boiler Plate, SA516Gr70
In Reply to Hasham Khan on 01:10 Mar-01-2009 (Opening).

Hasham,

I'm really not an expert regarding all kinds of alloys and standards, but I think you should have a close look to the standard again. Regular the Carbon content is written in the standards as a maximum value!!!! Please recheck this! All other values seem to fit to SA 516 Gr. 70!

Good luck!

Ingo

 
 
15:57 Mar-02-2009

Michel Couture
NDT Inspector, ,
consultant,
Canada,
Joined Sep 2006
499
Re: Boiler Plate, SA516Gr70
In Reply to Ingo Becker on 11:11 Mar-02-2009 .

Hi Ingo,

You are right everything corrolate to ASTM A516. The problem is the carbon contain and this is in part what makes the difference between Gr 70 and other grade.

Visit the website I have mentionned previously and you'll see the difference regarding carbon containt and thickness.

As Swamy said, Incoming Inspection is crucial in all operation. In this case, you end up with a pile of scrap metal. I don'T know how much was the material worth when purchased, but I believe right now in Canada, scrap steel goes for about $120.00 a ton. WOW!!!

 
 
16:49 Mar-02-2009

John Brunk

Engineering, NDT Level III,
Self employed,
USA,
Joined Oct 1999
116
Re: Boiler Plate, SA516Gr70
In Reply to Hasham Khan on 01:10 Mar-01-2009 (Opening).

Hasham,

All three chemical composition reports you have given meet the requirements for SA516 Grade 70. The carbon contents given for each grade in the specification are maximums. The manganese content is within limits for Grades 65 and 70, high for Grades 55 and 60. The only question is whether the material meets tensile requirements. According to the manufacturer's report, it does. Minimum yield strength for Grade 70 is 260 MPa, report states 380. Tensile strength range is 495-620 MPa, report states 540. % Elongation minimum is either 17 or 21, report states 34. The impact test is not required by SA516 unless called out in the purchase order as a supplementary requirement. It appears the real problem is that your client has misunderstood the carbon content requirement of the specification. 516 calls out ASTM A20/A20M for guidance in purchase specifications for steel plates for pressure vessels. I don't want to try to go into too much detail here, but carbon content is often given as a maximum because of problems it can create while increasing strength. For this type of steel manganese also increases strength. Note B to 506 Table 1. Chemical Requirements allows igher manganese content with reduction of carbon below the stated maximum. Mechaincal properties also depend upon rolling procedures and heat treatment (as-rolled, normalized or stress-relieved).

John Brunk

 
 
16:57 Mar-02-2009

John Brunk

Engineering, NDT Level III,
Self employed,
USA,
Joined Oct 1999
116
Re: Boiler Plate, SA516Gr70
In Reply to Hasham Khan on 01:10 Mar-01-2009 (Opening).

Hasham,

I just realized I made one mistake in my previous message. I noticed the thickness of your material is 50mm. For thicknesses over 12.5 mm the manganese content ranges are increased for grades 55 and 60. This means the manganese content would be within limits for any of the four grades 55 through 70. The problem remains that your customer has misunderstood the carbon requirement.

John Brunk

 
 
16:57 Mar-02-2009

Ingo Becker
Engineering, NDT Inspector & Sales,
ec-works GmbH,
Germany,
Joined Apr 2000
26
Re: Boiler Plate, SA516Gr70
In Reply to Michel Couture on 15:57 Mar-02-2009 .

Hi Michel,

you are right; but what is missing at the mentioned web page is the small word "max." The written carbon contain is the upper limit. e.g. for the mentioned dimension 0.28% is the upper limit, and 0.2% is still okay!

I have just discussed the question with a friend working for a steel company, and he agreed. Maybe take a look to "www.oakleysteel.co.uk/a_516_steel_plate.htm" ?!

You are right, scrap is a good business today!

regards

 
 
18:09 Mar-02-2009
Hasham Khan
Re: Boiler Plate, SA516Gr70
In Reply to John Brunk on 16:49 Mar-02-2009 .

First of all, I would like to say, Thanks a lot to all the respected members who have spared their precious time for the posting their valued technical suggestion, know-how and expertise in order to assist me very well. What surprized me as well, the less value of Carbon content that leads our fabrication to be rejected while comparing others we found them okay and within the required limit. I am not an expert but I think the maximum value of carbon content in Gr60 should be considered as the minimum value of carbon content in Gr70? Am I right? Can anyone please send me ASTM A20/A20M Standard on >hashamuddinkhan@yahoo.com> for further guidence as recommended by Mr. John above.

