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08:08 May-29-2011

Abbas Bombaywala
NDT Inspector,
Free Lance,
India,
Joined Jul 2007
83
19399 views
ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
I did my ASNT Level II in the Year 2000 from India at that time i never even heard the name of PCN, But now a days every one is asking for PCN Level II personals only. So i Think better ASNT should close their shop. And all ASNT Level III should stop qualifiying Level II Techinicans.
Seriously ASNT Should think something about this.
The Reason behind this is many ASNT Level III giving Level II Certificates without proper training and examinations. In My past experience I had three Level II Technicians hired from joined our company from India, none of the technicians even knew how to held the probe or even the magnetic yoke. And they were holding Level II Certificates for PT, MT & UT.

Because of this reason the genuine ASNT Certificate holder are bearing the consequences.

I asked PCN Examiner once if I can directly give the Examination for PCN Level II as i am having practical experience of 10 years so i dont need the training, but they insisted that i need to undergo the PCN training or else i can't give only examinations. Now why would i spend 2500 USD for PCN where i can get PCN for only 250 USD of examination fees.

 
12:12 May-29-2011

anjafo

NDT Inspector,
Norway,
Joined Aug 2009
204
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Abbas Bombaywala on 08:08 May-29-2011 (Opening).

to be honest you will get pcn qualified personnel that cant do the job.

an easy check is to perform a better interview, a 5 minute conversation should determine if the tech can back up his cert.

i agree with you in part, it is silly that a qualification is not recognised and that should mean it should not be done, but personally i feel the problem runs deeper.

if the book is followed then if you have either asnt or pcn you should be qualified and experienced enough.

however its to easy to get past that to try get your career started. im sure many a good tech didnt have a clue to start with ;)

either employers need to be stricter or the process needs changed.


 
07:29 May-30-2011

Mathew Alexander

NDT Inspector, ASNT NDT Level III ,
PETROCHEM-ITSS,
Saudi Arabia,
Joined Aug 2009
8
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Abbas Bombaywala on 08:08 May-29-2011 (Opening).

Mr. Abbas is correct. Recently I made an interview in major cities in India for qualified and experienced NDT technicians. I have interviewed about 250 candidates who have ASNT level II certificates in RT,UT,MT &PT, but 95% of the candidates has never seen even the equipment. Without giving proper training or having sufficient experience, these poor candidates given huge amount just to get the level II certificates. Do Indian Level III's have any ethics? India Government of ISNT should involve in this and stop this scam.


 
08:35 May-30-2011

Godfrey Hands
Engineering, ,
PRI Nadcap,
United Kingdom,
Joined Nov 1998
214
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Abbas Bombaywala on 08:08 May-29-2011 (Opening).

Hi Abbas,
One thing to watch out for is what is meant by "ASNT".
The ASNT performs third party independent examinations, which are equivalent to examinations based on EN473 (PCN). These are at levels II and III

However, personnel can also be examined in accordance with the requirements of the ASNT document SNT-TC-1A. This is an in-house system, and is not independent. The value of such qualification is at times questionable, and the operator cannot take his qualification with him when he changes employers.
Unfortunately, many operators qualified in accordance with SNT-TC-1A falsely claim to be "ASNT" qualified.
To check on the validity of any genuine ASNT certificate, check on their web-site.

As has also been said below, there are also genuinely qualified operators that have somehow managed to get a genuine certificate but cannot do the job, so once again an interview by an NDT expert should be able to identify these candidates. At the same time some "SNT" operators can be very capable.

Godfrey


 
12:18 May-30-2011

Nigel Armstrong

Engineering, - Specialist services,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 2000
1003
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Godfrey Hands on 08:35 May-30-2011 .

It is difficult to be defiitive with the SNT-TC-1A system as the only absolute requirement is that the employer develops a written practice detailing the control and administration process for how technicians qualify for the various methods and levels of certification. After that there are many recommendations but no mandatory requirements. Its an interesting point whether any training establishments offer their clients CP-189 certification as the requirements in this document are mandatory.

An SNT-TC-1A certificate issued to a technician by a training establishment is only valid for work done with that training establishment as the technician's employer. The SNT certificate expires upon termination of the contract with the issuing authority (the employer). How the new employee is certificated by his/her new employer should be clearly stated in that employer's written practice.

The SNT-TC-1A system of NDT technician certification should be accepted by the employer's customers as a contractual document to be upheld, but of course any prior review of the system is at the customer's discretion. Therefore it is an easy tool for abuse for those unscrupuulous or cash-strapped employers who dont care because they know their qualification and certification system will never be audited. Ultimately only the end users have the power to enforce change through their informed decisions as to whether this cheaper form of certification ensures the quality of inspections for which they are paying.

If the employer IS the end user and the Chief Executive is the certifying authority (rather than the company Level III), this should be an incentive to ensure only well-trained and competent technicians are successful in the certification process.

If its any consolation to you Abbas (which I doubt), I had to pay for and attend the CSWIP WI course to be able to sit the CSWIP WI exam, despite having been previuosly certified and working as a CSWIP WI for 10 years. During this period the rules on eligibility to sit the CSWIP exam changed to include mandatory attendance at the CSWIP WI training course and I had let my certification lapse due to lack of funds (and time) to maintain all my certifications.


 
15:04 May-30-2011

John Brunk

Engineering, NDT Level III,
Self employed,
USA,
Joined Oct 1999
123
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Nigel Armstrong on 12:18 May-30-2011 .

As an outside agent (contractor) Level III I work mostly with U>S> companies that follow SNT-TC-1A. When a candidate has met the requirements I give the employer a document that states he or she has met the requirements of THE EMPLOYER'S WRITTEN PRACTICE for experience, training, general, specific and examinations for qualification to do specific types of work with specific types of equipment to examine specific types of materials and/or products. For example, if the job was doing only fluorescent, water-washable penetrant testing of castings the document would say that. If the candidate had passed specific and practical exams for manual contact ultrasonic testing per the ASME Code and AWS D1.1 that would be stated on the document. Additional training and exams are required when a new method or new equipment or a new type of product comes along. I don't know if defining the extent and limits of an individual's certification is a common practice among companies that use SNT-TC-1A, but I insist upon it if I am going to sign my name to anything. This way a person looking for a new job can have something helpful that should not mislead a prospective employer.


 
16:30 May-30-2011
Alpesh
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Abbas Bombaywala on 08:08 May-29-2011 (Opening).

Abbas,

Thanks for providing an entertaining read, the sound of violins could be heard and tears welled in my eyes as I read your prose.
How about you harden up and take the financial hit like the rest of us and get on with it. What makes you so special to think you don’t have to pay? There are plenty of guys around with more experience than you that have paid for the PCN conversion training and exam.


 
14:43 May-31-2011

Arun

Engineering, ASNT Level III & CSWIP 3.1 Welding Inspector ,
India,
Joined Mar 2010
2
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Mathew Alexander on 07:29 May-30-2011 .

Mathew,

I agree that some Level III may give Level II certification without training but it dosn't happen only in India. There are many professionally ethical persons in India. ISNT which is under NCB certification it gives Level II certificates by properly conducting training and it is independent of ASNT. So there is no need to comment whether Indian Level III have ethics. Giving fake certification is present in whole world not only in India.


 
16:42 May-31-2011
Hu thio
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Arun on 14:43 May-31-2011 .

