08:08 May-29-2011 Abbas Bombaywala NDT Inspector, Free Lance, India, Joined Jul 2007 83
ASNT Level II out of demand from the Market
I did my ASNT Level II in the Year 2000 from India at that time i never even heard the name of PCN, But now a days every one is asking for PCN Level II personals only. So i Think better ASNT should close their shop. And all ASNT Level III should stop qualifiying Level II Techinicans.
Seriously ASNT Should think something about this.
The Reason behind this is many ASNT Level III giving Level II Certificates without proper training and examinations. In My past experience I had three Level II Technicians hired from joined our company from India, none of the technicians even knew how to held the probe or even the magnetic yoke. And they were holding Level II Certificates for PT, MT & UT.
Because of this reason the genuine ASNT Certificate holder are bearing the consequences.
I asked PCN Examiner once if I can directly give the Examination for PCN Level II as i am having practical experience of 10 years so i dont need the training, but they insisted that i need to undergo the PCN training or else i can't give only examinations. Now why would i spend 2500 USD for PCN where i can get PCN for only 250 USD of examination fees.
12:12 May-29-2011 anjafo NDT Inspector, Norway, Joined Aug 2009 204
Mr. Abbas is correct. Recently I made an interview in major cities in India for qualified and experienced NDT technicians. I have interviewed about 250 candidates who have ASNT level II certificates in RT,UT,MT &PT, but 95% of the candidates has never seen even the equipment. Without giving proper training or having sufficient experience, these poor candidates given huge amount just to get the level II certificates. Do Indian Level III's have any ethics? India Government of ISNT should involve in this and stop this scam.
08:35 May-30-2011 Godfrey Hands Engineering, , PRI Nadcap, United Kingdom, Joined Nov 1998 217
One thing to watch out for is what is meant by "ASNT".
The ASNT performs third party independent examinations, which are equivalent to examinations based on EN473 (PCN). These are at levels II and III
However, personnel can also be examined in accordance with the requirements of the ASNT document SNT-TC-1A. This is an in-house system, and is not independent. The value of such qualification is at times questionable, and the operator cannot take his qualification with him when he changes employers.
Unfortunately, many operators qualified in accordance with SNT-TC-1A falsely claim to be "ASNT" qualified.
To check on the validity of any genuine ASNT certificate, check on their web-site.
As has also been said below, there are also genuinely qualified operators that have somehow managed to get a genuine certificate but cannot do the job, so once again an interview by an NDT expert should be able to identify these candidates. At the same time some "SNT" operators can be very capable.
12:18 May-30-2011 Nigel Armstrong Engineering, - Specialist services, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 2000 1020
It is difficult to be defiitive with the SNT-TC-1A system as the only absolute requirement is that the employer develops a written practice detailing the control and administration process for how technicians qualify for the various methods and levels of certification. After that there are many recommendations but no mandatory requirements. Its an interesting point whether any training establishments offer their clients CP-189 certification as the requirements in this document are mandatory.
An SNT-TC-1A certificate issued to a technician by a training establishment is only valid for work done with that training establishment as the technician's employer. The SNT certificate expires upon termination of the contract with the issuing authority (the employer). How the new employee is certificated by his/her new employer should be clearly stated in that employer's written practice.
The SNT-TC-1A system of NDT technician certification should be accepted by the employer's customers as a contractual document to be upheld, but of course any prior review of the system is at the customer's discretion. Therefore it is an easy tool for abuse for those unscrupuulous or cash-strapped employers who dont care because they know their qualification and certification system will never be audited. Ultimately only the end users have the power to enforce change through their informed decisions as to whether this cheaper form of certification ensures the quality of inspections for which they are paying.
If the employer IS the end user and the Chief Executive is the certifying authority (rather than the company Level III), this should be an incentive to ensure only well-trained and competent technicians are successful in the certification process.
If its any consolation to you Abbas (which I doubt), I had to pay for and attend the CSWIP WI course to be able to sit the CSWIP WI exam, despite having been previuosly certified and working as a CSWIP WI for 10 years. During this period the rules on eligibility to sit the CSWIP exam changed to include mandatory attendance at the CSWIP WI training course and I had let my certification lapse due to lack of funds (and time) to maintain all my certifications.