 
 
18:31 Mar-02-2009

Michel Couture
NDT Inspector, ,
consultant,
Canada,
Joined Sep 2006
499
Re: Boiler Plate, SA516Gr70
In Reply to Ingo Becker on 16:57 Mar-02-2009 .

Ingo,

Thanks, I'll have a look. One thing for sure we do learn lots on this site.

 
 
18:32 Mar-02-2009
Hasham Khan
Re: Boiler Plate, SA516Gr70
In Reply to John Brunk on 16:49 Mar-02-2009 .

Hi John,

Can you please assist me with detailed technical reoly for our client as they wrote me that the fabricated shell is being rejected as same deemed as SA516 Gr55 due to low content carbom 0.195% as per SA516 Gr70 specification. What should I reply them to make them convinced that the material we have used is correct and conforms to the required standard of SA516 Grade 70 specification. Thank you very much.

 
 
18:49 Mar-02-2009

Michel Couture
NDT Inspector, ,
consultant,
Canada,
Joined Sep 2006
499
Re: Boiler Plate, SA516Gr70
In Reply to Michel Couture on 18:31 Mar-02-2009 .

Hi Ingo,

On second taught, what we should be consulting really is ASTM 516 and anyone who is serious and in the business should have their own copy. Its part of doing business. And as Swamy said previously, a good inspection for incoming material to ensure the quality required is met probaly would have raised some flag before production began and prevent delays that Hasham is finding himslef in right now.

 
 
19:49 Mar-02-2009

John Brunk

Engineering, NDT Level III,
Self employed,
USA,
Joined Oct 1999
116
Re: Boiler Plate, SA516Gr70
In Reply to Hasham Khan on 18:32 Mar-02-2009 .

Hasham,

It should be sufficient to ask your customer to carefully read SA516 or ASTM A 516/A516M. Requirements are the same as ASTM and ASME have cooperated with these. But since it may be that your customer is not inclined not trust your company or your supplier, I suggest checking to the web site of well-rrespected supplier of this material who is located in the UK, Oakley Steel. Go to http://www.oakleysteel.co.uk/a_516_steel_plate.htm. There you will find tables of chemical analyses and mechanical test data for 5 heats of A516Gr.70. The carbon content of these heats ranged from 0.175% to 0.180%. There is also data on 5 heats of A516Gr60. The carbon content of these ranged from 0.100% to 0.159%. Presenting data like this from a recognized expert source that has no interest in the dispute should be a good way to convince your customer. Good luck!!

John Brunk

 
 
20:05 Mar-02-2009

John Brunk

Engineering, NDT Level III,
Self employed,
USA,
Joined Oct 1999
116
Re: Boiler Plate, SA516Gr70
In Reply to Hasham Khan on 18:09 Mar-02-2009 .

Hasham,

The carbon values for each grade of 516 are maximums only. In ASTM/ASME specifications for chemical compositions values are stated as maximum or minimum or ranges and there are often overlaps of some values from one grade to another. In this case the Grades 55 through 70 refer to the minimum required tensile strength in ksi (thousands of pounds per square inch). Here there is also overlap, and also ranges of allowed values. Grade 55 is 55-75 ksi, Grade 60 is 60-80 ksi, Grade 65 is 65-85 and Grade 70 is 70-90. So the same piece of steel might meet both Grade 60 and Grade 70 in tensile and yield strengths and elongation and might be sold as either with a carbon content of 0.19%. If the carbon content was 0.29% for a thickness of just over 2 inches it would have to be sold as a Grade 70. All this can be confusing until you have the documents and study them.

John Brunk

 
 
21:33 Mar-02-2009
Hasham Khan
Re: Boiler Plate, SA516Gr70
In Reply to John Brunk on 19:49 Mar-02-2009 .

Hi, John

As Ingo and you have instigated me to visit Oakley Steel, UK website for further cross-references about the carbon content in SA516 Gr70 boiler plates. I am very much thankful to both of you for providing me an appropriate guidelines that I can show to my client as well. Indeed, we did a mistake for not having ASTM A516 / SA516 standard for the comparision of the specification, and I believe on 'Learn from our mistakes'. However, during internet search engine, luckly, I have got another document from 'Mittal Steel, South Africa' as a reference and same can be down-loaded from: http://flatsteel.iscor.com/fspcatalogue/DataSheets/UnCoated/Web_datasheet_a6.1.doc
Thanks Michel, RDuwe. Swamy, Ingo and John.......Waiting for your comments.

 
 
00:32 Mar-03-2009
Peter
Re: Boiler Plate, SA516Gr70
In Reply to S.V.Swamy on 10:24 Mar-02-2009 .