Abbas alias Advance NDT inspector .....

I have objection when you say ... ASNT should close their shop .... you are not the one who will decide that ok ... There are good and bad practices in every business.. so just live with that .... so if you want to pay your bills and mortages ... better move your ass and do what is required to maintain your job...... instead of getting sympathy by starting such threads .. and who knows whether you are genuine ASNT certificate holder or not??????


 
18:13 May-31-2011

keith baldam

NDT Inspector,
welding institute,
United Kingdom,
Joined Apr 2011
10
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Nigel Armstrong on 12:18 May-30-2011 .

I have read must of the threads some postive some peronel, a dig at previous employers.

But any way you look at whether ASNT, PCN, or Even CSWIP. They are all money making rackets when a Doctor or Engineer Qualifies does he sit test every few years???
Instead of you moaning and bitching start a way to have a go at these organizations, because
they are the ones that saturated the market, if my Brit colleagues remember when mass redundancy were made by British Steel, all these establishment took any body with money until accidents occured then they tighten up. So do not blame companies blame the organization to increase the level of entry and skill.


 
19:11 May-31-2011

Joe Buckley
Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT,
Level X NDT, BINDT,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 1999
378
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to keith baldam on 18:13 May-31-2011 .

I don't think That one can fairly describe any of these as 'money-making rackets' they are all non-profit organisations, and I've been involved with both ASNT and PCN/BINDT enough to know that no-one gets rich from them.

It is important to understand the difference between the different certifications schemes. and when they are appropriate.

Employer certification schemes such s SNT-TC1A are potentially cheaper to operate. but do transfer all the responsibility for quality to the employer - you get what you pay for

With centrally certified schemes such as PCN, ACCP, or the theory part of ASNT (vitally different from SNT although they get confused) qualifications the certifying body takes responsibility for quality - auditing that worldwide is not cheap. For PCN to have credibility it is essential that all PCN certificate holders meet the necessary standard. If as anjafo says there are PCN qualified staff out there who cannot do the job that concerns me, and should be investigated. Hopefully their incompetence relates to areas outside the scope of the exam...

Its a complex (and potentially boring for most of us compare to the techie stuff) subject, but it is very important.

Joe


 
23:46 May-31-2011

JOHN BRUNK

Engineering, NDT Level III,
Self employed,
USA,
Joined Oct 1999
123
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to keith baldam on 18:13 May-31-2011 .

Continuing education is a requirement for maintaining credentials in several fields other than NDT; but it does seem to me that truly learning new things about your field is different from having to repeat essentially the same exams every few years.


 
08:47 Jun-01-2011

Nigel Armstrong

Engineering, - Specialist services,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 2000
1003
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to JOHN BRUNK on 23:46 May-31-2011 .

Whilst its easy to place the blame on the Level III's and the training/certification bodies, the equipment and plant owners have end responsiblilty for safety. My opinion is that these latter prefer a paper QA/QC approach - procedures, personnel certificates and system audits to replace practically-skilled and experienced personnel capable of critical review of proposed NDE procedures and techniques and of cross-checking NDE personnel working to those procedures.

The welders on a project are continually monitored from initial qualification to the WPS through to NDE of their completed welds. Yet who monitors the sensitive work of the NDE techncians - nowadays? Nobody! How many incompetents are there at work in all the big fabrication yards, many of which are situated in the Middle east where employment costs are lower than elsewhere? How many welds have been passed OK when the UT technican relies solely on the digital read out for location of the origin of displayed signals without any clue of the fundamentals of UT?

I think we should also look further than the conventional NDE methods to the advanced methods sucha s digital radiography, advanced UT and all the many other advanced methods more frequently utilised. In PV fabrication it is often the welding engineer without appropriate training or skills with assigned responsibility for NDE whereas today a Level III will struggle to keep pace with the advanced trechniques employed.

Until such time as ASME Code for example has a Section V which stipulates appropriate NDE procedure and personnel pre-contract qualifications akin to the welding procedure and personnel requirements of ASME IX then many employers will continue to be disdainful of whether or not their NDE employees are competent for critical inspections.

I also agree that its not only SNT-TC-1A personnel who may be woefully inadequate, the same can be applied to any certification system because of the inherent impulse to pass candidates rather than fail due to the fact that such candidates have been trained to the approved syllabus by accredited training organisations who do not wish to gain a reputation as being "tough".

Certification is only a record of what the technician has done, demonstration shows clearly what the technician is or is not capable of.

As for paying, if Abbas does not want to pay for approved training to enable him to sit the required examination that is his prerogative and eventually he may be fortunate enough to find an employer who will fund such training and examination. Until such time I estimate that currently his chances of employment in the Middle East are as good as the majority of self-funded ISO 9712/EN473/PCN qualified personnel. However I believe in future SNT certification for advanced methods is less likely to be accepted than central certification, e.g. PCN as someday EPC's and Owners will realise that the ASNT Level III exams do not include these advanced methods so how are they authorised to certify level II's?

As a coda, what do people do when they encounter incompetent personnel? Fortunately I have not encountered techncians who do not know how to hold a probe or yoke! Abbas surely this must be hyperbole? When I notice any deficiency in skills i seek to address it as swiftly as possible through quick practical demonstration. If this does not result in adequate improvement on test pieces then he shall not qualify.


 
13:10 Jun-01-2011

Phil

NDT Inspector, Radiation Safety ,
BINDT, MIAQP,
United Kingdom,
Joined Mar 2009
151
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Joe Buckley on 19:11 May-31-2011 .

Joe

I like Keith have been in NDT long enough to remember the closure of the Steel works and one of the options they were offered for retraining was NDT they took courses for 48 weeks which they were allowed to count as site experience. Whereas those of us who were in NDT already had to have proper site experience. CSWIP did that in 1982 - 83, also in the late 70's CSWIP resit failures for UT was running at about 90% this was Technicians with over 10 years experience in the field told you need to do a critical sizing course and you will pass the resit. Money grabbing I thought so at the time I was only a junior technician but it put me off taking CSWIP exams.


 
18:26 Jun-01-2011

Nigel Armstrong

Engineering, - Specialist services,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 2000
1003
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Phil on 13:10 Jun-01-2011 .

Differrent story now Phil, TWI clued up when people went driving north and south another couple of 100 miles past TWI Abington and Paisley to go where one was treated with some respect. Now that CSWIP has tapped into overseas market the pass rate (especially WI) must be sky high!

i never begrudge the newbie whatever their background as long as they pull their weight and dont expect a free ride. How many of the ex-BS guys are still involved though, not that many, I wager. The current "teenie" ex-BS equivalent NDT newbies are returning heroes from Afghanistan!

A strong masochistic streak is required to accept the constant petty humilations of this trade, especially at the mid-career stage. At one time after 10 years as a level 3 I was scanner tech to a narcisstisic ex-Kwik Fit fitter with all the nous of a retarded parrot (my sincere apologies to retarded parrots)! Never mind tenacity wins through and now I'm allowed to prepare workpacks by my new masters!

In a few years time there wont be any warplanes (I always love it when as with nuclear power, the bean counters do the anti nuclear anti war machine mobs' work for them!!!) So there will be diminishing numbers of ex-RAF NDT techs to fill up a lot of civvie streeet NDT jobs.