15:04 May-30-2011 John Brunk Engineering, NDT Level III, Self employed, USA, Joined Oct 1999 125
As an outside agent (contractor) Level III I work mostly with U>S> companies that follow SNT-TC-1A. When a candidate has met the requirements I give the employer a document that states he or she has met the requirements of THE EMPLOYER'S WRITTEN PRACTICE for experience, training, general, specific and examinations for qualification to do specific types of work with specific types of equipment to examine specific types of materials and/or products. For example, if the job was doing only fluorescent, water-washable penetrant testing of castings the document would say that. If the candidate had passed specific and practical exams for manual contact ultrasonic testing per the ASME Code and AWS D1.1 that would be stated on the document. Additional training and exams are required when a new method or new equipment or a new type of product comes along. I don't know if defining the extent and limits of an individual's certification is a common practice among companies that use SNT-TC-1A, but I insist upon it if I am going to sign my name to anything. This way a person looking for a new job can have something helpful that should not mislead a prospective employer.
Thanks for providing an entertaining read, the sound of violins could be heard and tears welled in my eyes as I read your prose.
How about you harden up and take the financial hit like the rest of us and get on with it. What makes you so special to think you donÂ’t have to pay? There are plenty of guys around with more experience than you that have paid for the PCN conversion training and exam.
14:43 May-31-2011 Arun Engineering, ASNT Level III & CSWIP 3.1 Welding Inspector , India, Joined Mar 2010 2
I agree that some Level III may give Level II certification without training but it dosn't happen only in India. There are many professionally ethical persons in India. ISNT which is under NCB certification it gives Level II certificates by properly conducting training and it is independent of ASNT. So there is no need to comment whether Indian Level III have ethics. Giving fake certification is present in whole world not only in India.
I have objection when you say ... ASNT should close their shop .... you are not the one who will decide that ok ... There are good and bad practices in every business.. so just live with that .... so if you want to pay your bills and mortages ... better move your ass and do what is required to maintain your job...... instead of getting sympathy by starting such threads .. and who knows whether you are genuine ASNT certificate holder or not??????
18:13 May-31-2011 keith baldam NDT Inspector, welding institute, United Kingdom, Joined Apr 2011 10
I have read must of the threads some postive some peronel, a dig at previous employers.
But any way you look at whether ASNT, PCN, or Even CSWIP. They are all money making rackets when a Doctor or Engineer Qualifies does he sit test every few years???
Instead of you moaning and bitching start a way to have a go at these organizations, because
they are the ones that saturated the market, if my Brit colleagues remember when mass redundancy were made by British Steel, all these establishment took any body with money until accidents occured then they tighten up. So do not blame companies blame the organization to increase the level of entry and skill.
19:11 May-31-2011 Joe Buckley Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT, Level X NDT, BINDT, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 1999 389
I don't think That one can fairly describe any of these as 'money-making rackets' they are all non-profit organisations, and I've been involved with both ASNT and PCN/BINDT enough to know that no-one gets rich from them.
It is important to understand the difference between the different certifications schemes. and when they are appropriate.
Employer certification schemes such s SNT-TC1A are potentially cheaper to operate. but do transfer all the responsibility for quality to the employer - you get what you pay for
With centrally certified schemes such as PCN, ACCP, or the theory part of ASNT (vitally different from SNT although they get confused) qualifications the certifying body takes responsibility for quality - auditing that worldwide is not cheap. For PCN to have credibility it is essential that all PCN certificate holders meet the necessary standard. If as anjafo says there are PCN qualified staff out there who cannot do the job that concerns me, and should be investigated. Hopefully their incompetence relates to areas outside the scope of the exam...
Its a complex (and potentially boring for most of us compare to the techie stuff) subject, but it is very important.
23:46 May-31-2011 JOHN BRUNK Engineering, NDT Level III, Self employed, USA, Joined Oct 1999 125
Continuing education is a requirement for maintaining credentials in several fields other than NDT; but it does seem to me that truly learning new things about your field is different from having to repeat essentially the same exams every few years.
08:47 Jun-01-2011 Nigel Armstrong Engineering, - Specialist services, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 2000 1020
Whilst its easy to place the blame on the Level III's and the training/certification bodies, the equipment and plant owners have end responsiblilty for safety. My opinion is that these latter prefer a paper QA/QC approach - procedures, personnel certificates and system audits to replace practically-skilled and experienced personnel capable of critical review of proposed NDE procedures and techniques and of cross-checking NDE personnel working to those procedures.