Hi,

could some one tell me about machining of SA516-Gr70?

How hard is it ? How is the chip's flow?

Thanks
Peter

 
 
15:10 Mar-03-2009

S.V.Swamy
Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control,
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex ,
India,
Joined Feb 2001
649
Re: Boiler Plate, SA516Gr70
In Reply to Hasham Khan on 21:33 Mar-02-2009 .

Dear Hasham,

I am glad that the matter is becoming clearer. I too noticed yesterday that the carbon values specified are maximum and was planning to write to you about that and a reference to ASTM or ASME specifications would convince your customer too. Your material is not scrap after all!

I am glad that the discussion has evoked the knowledgeable replies from several experts in the field. NDT NET Forum is indeed a good place to bring our problems to.

You could share this discussion with your customer and they can check with other reputed experts in the field.

Best wishes to you.

Swamy
NDT & Quality Expert

 
 
15:14 Mar-03-2009

S.V.Swamy
Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control,
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex ,
India,
Joined Feb 2001
649
Re: Boiler Plate, SA516Gr70
In Reply to Peter on 00:32 Mar-03-2009 .

Dear Peter,

I don't have the machinability values with me (retirement has its problems!) but have seen a lot of carbon steel plates being machined easily in standard workshops. If I come across any specific data, I will share. If you really need the data and are unable to get it, let me know and I will make a special visit to the library of the organization from where I retired.

Best wishes.

Swamy

 
 
20:47 Mar-03-2009
Phil Herman
Re: Boiler Plate, SA516Gr70
In Reply to Peter on 00:32 Mar-03-2009 .

Peter,
This alloy is easily machined using high-speed steel (HSS) or better yet, carbide tooling. It is only slightly tougher than hot-rolled ASTM A36 or the cold-finished equivalent, AISI 1018 steel. For milling with carbide tooling, we typically use 400 SFPM (surface feet per minute) and a chip load of .004" per tooth. The formula for RPM is SFPM x 3.82/cutter diameter. For a 3" diameter carbide face mill with 6 inserts, the desired spindle speed would be 509 RPM. (400 x 3.82/3.00") To calculate the feed rate in IPM (inches per minute), take the RPM x the chip load (.004") x no. of inserts. In this case, the feed rate would be 12.2 IPM. Use coolant to help with lubricity and to evacuate the chips. I hope this helps.
Phil

 
 
21:46 Mar-03-2009

Peter Bruckner

NDT Inspector,
United Kingdom,
Joined Jul 2008
11
Re: Boiler Plate, SA516Gr70
In Reply to Hasham Khan on 18:09 Mar-02-2009 .

Hasham,
Looking at the application for this material, and assuming there is no pressure involved. I really do not believe that, even if there was a minor discrepancy in carbon content, it would affect that use of the fabrication. If your customer needed this nose ring shell he would find an engineer to sign it off. It appears that you are a victim of the economic climate and your customer is trying to find a way of putting off the purchase of an expensive spare. I see quite a bit of this whenever there is an economic downturn.
You are doing the right thing by ensuring what you have produced is completely to contract specification. I suspect once you have confirmed the analysis is to spec your customer will find another reason to reject the fabrication.
Best of luck.
Peter

 
 
22:31 Mar-03-2009
Hasham Khan
Re: Boiler Plate, SA516Gr70
In Reply to S.V.Swamy on 15:14 Mar-03-2009 .

Hi, Mr. Swamy,

Thank you for your comments, and indeed same are now for me as new air breathing because I was also under impression that my fabrication is gone for scrap! I also agree with you that through this forum I not only got full technical support of several experts from all corners of this world but emerging a new ray of light for the rejected fabrication. God bless all of you.

 
 
22:50 Mar-03-2009
Hasham Khan
Re: Boiler Plate, SA516Gr70
In Reply to Peter Bruckner on 21:46 Mar-03-2009 .

Hi, Mr. Peter Bruckner,

I am totally agree with your findings as well surprised to know that how you have analysed the mentality of our client. In fact, they had objected upon dimensional errors which was caused by their incorrect drawings. As famous saying "Customer is Boss" and "Customer is always right" we took their objection into consideration and rectified the snags. Now after physical inspection, they did not find any way to object on dimensional sizes. The came up with chemical composition objection. God knows, what will be next step/reason for rejection? It is now crystal clear that they are avoiding to accept the fabrication just keep safe their thousands of Dollars, I guess. But as you said I am ensuring that what we have produced is completely the contract specification without making them unhappy.

 
 
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