Perhaps thats the mettle of a true NDT contractor, the trendsetters and pathfinders of the pay-your own-way generation, pay tens of thousands of your own money to be of better service to the capitalists. What happened to us has now been heaped on all undergrads! Well all is well with UK society as long as Eton, Harrow, Chaerterhouse and Winchester public schools remain registered charities - 3 cheers for the financial cupidity of our better-offs!!!!


 
18:55 Jun-01-2011

Nogel Armstrong

Engineering, - Specialist services,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 2000
1003
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Nigel Armstrong on 18:26 Jun-01-2011 .

The Toffs!


 
15:43 Jun-02-2011

Phil

NDT Inspector, Radiation Safety ,
BINDT, MIAQP,
United Kingdom,
Joined Mar 2009
151
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Nogel Armstrong on 18:55 Jun-01-2011 .

Hi Nigel

If you read what I have written you will see my comments do not blame the newbie, but the certification body for changing their rules so as to qualify for a large amount of government money spent on the exams and courses. Through out most of my career I have been involved in training of less experienced technicians this was interesting to say the least, especially when I was told by one employer they had got special permission to work on a site but I would have to teach a CSWIP Rad level 2 how to do the job, I wanted to know how he managed to qualify as a level2 if he could not do the job ?

Regards


 
17:28 Jun-02-2011

Jon Wallis

NDT Inspector, - ,
Netherlands,
Joined Feb 2010
538
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Phil on 15:43 Jun-02-2011 .

I also remember the re-training of the redundant British Steel guys, at the time i was working in the netherlands and we got them as contract level 2's. They fell mainly into three categories; 1. they were useless, 2. they, (or their wives, mothers etc.) couldn't handle being away from home, 3. they spent as much time and money as possible in the bars and hot-spots of Rotterdam.
I now work in Germany where they presently have re-training schemes for ex Opal workers and the like and these guys are sent to a training school whose only purpose is to get them qualified to level 2 in multiple methods with the barest minimum of practical training. They are then sent into the workplace and are expected to earn money fot their new employer and they haven't got a clue.
If you take on 10 newbee's, at the end of one month half will have left and after three months you may have 2 that are starting to show some glimmer of promise.
If the practical training actually took place on the job as part of the qualification, this would at least give people a chance to see that they need to work night shifts, weekends, overtime etc.


 
17:56 Jun-02-2011

Nigel Armstrong

Engineering, - Specialist services,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 2000
1003
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Jon Wallis on 17:28 Jun-02-2011 .

Phil

I apologise that my post conveyed to you the message that I thought you were "blaming the newbie" - that was certainly not my intent. Sorry.

All,

It is ironic that posts regularly appear from people (usually who have spent their own money) keen to develop a career in NDT who cannot get a start whilst others (ex-BS, ex-Opel, ex-armed forces) have a lot of govt money thrown at them for a continuation rate of maybe 20% as per Jon's experience.

Well engineering in general cannot attract bright and committed youngsters in sufficient quantity to replace the ageing workforce, so in my opinion industry knows it has to accept low standards in order to fill vacancies relatively cheaply. Has anybody seen any indication otherwise?


 
18:31 Jun-02-2011

Phil

NDT Inspector, Radiation Safety ,
BINDT, MIAQP,
United Kingdom,
Joined Mar 2009
151
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Jon Wallis on 17:28 Jun-02-2011 .

Hi Jon

I had similar experiences with the ex British Steel guys but a few were trying to do the job.

But of course now we have employers trying to use virtual training instead of proper practical experience of the method, I think the virtual training is a good refresher and revision tool but never to be used as a replacement for practical experience.

Yes I agree that trainee Technicians should realise that they have to work shifts and overtime as required, as that is part and parcel of NDT.

Regards


 
18:39 Jun-02-2011

Phil

NDT Inspector, Radiation Safety ,
BINDT, MIAQP,
United Kingdom,
Joined Mar 2009
151
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Nigel Armstrong on 17:56 Jun-02-2011 .

Nigel

Most of my training courses and exams have been with my own money, sometimes reimbursed sometimes not, but always to increase my knowledge of NDT and to keep myself in gainfull employment.

But yes it is difficult to attract people into engineering this will have to be reversed if the standards are going to remain high. But as you say the bean counters will look as always to cut costs and when things go wrong blame everyone but themselves.


 
01:17 Jun-03-2011
Shawman
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Nogel Armstrong on 18:55 Jun-01-2011 .

Haha Nigel. Toby Stratford will live on in your heart forever. Kwik Fit Fitter to the beadstall! Priceless


 
05:37 Jun-03-2011

Nigel Armstrong

Engineering, - Specialist services,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 2000
1003
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Shawman on 01:17 Jun-03-2011 .

Shawman

I dont hide behind a cloak of anonymity so I mention no name. If the desciption fits the person you name that may be purely coincidental. We are not necessarily as unique as characters as we might like to think we are.

But I thank you for the opportunity to allow me one correction - I should have spelt "narcissistic" correctly.


 
20:33 Jun-03-2011

Andrew Cunningham

NDT Inspector,
Canada,
Joined Jun 2008
234
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Abbas Bombaywala on 08:08 May-29-2011 (Opening).

ASNT and or SNT-TC-1A still have its place in the world of NDT.
The problem with PCN is you can’t take PCN until you have experience and you can’t get experience without a PCN.
ASNT is a great system to get a person started in NDT, to gain some experience before taking a more challenging exam that demonstrate a higher level competence that PCN and other exams requires.
You have come across some so called technicians with dubious certification that had a low skill standard. The blame does not lie with these trainees, the “yet to be technicians” were doing their best to get into the industry.
It is the ASNT level 3’s that gave the technicians their level 2 qualification, which was at fault.


 
11:12 Jun-10-2011

Phil

NDT Inspector, Radiation Safety ,
BINDT, MIAQP,
United Kingdom,
Joined Mar 2009
151
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Abbas Bombaywala on 08:08 May-29-2011 (Opening).

Hi Abbas

Now the person who has called for ASNT to close shop is now looking for employment and listing his ASNT level II qualifications, in job seek seems either very strange or as usual two faced complain on the one hand but still prepared to use the qualification to gain employment.

So make up your mind should they close up shop or should they instead have better control of the certification system.


 
13:05 Jun-10-2011

Nigel Armstrong

Engineering, - Specialist services,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 2000
1003
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Phil on 11:12 Jun-10-2011 .

Phil

I agree, Abbas' OP read to me as a whinge about newly-qualified techs with the same Level II certification as him flooding the market and undercutting experienced techs' wage rates, but its a whinge most of us have at least thought if not expressed publicly. Which British tech of the '80's never moaned about the British Steel guys or military personnel or any other perceived threat to their livelihood?. But it highlights the issue that certification masks an enormous range of competencies, from the not-at-all to the highly-skilled - only demonstration can reveal skill level.

Give him a break though, he has to work (presumably he enjoys NDT as we do) and he cant claim the certification the certification he desires but does not possess to give him a head start over the chasing mob. Either he cites his SNT-TC-1A quals, meaning any potential employer will have to arrange new certification for him, or he keeps quiet and just says Level UT/MT/PT or similar.

Though I do think he is pushing it a bit far expecting special case exemption from the EN473 requirement for documentary evidence of approved training meeting the certification body's requirements for examination eligibility. Then again it was worth trying - you dont get if you dont ask! I bet the PCN examiner though,t "cheeky blighter, he is out to ruin a nice little earner"!