The welders on a project are continually monitored from initial qualification to the WPS through to NDE of their completed welds. Yet who monitors the sensitive work of the NDE techncians - nowadays? Nobody! How many incompetents are there at work in all the big fabrication yards, many of which are situated in the Middle east where employment costs are lower than elsewhere? How many welds have been passed OK when the UT technican relies solely on the digital read out for location of the origin of displayed signals without any clue of the fundamentals of UT?
I think we should also look further than the conventional NDE methods to the advanced methods sucha s digital radiography, advanced UT and all the many other advanced methods more frequently utilised. In PV fabrication it is often the welding engineer without appropriate training or skills with assigned responsibility for NDE whereas today a Level III will struggle to keep pace with the advanced trechniques employed.
Until such time as ASME Code for example has a Section V which stipulates appropriate NDE procedure and personnel pre-contract qualifications akin to the welding procedure and personnel requirements of ASME IX then many employers will continue to be disdainful of whether or not their NDE employees are competent for critical inspections.
I also agree that its not only SNT-TC-1A personnel who may be woefully inadequate, the same can be applied to any certification system because of the inherent impulse to pass candidates rather than fail due to the fact that such candidates have been trained to the approved syllabus by accredited training organisations who do not wish to gain a reputation as being "tough".
Certification is only a record of what the technician has done, demonstration shows clearly what the technician is or is not capable of.
As for paying, if Abbas does not want to pay for approved training to enable him to sit the required examination that is his prerogative and eventually he may be fortunate enough to find an employer who will fund such training and examination. Until such time I estimate that currently his chances of employment in the Middle East are as good as the majority of self-funded ISO 9712/EN473/PCN qualified personnel. However I believe in future SNT certification for advanced methods is less likely to be accepted than central certification, e.g. PCN as someday EPC's and Owners will realise that the ASNT Level III exams do not include these advanced methods so how are they authorised to certify level II's?
As a coda, what do people do when they encounter incompetent personnel? Fortunately I have not encountered techncians who do not know how to hold a probe or yoke! Abbas surely this must be hyperbole? When I notice any deficiency in skills i seek to address it as swiftly as possible through quick practical demonstration. If this does not result in adequate improvement on test pieces then he shall not qualify.
13:10 Jun-01-2011 Phil NDT Inspector, Radiation Safety , BINDT, MIAQP, United Kingdom, Joined Mar 2009 151
I like Keith have been in NDT long enough to remember the closure of the Steel works and one of the options they were offered for retraining was NDT they took courses for 48 weeks which they were allowed to count as site experience. Whereas those of us who were in NDT already had to have proper site experience. CSWIP did that in 1982 - 83, also in the late 70's CSWIP resit failures for UT was running at about 90% this was Technicians with over 10 years experience in the field told you need to do a critical sizing course and you will pass the resit. Money grabbing I thought so at the time I was only a junior technician but it put me off taking CSWIP exams.
18:26 Jun-01-2011 Nigel Armstrong Engineering, - Specialist services, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 2000 1020
Differrent story now Phil, TWI clued up when people went driving north and south another couple of 100 miles past TWI Abington and Paisley to go where one was treated with some respect. Now that CSWIP has tapped into overseas market the pass rate (especially WI) must be sky high!
i never begrudge the newbie whatever their background as long as they pull their weight and dont expect a free ride. How many of the ex-BS guys are still involved though, not that many, I wager. The current "teenie" ex-BS equivalent NDT newbies are returning heroes from Afghanistan!
A strong masochistic streak is required to accept the constant petty humilations of this trade, especially at the mid-career stage. At one time after 10 years as a level 3 I was scanner tech to a narcisstisic ex-Kwik Fit fitter with all the nous of a retarded parrot (my sincere apologies to retarded parrots)! Never mind tenacity wins through and now I'm allowed to prepare workpacks by my new masters!
In a few years time there wont be any warplanes (I always love it when as with nuclear power, the bean counters do the anti nuclear anti war machine mobs' work for them!!!) So there will be diminishing numbers of ex-RAF NDT techs to fill up a lot of civvie streeet NDT jobs.
Perhaps thats the mettle of a true NDT contractor, the trendsetters and pathfinders of the pay-your own-way generation, pay tens of thousands of your own money to be of better service to the capitalists. What happened to us has now been heaped on all undergrads! Well all is well with UK society as long as Eton, Harrow, Chaerterhouse and Winchester public schools remain registered charities - 3 cheers for the financial cupidity of our better-offs!!!!