 
18:45 Mar-17-2013

S R G PRABHU
Consultant, AUT specialist,
FREELANCE,
India,
Joined Aug 2008
61
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Abbas Bombaywala on 08:08 May-29-2011 (Opening).

Hello Abbas,
I understand how you feel about the current situation.
It is obvious that many level II techs certified by ASNT level III's are not competent.As many gents said here, it is an employer based certification ,only will create an impression to the prospective employer that one has some experience in the method.
I am an ASNT level 3 myself in two methods,but I too lost some client jobs because the companies give priority to EN 473 certified level 3's and I should say that most of the PCN level 3 's I came across being very knowledgeable and command over codes stds, procedures etc,compared to some young ASNT level 3's.
Please note these operator companies are the ones for whom I already worked before in different projects.
So, what I have decided is , to go and get training and sit for the PCN level 2 exam in UT in June, and prove myself that I am a competent UT operator.Then I plan to go for PCN level 2 in PA, and TOFD and next year, of course PCN level 3, instead of complaining and worrying myself.Yes, I will spend a few thousand dollars for these exams, but know what? Will make it very fast...after getting my PCN and securing a nice job with that!!!
Life is change...Take the challenges in whatever form ,prove yourself you can do it before proving others.....
Finally, I have gone through some of the model questions in PCN UT, and definitely they are far above the ASNT LEVEL 2 standard given by many Level 3's.
I wish you good luck in your EN473/ISO9712 level 2 exams which I am sure you are going to appear sooner or later...



 
19:56 Mar-17-2013

Michel Couture
NDT Inspector, ,
consultant,
Canada,
Joined Sep 2006
598
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to S R G PRABHU on 18:45 Mar-17-2013 .

S R G PRABHU,

My hat off to you my friend. Good positive attitude and the will to go the extra step to prove himself.

Indeed, it is sad that people who have the power to make decision do not have to ability to forsee the ramification of their decision and in the end, it is the technician who works hard which end up paying for it. I have seen companies who are very serious with ASNT, NAS410 or other certifications scheme and have also seen the "others". Unfortunately, we often only hear from the last. This is why I recommend anyone to got to the troubble of geting nationally recognised certification.

I wish you luck on your succes.


 
08:00 Apr-13-2013
dan
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Abbas Bombaywala on 08:08 May-29-2011 (Opening).

I'm afraid to say .but I think that only happens in india? because in some countries particularly in the Philippines they are very strict in ndt certificates..we also have a 3 year schooling in NDT, and some training centers give a training for ndt basic,leve I and II..but you should have at least college degree or equivalent. It doesn't matter whether it's snt or pcn..as long as you are really trained in the right manner and acquire the certificate legally and you are confident to do the inspection and able to communicate with the clients, any employer will hire you. they hire you base on your experience..most of the time, because I've met a lot of technician who can't explain the basic procedure in ndt, and some of my them admit that they just bought the certificates...and that is really unfair for the technician who dedicate their time in one company and learned that their soon to be supervisor doesn't know anything..lol, im just stating a fact..


 
10:53 Jul-06-2013

srinivas
NDT Inspector, ,
kalva engineers pvt ltd,
India,
Joined Oct 2012
1
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Mathew Alexander on 07:29 May-30-2011 .

Sir, i partially agree with you but would like to know what made you to conclude that all indian level-iii s are not having ethics

i did my asnt level-ii in pt mpt rt ut et vt and working in a NDT COMPANY in hyderabad which is always striving for quality and distancing itself from un ethical practices


 
15:06 Jul-06-2013

dan

Philippines,
Joined Apr 2013
2
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to srinivas on 10:53 Jul-06-2013 .

my friend..I didn't said indians... I said india..
for me its doesn't matter what we have whether its ASNT or PCN.. as long as we are competent and to prove that we are capable to do the inspection and pass all examinations and meet their requirements, I don't see any problem with that. it's all about the place that we are going to work, because some place especially US prefer ASNT, and Australia both hires ASNT and PCN, middles east most uses ASNT certificates, I am thankful to say that I'm working right now in an international NDT company based in the US and still don't have the PCN certificate. ..


 
01:25 Jul-11-2013
Neela
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Abbas Bombaywala on 08:08 May-29-2011 (Opening).

Dear Sir
I am in a legal request from ASNT To Sue about your comment sir.Many people working in industry as ASNT Level III ,Your comment is not correct except some isolotion incident, Any have you are not upto the mark ,have a comment on people ,
Please Mr.Rolf ,please don't post it all,NDT .Net is a forum all over the country sorry world will look it evvery day .
These bombaywala make it non sense
Thanks
Mani


 
06:29 Jul-12-2013
Neela
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Abbas Bombaywala on 08:08 May-29-2011 (Opening).

you are not hqaving any identity ,you are only Freelancer ,but making big comment ,
In the industry people make a fear about making comment ,
you are not upto the mark or genius to make a comment
Any have nexxt time you should think ,before make a comment
thanks
Neela


 
13:55 Jul-12-2013

Jon Wallis

NDT Inspector, - ,
Netherlands,
Joined Feb 2010
538
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Neela on 06:29 Jul-12-2013 .

It's a bit rich when someone with a gmail address "ndtalpha" and an untraceable name "Neela" pontificates about another forum contributor and suggests he has no identity.
Ranting and raving is easy without taking the consequences!

1
 
12:46 Jul-13-2013

Ed T.

Other, ASNT Level III, UT, RT, MT, PT, VT,
NDT Level III,
Saudi Arabia,
Joined Sep 2011
169
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Jon Wallis on 13:55 Jul-12-2013 .

I didn't know you could certify as a ASNT Level II and take your certs with you.
Abbas, you said you did your ASNT Level II in 2000?
They should have expired a long time ago. In act, they should have expired as soon as you left the employ of the company that certified you. I believe that applies in India as well.

I'm seeing alot of ASNT bashing here. Thats why ACCP came to be. When you have ACCP you demonstrate your skills and you take your certs with you.

Even a central certification scheme is not foolproof. Thas why its up to the Level III's to qualify and certify individuals.

One of the problems I see in the USA is employers certify individuals and thhen they leave for more money. Employers don't like that. I guess its an economic thing.


 
14:41 Jul-16-2013

Amy
NDT Inspector, - -,
USA,
Joined Jan 2009
85
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Ed T. on 12:46 Jul-13-2013 .

Ed,
I agree. I see a lot of certification bashing on here. I am certified through ASNT and also NAS 410, which is the technical equivalent to EN 4179, as well as a few other schemes over the years. No matter what certification scheme I am certified to, it does not make me any more or less competent, I am still qualified to requirements. I worked in R&D for years and was not certified at all, but trained and proficient in my position. As Level III's it is our responsibility to make sure your personnel are up to par. A piece of paper means nothing, no matter who it is from. It is only a start to verifying competency.
As far as the leaving a company for another, yes, I see it often as well. I can’t blame anyone for looking for more experience and advancement. Employers looking for long term personnel also need to take some responsibility for this and compensate these people when they acquire a new skill. Why would people stay at Company A when the standard rate is $10/hr more at Company B or learn a new method? I’ve run into it myself when my career has become stagnant, and chose to move on. I work for a great company now, but my growth is limited. I will either have to accept leveling out or go. I believe this is a big factor in the turnover of NDT personnel.


 
06:27 Aug-04-2013
Uttam
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Mathew Alexander on 07:29 May-30-2011 .

Dear Mr. Mathew Alexander,

Dont you think, it is your moral responsibility to communicate to ASNT regarding such level III personnels, who provide certifications without training & examination. Its spoiling our name & also the name of ASNT.

Best Regards
UTTAM - 9967947277


 
10:22 Aug-05-2013
bindu
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Uttam on 06:27 Aug-04-2013 .

Uttam

Get real!

Whilst you are on your high horse ride over to Columbus, Ohio with NDT outlaws strapped to your saddle and donate the reward money to a charity for real impoverished NDT techs thirsting for their next beer!


 
11:04 Aug-05-2013

George Shields
NDT Inspector, ,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 2012
30
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Abbas Bombaywala on 08:08 May-29-2011 (Opening).

PCN and SNT holder.

obviously doesnt only happen in India. It happens all over with different certs.
If the employer checks the certs before employment and carries out a small interview/competency test prior then there shall be no problems.

Dont judge the masses on the actions of the few.


 
15:40 Aug-05-2013

Joe Buckley
Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT,
Level X NDT, BINDT,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 1999
378
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Uttam on 06:27 Aug-04-2013 .

People seem to be missing the point that the SNT-TC-1A documents are a guideline.

Employers using an internal certification system can get employees with whatever level of competence or incompetence they wish to pay for.

Similarly their customers can decide when they audit the QA system whether it meets their requirements.

Used properly the employer certification approach can deliver knowledgeable, appropriately qualified employees, and gives a framework where they can get detailed sector-specific training to a level that a more general central certification scheme could never match.

Used improperly it can deliver incompetent, even dangerous systems. But in a company that is willing to allow that there are probably many other issues...

Joe





 
00:32 Aug-29-2013

Harendra Latiyan

Engineering, ,
India,
Joined Apr 2010
43
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Joe Buckley on 15:40 Aug-05-2013 .

Hi All,
I thought of sharing an experience I had today,relavent to this thread .....
Just for intoduction I am involved in certain engineering assessment for production facility of one of the major oil & gas producer in UAE. One gentleman from client sides (holding good position) comes to my desk and enquires about PCN/CSWIP certification schemes and levels of certification and claims to be expert about ASNT certification.
Good! I explained all about PCN/CSWIP ( certifying bodies BINDT/TWI), status of EN 473/ISO 9712.
Gentleman: Well in our country (Native of so called Gentleman) everyone is following PCN now a days, is good and we are also going to replace ASNT with. Goes on telling.....As far as ASNT NDT Level I and ASNT NDT Level II certification is concerned INDIAN ASNT LEVEL IIIs are issuing these certificates to their wife too.
I understood the level of expertise and explained all about employer based NDT Level I & II certification as per SNT TC IA/ CP 189 and ASNT NDT Level II (Central certification).
Even after this he writes a statement on paper.... ASNT NDT Level III is autorised to issue ASNT NDT Level I & II certificate and asks me if he is wrong? I replied yes you are wrong because there is no ASNT NDT Level I certification and ASNT Level II is issued by central body or (may be some authorized body I am not awrae of). When I says that statement is wrong. He Looses his temper and asks me you are saying I am wrong ... I am expert!!!!! you have to prove it.
Ok, I was trying him to guide to asnt website for clarification, meanwhile two ASNT NDT Level III comes one from Client side and one contractor???
He puts same question to both of them------ ASNT NDT Level III is authorised to issue ASNT NDT Level I and ASNT NDT Level II certificates or not? Reply from Both of them was YES!!!!!!
ASNT NDT Level III from contractor side was known to me I explained him, he understood, agreed, but agrees with gentleman again (Surprising!!! I could understand his point because he was from contractor side with very few NDT personnel having cetntral certification. In case he agrees with me, he may loose the service contract that has been awarded or has to opt for central certification for his personnel). I dont care about another level III from client side because he might not be aware???
Now at this stage again he put same question and keep on shouting that you telling me that I am wrong....(I am client you are contractor you are in my office and telling me, I am wrong, your salary comes from the work we have awarded to you. I will complain to your higher management or say sorry). I am metallurgist I am an engineer what is ASNT Level III... a technician... I can pass any time.
I could have slapped him but being resposible to my employer I kept calm and apologised.
Now I am under inner conflict.... Lost two hours, Being right on the concept, being in possession of much higher academic qualification and in no fear of loosing my job why I was bearing all that........Leave it, it was a bad day.... but EDUCATIVE....How peoples dont care about ethics when it comes to money?
Idea to write this all is to seek views about How such situation can be avoided.....any better solution....?? Can there be an initiative from respective certifcation body to educate/update major clients and certificate holders??
I know,I could have been diplomatic, but is that the only way?
Focus was that ASNT certifcation is not good, I agree that there are some stupids in India Issuing NDT certificates without following the guidelines but these certificates are not ASNT certificates, On the other hand there are many world class NDT experts who capable to perform much better that many others who have been certified as per reputed X Y Z certification scheme?
Why do people generalize the statement..... rather than having a performance demonstartion/qualification procedure in place????
Assuming that I might be wrong,I have decided to post this,so that I can rectify errors.
Thanks in anticipation for your comments, suggestions...........


 
06:32 Oct-27-2013

frank ding

Consultant, ,
TUV SUD,
China,
Joined Oct 2013
9
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Abbas Bombaywala on 08:08 May-29-2011 (Opening).

there are 2 different certification systerm, one is 2nd party qualification, and the another is 3rd party certification. In my opinon, 2nd party certificate can meet employer demand very well, but 3rd party certification is more fair because it is independent.
I don't think that 3rd party certificate is the best solution for NDT personnel certification, but it is a good solution if the regoin doesn't have good training, examination and qualficiation system. But nobody can say ASNT level II should be out of demand from the market because it is very popular and wide accpeted at USA.


 
10:35 Dec-10-2013
Sugumar
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Harendra Latiyan on 00:32 Aug-29-2013 .

please anybody help me for starting my future with mechanical engg,i have decide to learn NDT courses plz tellme which one is best(ASNT-2 or PCN or any other ouality control courses) for coming future in all over area.I am waiting for u r valuable suggestions


 
15:17 Dec-11-2013
rudra madhab
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Abbas Bombaywala on 08:08 May-29-2011 (Opening).

Sir I have completed asnt ndt l2 in ut,my,pt, and vt.i am searching for ndt jobs but unfortunately everybody require 2yr exp.plz suggest me what should i supposed to do?


 
01:20 Dec-12-2013

frank ding

Consultant, ,
TUV SUD,
China,
Joined Oct 2013
9
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Sugumar on 10:35 Dec-10-2013 .

PCN or EN ISO 9712


 
15:11 Dec-29-2013
abdelkrim
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Abbas Bombaywala on 08:08 May-29-2011 (Opening).

if you have ASNT TC A1 tis certification is not valid except for internal use, however there is ASNT certification with is defferent and it's regignised .
also pcn certification is widley recognised but the exam is more difficult.
me i prefere PCN BINDT the best one and recognised around the world


 
17:59 Mar-01-2014
Dileep.Bongarala
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Godfrey Hands on 08:35 May-30-2011 .