18:55 Jun-01-2011 Nogel Armstrong Engineering, - Specialist services, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 2000 1020
If you read what I have written you will see my comments do not blame the newbie, but the certification body for changing their rules so as to qualify for a large amount of government money spent on the exams and courses. Through out most of my career I have been involved in training of less experienced technicians this was interesting to say the least, especially when I was told by one employer they had got special permission to work on a site but I would have to teach a CSWIP Rad level 2 how to do the job, I wanted to know how he managed to qualify as a level2 if he could not do the job ?
17:28 Jun-02-2011 Jon Wallis NDT Inspector, - , Netherlands, Joined Feb 2010 547
I also remember the re-training of the redundant British Steel guys, at the time i was working in the netherlands and we got them as contract level 2's. They fell mainly into three categories; 1. they were useless, 2. they, (or their wives, mothers etc.) couldn't handle being away from home, 3. they spent as much time and money as possible in the bars and hot-spots of Rotterdam.
I now work in Germany where they presently have re-training schemes for ex Opal workers and the like and these guys are sent to a training school whose only purpose is to get them qualified to level 2 in multiple methods with the barest minimum of practical training. They are then sent into the workplace and are expected to earn money fot their new employer and they haven't got a clue.
If you take on 10 newbee's, at the end of one month half will have left and after three months you may have 2 that are starting to show some glimmer of promise.
If the practical training actually took place on the job as part of the qualification, this would at least give people a chance to see that they need to work night shifts, weekends, overtime etc.
17:56 Jun-02-2011 Nigel Armstrong Engineering, - Specialist services, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 2000 1020
I apologise that my post conveyed to you the message that I thought you were "blaming the newbie" - that was certainly not my intent. Sorry.
It is ironic that posts regularly appear from people (usually who have spent their own money) keen to develop a career in NDT who cannot get a start whilst others (ex-BS, ex-Opel, ex-armed forces) have a lot of govt money thrown at them for a continuation rate of maybe 20% as per Jon's experience.
Well engineering in general cannot attract bright and committed youngsters in sufficient quantity to replace the ageing workforce, so in my opinion industry knows it has to accept low standards in order to fill vacancies relatively cheaply. Has anybody seen any indication otherwise?
18:31 Jun-02-2011 Phil NDT Inspector, Radiation Safety , BINDT, MIAQP, United Kingdom, Joined Mar 2009 151
I had similar experiences with the ex British Steel guys but a few were trying to do the job.
But of course now we have employers trying to use virtual training instead of proper practical experience of the method, I think the virtual training is a good refresher and revision tool but never to be used as a replacement for practical experience.
Yes I agree that trainee Technicians should realise that they have to work shifts and overtime as required, as that is part and parcel of NDT.
18:39 Jun-02-2011 Phil NDT Inspector, Radiation Safety , BINDT, MIAQP, United Kingdom, Joined Mar 2009 151
Most of my training courses and exams have been with my own money, sometimes reimbursed sometimes not, but always to increase my knowledge of NDT and to keep myself in gainfull employment.
But yes it is difficult to attract people into engineering this will have to be reversed if the standards are going to remain high. But as you say the bean counters will look as always to cut costs and when things go wrong blame everyone but themselves.
I dont hide behind a cloak of anonymity so I mention no name. If the desciption fits the person you name that may be purely coincidental. We are not necessarily as unique as characters as we might like to think we are.
But I thank you for the opportunity to allow me one correction - I should have spelt "narcissistic" correctly.
ASNT and or SNT-TC-1A still have its place in the world of NDT.
The problem with PCN is you canÂ’t take PCN until you have experience and you canÂ’t get experience without a PCN.
ASNT is a great system to get a person started in NDT, to gain some experience before taking a more challenging exam that demonstrate a higher level competence that PCN and other exams requires.
You have come across some so called technicians with dubious certification that had a low skill standard. The blame does not lie with these trainees, the Â“yet to be techniciansÂ” were doing their best to get into the industry.
It is the ASNT level 3Â’s that gave the technicians their level 2 qualification, which was at fault.
11:12 Jun-10-2011 Phil NDT Inspector, Radiation Safety , BINDT, MIAQP, United Kingdom, Joined Mar 2009 151
Now the person who has called for ASNT to close shop is now looking for employment and listing his ASNT level II qualifications, in job seek seems either very strange or as usual two faced complain on the one hand but still prepared to use the qualification to gain employment.
So make up your mind should they close up shop or should they instead have better control of the certification system.