Hi every one,

I am Dileep and I'm per suing b.tech in metallurgy and material technology. After completion my b.tech i want to do NDT level 3. But I had a doubt that which is better in PCN and ASNT.


 
16:53 Mar-03-2014
John
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Harendra Latiyan on 00:32 Aug-29-2013 .

Harendra
You are arrogant and wrong ( but mostly arrogant)
Read SNT-TC-1A. After testing and completion of experience hours the level III may test and certify LVL I and II personnel. Thanks you for looking down your nose at the technicians and good luck passing the level III that you assume that you could pass at any time


 
14:34 Mar-04-2014

Harendra Latiyan

Engineering, ,
India,
Joined Apr 2010
43
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to John on 16:53 Mar-03-2014 .

Dear John,
I thank you very much for your feedback and I welcomes your interpretation & adjectives provided you are able to understand the content of my post!!!!!
Regards
Harendra


 
20:54 Mar-04-2014
John
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Harendra Latiyan on 14:34 Mar-04-2014 .

Harendus,
From SNT-TC-1a...
"The NDT Level III, in the methods in which certified, should be capable of training and examining NDT Level I & II personnel for certification in those methods."
This is of course after the proper experience hours and training. ASNT ACCP Level II are available and employee portable if the employee or employer desires to send his "lowly" technician to sit for the written and practical exams. And I find it insulting and libelous that you suggest that ASNT gives away its certifications to "wives" of level III's.


 
11:50 Mar-05-2014
karim
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to John on 16:53 Mar-03-2014 .

do pcn my freind


 
11:56 Mar-05-2014
karim
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Abbas Bombaywala on 08:08 May-29-2011 (Opening).


snt tc A 1 is an internal certification only, most international companys dont recognise SNT TC certifications.
and every body know that you can have level 2 snt tc in india or egypt , you have just to pay money.
PCN is a valid certification you have to pass a hard exam ,it very serious that why all companys arround the world recognise PCN certifications.
gentlmen just i want to advise you, if you have a skill in ndt method you practice do PCN


 
12:02 Mar-05-2014
karim
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to John on 20:54 Mar-04-2014 .

Mr Jhon
you have to check people who have level 3 ASNT and certify every body even if the dont know nothing.
many people in india egypte,algeria are certified level 2 , by an asnt level 3 but they dont know nothing.
if asnt organisation want to make order they have to dont give right to all level 3 to certify people.
sorry if i did mistakes my english is not perfect


 
14:22 Mar-05-2014

Gerald R. Reams

Engineering, ,
Industry,
USA,
Joined Aug 2012
159
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to karim on 11:56 Mar-05-2014 .

With ASNT there are basically 2 routes to certification:

1. Central Certification through ASNT's ACCP Program.
2. Employer certification through use of the recommendations of SNT-TC-1A.

If companies are using individuals that are not qualified, don't give your business to those companies, unless price is your only concern.

Gerald R. Reams,
ASNT NDT Level III


 
15:50 Mar-05-2014
S R G PRABHU
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to karim on 12:02 Mar-05-2014 .

Karim,
Your message about PCN and ASNT certified technicians and ASNT Level 3's is wrong and totally immature and shows your inexperience.
We have all these people who 'claim' to got certified by PCN/CSWIP/COFREND and insult other certified techs.
I have taken a photo of the client's UT cross checker, claiming to be a COFREND Level 3,doing a UT cross check on the circumferential weld of a subsea structure, but doing the scanning without a DAC, and he found the missing defects!!?.
It shows it can be both ways about these third party certified people.Money is the main factor for the talented employer certified ASNT level 2's to appear for central/third party certifications.Do not underestimate techs based only on their certifications.How many techs continue their education in the field updating day to day developments,once they get their lucrative jobs based on their 'certifications'?How many can really pass a real exam any time ? Can you, with your PCN certs ,get a job in Canada?
Misuse of certification, bogus degrees in engineering, copying nice CV'S with all the informations in it ,and still surviving in the industry because they have the visa for that country.....its going on......do not conclude or judge things and post which can be offending.....Thanks and enjoy your stay in France ...or you from Algeria?


 
16:28 Mar-05-2014
karim
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Sugumar on 10:35 Dec-10-2013 .

pcn


 
01:20 Mar-06-2014
S R G PRABHU
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to karim on 12:02 Mar-05-2014 .

Karim,
Your message about PCN and ASNT certified technicians and ASNT Level 3's is wrong and totally immature and shows your inexperience.
We have all these people who 'claim' to got certified by PCN/CSWIP/COFREND and insult other certified techs.
I have taken a photo of the client's UT cross checker, claiming to be a COFREND Level 3,doing a UT cross check on the circumferential weld of a subsea structure, but doing the scanning without a DAC, and he found the missing defects!!?.
It shows it can be both ways about these third party certified people.Money is the main factor for the talented employer certified ASNT level 2's to appear for central/third party certifications.Do not underestimate techs based only on their certifications.How many techs continue their education in the field updating day to day developments,once they get their lucrative jobs based on their 'certifications'?How many can really pass a real exam any time ? Can you, with your PCN certs ,get a job in Canada?
Misuse of certification, bogus degrees in engineering, copying nice CV'S with all the informations in it ,and still surviving in the industry because they have the visa for that country.....its going on......do not conclude or judge things and post which can be offending.....Thanks and enjoy your stay in France ...or you from Algeria?


 
06:53 Mar-06-2014

Swadesh Singh

Saudi Arabia,
Joined May 2012
52
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to John on 20:54 Mar-04-2014 .

John,

I guess you misinterpreted Harendra's post. The statement which were offending were actually said by the client representative (which should be subjected to high criticism). I have known him and he himself has good qualifications in NDT. Very often rather always, Client people take contractor representatives for granted irrespective of the technical qualifications and experience they possess. Moreover, no certifying body or certified individual has the right or liberty to bad mouth other certification agencies. All have their own importance and requirement in some or other places.

1
 
08:29 Mar-06-2014
Charlie Jackson
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Swadesh Singh on 06:53 Mar-06-2014 .

General post comment
I think it’s very easy to forget that without integrity it doesn’t matter what qualifications you hold and of course this just doesn’t apply to NDT. I think wherever you wake up for work in the world if you get to work and the situation is not to your liking you just make your plans to move on to another, better opportunity.
There are still many openings across the industry for hardworking qualified technicians with integrity so I would suggest don’t waste your time trying to justify a particular certification scheme just get what you need and move on.
One piece of anecdotal evidence I will pass on – back in the 1970’s I arrived at a job as a fully qualified CSWIP UT guy and was told there is an elderly guy on the job without any qualifications but he is really good, and I thought ‘ yeh right Ill see for myself’. Bill his name was, and do you know what, Bill was an excellent UT guy on welds, very thorough and knowledgeable (and showed me a thing or two). Bill never did get any Qualifications as he was 64 when I met him but it demonstrates something we all know that the certification scheme is not the measure of the technician.

A better measure of a technician is listen to how much he talks about how much he has done and inflects how good he is – the judgement is usually - the more he talks the less he knows.

Keep smiling all you technicians around the world – it could be worse we might have a difficult job.

Keep smiling

Charlie Jackson

ASNT – PCN – CSWIP (lapsed) – CEGB (defunct) - Lloyds (Lapsed) - - + internal from various sources



1
 
12:07 Mar-07-2014

Swadesh Singh

Saudi Arabia,
Joined May 2012
52
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Charlie Jackson on 08:29 Mar-06-2014 .

Cheers Charlie,

That's the right approach and the best evidence. But, it's pity that people on Client's side seldom recognize it.

A mere certification never shows calibre of an individual.

Regards,
Swadesh


 
19:04 Jun-12-2014
sekhar
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Abbas Bombaywala on 08:08 May-29-2011 (Opening).

bro now i completed asnt level 2 starting how much salary is come, my qualification is b.tech (ECE) cmpleted


 
11:46 Aug-04-2014
Rajesh
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Abbas Bombaywala on 08:08 May-29-2011 (Opening).

Good evening sir.
thank you for your wonderful and useful description about level II.
please guide me which course to be chosen for my better career. im having 6 years experience, out of 6 years 5 years in structural designing and 1 year in production.
now im thinking to join in level II. please tel me which course is suitable to experience. for learning of all others courses also very high expansiveness.

i'm Rajesh, B.Tech (mechanical).


 
09:33 Sep-30-2014
nirmal Kumar Singh
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Abbas Bombaywala on 08:08 May-29-2011 (Opening).

Dear Sir,
you are absolutely right i have also the certificates but i have the knowledge regarding ndt and also the experience. its a request if you can refer somewhere in abroad plzzz


 
03:34 Jan-27-2015
Selvam
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Abbas Bombaywala on 08:08 May-29-2011 (Opening).

Dear Abbas,
You are correct. The real knowledge was hides by the certificates now a days. Even in my experience I have interviewed some PCN as well as SNT-TC-1A level II certificate holders, but I didn't find any difference both in excellence performance and also some of these candidates even don't know to calibrate the horizontal and vertical linearity. I really shocked to see these things. A well established institute provide them PCN training in India but nothing works..... Society should get involved in this and get rid of such unethical behaviours.


 
12:47 Feb-01-2015
KuMaR
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Sugumar on 10:35 Dec-10-2013 .

PCN...


 
10:05 Apr-30-2015
Ken
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Abbas Bombaywala on 08:08 May-29-2011 (Opening).

ASNT Level II is an in house certification. You are not suppose to use your ASNT Level II certification once you resign from the company. Your ASNT Level II certification becomes invalid within 6 months after leaving the company that provides you with the certification unless your new company verifies your certification.

Now, India has a lot of NDT companies that qualifies ASNT level II and "ship" them out to work all over the places. That would mean that the new employer only get a person that "knows" NDT, at the same time, needs to re-qualify them. Unfortunately most employer do not even bother to requalify them, which means, very quickly the ASNT Level II Inspector no longer carries a valid certificate.

ASNT Level II is not a passport for anybody to claim "certification" anywhere for the next three years as they like. It does not testify for "anything" except an in house certification fit for the purpose of that company only.

Clear? PCN is a different scheme and I will not say much. ASNT Level II does have their purpose because the company themselves is responsible for the quality of work done by the company itself.


 
11:25 Apr-30-2015

Michel Couture
NDT Inspector, ,
consultant,
Canada,
Joined Sep 2006
598
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Ken on 10:05 Apr-30-2015 .

Ken,

I think you should specify. ASNT is the American Society for Nondestructive Testing. They do have a scheme called the ACCP I believe and is very similar to PCN and the like. The certification that you are referring to which are revoke when leaving a company is the SNT-TC-1A. NAS 410 and CP189 are others that will be revoke when you terminate your employment.


 
03:56 May-01-2015
Ken
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Michel Couture on 11:25 Apr-30-2015 .

Hi Michel,

You are right Michel. I am referring to SNT-TC-1A

This is my understanding.

The correct reference for certification under SNT-TC-1A is ASNT Level II

There correct reference for certification under CP 189 is ACCP Level II or III.

There are some confusion in the market but lets all be clear about the terminology and the terminology would mean only one thing.

I strongly believe all those under ACCP scheme is equal to PCN scheme. Do note I mean "equally compentent" in general.

Those under ASNT level II scheme is for a different purpose and should not be unfairly condemmed in comparison with PCN because they are two different schemes and serves different purpose.

So lets not blame ASNT level II in anyway. Someone has used a tool that is not for its purpose. Of course it does not work. It is not the problem of the tool but a problem of the user (or the someone giving the user a wrong tool).

If you want a job with other companies and have the mobility in the area of NDT, get an ACCP (which is under ASNT too) or PCN or anything under ISO 9712.

Now if someone says he does not want a ACCP but only a PCN, then either this person is not knowlegeable in this business or bias. It then boils down to personal and not the scheme. These schemes have MOU that they recongize each other as equal.


 
04:15 May-01-2015

Michel Couture
NDT Inspector, ,
consultant,
Canada,
Joined Sep 2006
598
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Ken on 03:56 May-01-2015 .

Ken,

I totally agree with you. I hold Canadian certification, but I feel that SNT-TC-1A is a double edge sword. Some use is because they do not want to spend the extra buck and have their technician properly recognized, other use it as a tool to keep the salary demand of the technician in check because if the technician leave the job, he is without certification and difficulty finding a new job.


 
06:53 May-01-2015

Steven Doc

Other, QA/QC Manager,
LUKOIL Overseas,
United Kingdom,
Joined Feb 2011
93
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Ken on 03:56 May-01-2015 .

Ken,
Your post above is correct regarding MOU, however try getting a job in Europe with an ACCP Level II Cert and evidence of the MOU. I don't think you would be successful. Mutual recognition is one thing, industry acceptance is entirely different.

As for TC-1A, I really wish ASNT would move with the times and finally withdraw this document. It is seriously abused all over the Mid East and Asia. It is past time for all NDT Certification to be centrally certified by national bodies.


 
09:30 May-01-2015

Joe Buckley
Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT,
Level X NDT, BINDT,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 1999
378
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Steven Doc on 06:53 May-01-2015 .


I would take serious issue with Steven's suggestions that ASNT should withdraw the TC-1A document, This would be like withdrawing hammers because screwdrivers are better for putting screws in, Its just a question of the tool being used for the wrong job.

As we have said before there are many more technicians around the world correctly operating under employer based schemes (TC-1A or EN4179) than are using centrally certified ones. The problem is that 'ASNT certification' is apparently being misrepresented to both technicians and users as a portable qualification, and that technicians holding 'expired' certificates are being put to work without a proper employer based approval scheme in existence

And here the way forward is clear, section 3 of the ASNT code of ethics, which all members are bound by, and which as Level III's we re-affirm when renewing [ since its no longer necessary to be an ASNT member we are still covered] , states

"To refrain from associating themselves with any enterprise that would use their names or that of the Society in any manner countenancing misrepresentation"

This needs to be enforced -any ASNT level III's guilty of this should be kicked out and have their certificates withdrawn, and any schools using the 'ASNT' branding without adhering to the ethics code should be blacklisted or pursued legally.

1
 
09:40 May-01-2015
Ken
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Steven Doc on 06:53 May-01-2015 .

Steven,

Yes I agree. Its unfortunate. Maybe we let WTO deal with that. ha ha..

Every country or geographic location would have their own preference. Probably PCN would meet the same resistance in America as well. In Japan, probably none of PCN and ACCP works. On that note, there is not much we can do about it except we poor salary NDT personnel would need to "pay more" to be "more mobile".