13:05 Jun-10-2011 Nigel Armstrong Engineering, - Specialist services, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 2000 1020
I agree, Abbas' OP read to me as a whinge about newly-qualified techs with the same Level II certification as him flooding the market and undercutting experienced techs' wage rates, but its a whinge most of us have at least thought if not expressed publicly. Which British tech of the '80's never moaned about the British Steel guys or military personnel or any other perceived threat to their livelihood?. But it highlights the issue that certification masks an enormous range of competencies, from the not-at-all to the highly-skilled - only demonstration can reveal skill level.
Give him a break though, he has to work (presumably he enjoys NDT as we do) and he cant claim the certification the certification he desires but does not possess to give him a head start over the chasing mob. Either he cites his SNT-TC-1A quals, meaning any potential employer will have to arrange new certification for him, or he keeps quiet and just says Level UT/MT/PT or similar.
Though I do think he is pushing it a bit far expecting special case exemption from the EN473 requirement for documentary evidence of approved training meeting the certification body's requirements for examination eligibility. Then again it was worth trying - you dont get if you dont ask! I bet the PCN examiner though,t "cheeky blighter, he is out to ruin a nice little earner"!
18:45 Mar-17-2013 S R G PRABHU Consultant, AUT specialist, FREELANCE, India, Joined Aug 2008 61
I understand how you feel about the current situation.
It is obvious that many level II techs certified by ASNT level III's are not competent.As many gents said here, it is an employer based certification ,only will create an impression to the prospective employer that one has some experience in the method.
I am an ASNT level 3 myself in two methods,but I too lost some client jobs because the companies give priority to EN 473 certified level 3's and I should say that most of the PCN level 3 's I came across being very knowledgeable and command over codes stds, procedures etc,compared to some young ASNT level 3's.
Please note these operator companies are the ones for whom I already worked before in different projects.
So, what I have decided is , to go and get training and sit for the PCN level 2 exam in UT in June, and prove myself that I am a competent UT operator.Then I plan to go for PCN level 2 in PA, and TOFD and next year, of course PCN level 3, instead of complaining and worrying myself.Yes, I will spend a few thousand dollars for these exams, but know what? Will make it very fast...after getting my PCN and securing a nice job with that!!!
Life is change...Take the challenges in whatever form ,prove yourself you can do it before proving others.....
Finally, I have gone through some of the model questions in PCN UT, and definitely they are far above the ASNT LEVEL 2 standard given by many Level 3's.
I wish you good luck in your EN473/ISO9712 level 2 exams which I am sure you are going to appear sooner or later...
19:56 Mar-17-2013 Michel Couture NDT Inspector, , consultant, Canada, Joined Sep 2006 606
My hat off to you my friend. Good positive attitude and the will to go the extra step to prove himself.
Indeed, it is sad that people who have the power to make decision do not have to ability to forsee the ramification of their decision and in the end, it is the technician who works hard which end up paying for it. I have seen companies who are very serious with ASNT, NAS410 or other certifications scheme and have also seen the "others". Unfortunately, we often only hear from the last. This is why I recommend anyone to got to the troubble of geting nationally recognised certification.
I'm afraid to say .but I think that only happens in india? because in some countries particularly in the Philippines they are very strict in ndt certificates..we also have a 3 year schooling in NDT, and some training centers give a training for ndt basic,leve I and II..but you should have at least college degree or equivalent. It doesn't matter whether it's snt or pcn..as long as you are really trained in the right manner and acquire the certificate legally and you are confident to do the inspection and able to communicate with the clients, any employer will hire you. they hire you base on your experience..most of the time, because I've met a lot of technician who can't explain the basic procedure in ndt, and some of my them admit that they just bought the certificates...and that is really unfair for the technician who dedicate their time in one company and learned that their soon to be supervisor doesn't know anything..lol, im just stating a fact..
10:53 Jul-06-2013 srinivas NDT Inspector, , kalva engineers pvt ltd, India, Joined Oct 2012 1
my friend..I didn't said indians... I said india..
for me its doesn't matter what we have whether its ASNT or PCN.. as long as we are competent and to prove that we are capable to do the inspection and pass all examinations and meet their requirements, I don't see any problem with that. it's all about the place that we are going to work, because some place especially US prefer ASNT, and Australia both hires ASNT and PCN, middles east most uses ASNT certificates, I am thankful to say that I'm working right now in an international NDT company based in the US and still don't have the PCN certificate. ..