SNT-TC-1A is seriously abused. That is true. But I do not think taking it out is the solution. But lets look at it from a few angles.

SNT-TC-1A program is solid by itself but unfortunately abused. In my opinion, over time PCN, ISO 9712 or... will be abused too. Because all these "authorities" are commecial driven and will create lots of test centres and there the competition and abuse will starts. The cycle just keeps repeating themselves.

The client has to be blamed too. They are not willing to pay for quality people. I was speaking to an Employer of several NDT Level III. He said its hard to get level III personnel that has field capabilities. Often they do not even have enough theoretical knowledge. I told him: I have one that is sound in both areas. But it cost you 30% more because he really paid a price to achieve that. He laughed and said...no no... I cannot afford. That concludes the market condition.

Furthermore, when a company is not willing to pay for a competent level III, the level III will not be able to train good inspectors. There the cycle goes around. Often, even with a competent level III, employer is not willing to spend time training their Inspectors.

There goes the cycle in the industry. So taking out SNT-TC-1A will not solve the problem. The "fashionable certification" will be abused in time to come. I am already seeing the start of PCN being abused. Its a money problem in the market. Those smart CEO only talk about how be commercially viable and "giving lip service" to quality.

So its a global problem that runs across all industry. Of course that includes NDT too.


.


 
14:29 May-01-2015

Joe Buckley
Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT,
Level X NDT, BINDT,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 1999
378
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Ken on 09:40 May-01-2015 .

Ken

It would be interesting to see how you believe PCN is being 'abused' - If so it should be followed up.

In general, similar abuse of the various centrally certified schemes should be much less of an issue because they are much more rigid and are strictly audited. The problem with central schemes is (potentially) duplicated cost and lack of flexibility, that's why they are not the answer for everyone (or indeed for most)
Joe


 
01:03 May-03-2015
Ken
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Joe Buckley on 14:29 May-01-2015 .

Joe,

My apologies for the misunderstanding... let me rephrase, in my opinion, I see risk of PCN being abused starting as more and more test centres are being set up.

I have not seen or known abuse yet but with the number of approved test centres being set up, the risk is increasing.

That's my opinion because I see them happenning everytime the number of centres increases in today's certification business.


 
09:22 May-21-2015

saurav
NDT Inspector, ,
astar training and consultancy ltd,
Singapore,
Joined May 2014
10
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Joe Buckley on 14:29 May-01-2015 .

FYI
PCN exams are highly abused in india and other asian countries.


 
16:09 May-21-2015
saiful
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to saurav on 09:22 May-21-2015 .

ASNT can't survived in the market. Worst place being abused by ASNT are middle east region especially Saudi Arabia. I've seen such abused from each Level of ASNT either level 2 or 3. As for the level 2, you can see easily worker coming from non-engineering background (even farmer, chef etc) getting ASNT level 2 like buying at 7-Eleven. Sadly, most of these are cheap labor originate from India and Philipine.

Why it is happen? All due to the newly set-up company which are joint venture between Indian/Philipine with the local. Unhealthy competition from these newly set-up company with others established company have made the wages, contract price etc getting lower and lower. With the current contract is so low, none is possibility for them to get experience and qualified worker. The best option, get some newly certified Level 3 and abused it to certified as many as level 2 as possible.

Client also has to be blamed, with the market currently none of these company having proper level 3 to understand the work which it'll be easy on these service based company to cheat the job. No mock-up test, not even proper certification. The only benchmark you have in saudi is only Aramco certification, unless the technician already passed, then you can believe it's competence to carried out the job.

ASNT certification should be abolished within the NDT world. Client should be wise enough to reject any ASNT cert from any Level. How easy nowadays to get ASNT Level 3? Just read the book, and pass the exam.

1
 
02:34 May-22-2015
Ken
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to saiful on 16:09 May-21-2015 .

Some said ASNT should be abolished. Now PCN is said to be highly abused. All systems are abused and bad, so what is left in the industry?

I think money is the problem in today's business and the cause of all these problems. That's the reality.

Very often, business wants to pay cheap, which includes "cheap professionals". At the same time, business wants bigger profit and revenue each year. Concurrently, they "demand" for quality. Cost of living keeps increasing. 24 hours a day did not change since the beginning of time. So where does it leave the people making 2 meals and a roof over their head? Abuse and cheating.

Very often, even a knowlegeable and skillful NDT team is not allowed time to do a proper job. Business wants to run their busines and not 'waste time" on inspeciton. Its PROFIT !!! So what is the good even if you have the knowledge and skills?

So if the industry is screwed up in this way, do not blame the people alone. If you pay me that little, "buy" ASNT Level II. If you pay me a little more, I get a ASNT Level II properly. If you pay me more, I get PCN level II. And even more, maybe study for ASNT Level III. And if you pay me obviously well, I really put my effort into a ACCP level III or PCN Level III and do it properly.

And if you pay me cheap and want a PCN level III or ACCP Level III, I cheat too because my return must commensurate with my effort and cost.

So when a company pays "cheap" should they expect quality? If they do, they are only dreaming and "lying" to themselves.

The reality is humans are like business too. If I invest AX dollars and AY time, I expect "A" return. If I only get "C' return, I invest CX dollars and CY time only.

You think the companies hiring them do not know they are getting C quality people. That's all they are willing to pay for.

Do not blame the people. Its the mindset of the industry, its the business. I am one of the guys in the industry that evaluate inspectors. I struggle to reject them because my company tells me: that's all we have (based on C price of course) and if we do not use them, how can we do the job? So like it or not, I have to mange around this.

I do not agree and dislike what is going on. But the above is the reality in today's business.

My take is doing either PCN or ASNT or ACCP as per requirements in all honestly and integrity would give good professionals.

Do not blame PCN or ASNT. Its a global business issue affecting NDT. Not an NDT scheme issue.


 
17:22 Aug-13-2015
Nwokorie
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Abbas Bombaywala on 08:08 May-29-2011 (Opening).

Hello Abbas, i really concore to what you said.

The unqualified and inexperienced SNT_TC_1A are the set of people constituting the public nuisance in the society. I am of the opinion that the unqualified should go back to classroom to get the ideals of the ASNT both practicals and theory properly.


 
08:58 Aug-14-2015

Godfrey Hands
Engineering, ,
PRI Nadcap,
United Kingdom,
Joined Nov 1998
214
Re: ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
In Reply to Nwokorie on 17:22 Aug-13-2015 .

hello,
I do agree that the misuse of SNT-TC-1A has given NDT certification a bad name.
However there is certainly a place for employer certification.
Within the Aerospace industry, NAS410 and EN4179 are respected, well regulated and regularly audited.
The employer (at least the honest employer) is the person who knows best if their employees are suited to the work they are doing and are competent in what they do.
Some customers regularly audit their suppliers, and one of the checks is on the examinations that were taken by the operators.
NAS410 and EN4179 also require an annual "Performance review" or mini practical examination, conducted by a Level 3, failure of which automatically suspends the operator's certification.
There is also scope within these standards for central (third party) training and examination, but with supplemental training and examinations given by the employer where required, to ensure that the operator knows something about the specifications, standards and equipment used by the employer, rather than just a general idea about how NDT works.

I believe that there is scope for these standards to also be used within general industry.
Godfrey Hands


 
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