I am in a legal request from ASNT To Sue about your comment sir.Many people working in industry as ASNT Level III ,Your comment is not correct except some isolotion incident, Any have you are not upto the mark ,have a comment on people ,
Please Mr.Rolf ,please don't post it all,NDT .Net is a forum all over the country sorry world will look it evvery day .
These bombaywala make it non sense
you are not hqaving any identity ,you are only Freelancer ,but making big comment ,
In the industry people make a fear about making comment ,
you are not upto the mark or genius to make a comment
Any have nexxt time you should think ,before make a comment
13:55 Jul-12-2013 Jon Wallis NDT Inspector, - , Netherlands, Joined Feb 2010 547
It's a bit rich when someone with a gmail address "ndtalpha" and an untraceable name "Neela" pontificates about another forum contributor and suggests he has no identity.
Ranting and raving is easy without taking the consequences!
12:46 Jul-13-2013 Ed T. Other, ASNT Level III, UT, RT, MT, PT, VT, NDT Level III, Saudi Arabia, Joined Sep 2011 169
I didn't know you could certify as a ASNT Level II and take your certs with you.
Abbas, you said you did your ASNT Level II in 2000?
They should have expired a long time ago. In act, they should have expired as soon as you left the employ of the company that certified you. I believe that applies in India as well.
I'm seeing alot of ASNT bashing here. Thats why ACCP came to be. When you have ACCP you demonstrate your skills and you take your certs with you.
Even a central certification scheme is not foolproof. Thas why its up to the Level III's to qualify and certify individuals.
One of the problems I see in the USA is employers certify individuals and thhen they leave for more money. Employers don't like that. I guess its an economic thing.
14:41 Jul-16-2013 Amy NDT Inspector, - -, USA, Joined Jan 2009 85
I agree. I see a lot of certification bashing on here. I am certified through ASNT and also NAS 410, which is the technical equivalent to EN 4179, as well as a few other schemes over the years. No matter what certification scheme I am certified to, it does not make me any more or less competent, I am still qualified to requirements. I worked in R&D for years and was not certified at all, but trained and proficient in my position. As Level III's it is our responsibility to make sure your personnel are up to par. A piece of paper means nothing, no matter who it is from. It is only a start to verifying competency.
As far as the leaving a company for another, yes, I see it often as well. I canâ€™t blame anyone for looking for more experience and advancement. Employers looking for long term personnel also need to take some responsibility for this and compensate these people when they acquire a new skill. Why would people stay at Company A when the standard rate is $10/hr more at Company B or learn a new method? Iâ€™ve run into it myself when my career has become stagnant, and chose to move on. I work for a great company now, but my growth is limited. I will either have to accept leveling out or go. I believe this is a big factor in the turnover of NDT personnel.
Dont you think, it is your moral responsibility to communicate to ASNT regarding such level III personnels, who provide certifications without training & examination. Its spoiling our name & also the name of ASNT.
Whilst you are on your high horse ride over to Columbus, Ohio with NDT outlaws strapped to your saddle and donate the reward money to a charity for real impoverished NDT techs thirsting for their next beer!
11:04 Aug-05-2013 George Shields NDT Inspector, , United Kingdom, Joined Oct 2012 30
obviously doesnt only happen in India. It happens all over with different certs.
If the employer checks the certs before employment and carries out a small interview/competency test prior then there shall be no problems.
Dont judge the masses on the actions of the few.
15:40 Aug-05-2013 Joe Buckley Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT, Level X NDT, BINDT, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 1999 389
People seem to be missing the point that the SNT-TC-1A documents are a guideline.
Employers using an internal certification system can get employees with whatever level of competence or incompetence they wish to pay for.
Similarly their customers can decide when they audit the QA system whether it meets their requirements.
Used properly the employer certification approach can deliver knowledgeable, appropriately qualified employees, and gives a framework where they can get detailed sector-specific training to a level that a more general central certification scheme could never match.
Used improperly it can deliver incompetent, even dangerous systems. But in a company that is willing to allow that there are probably many other issues...
I thought of sharing an experience I had today,relavent to this thread .....
Just for intoduction I am involved in certain engineering assessment for production facility of one of the major oil & gas producer in UAE. One gentleman from client sides (holding good position) comes to my desk and enquires about PCN/CSWIP certification schemes and levels of certification and claims to be expert about ASNT certification.
Good! I explained all about PCN/CSWIP ( certifying bodies BINDT/TWI), status of EN 473/ISO 9712.
Gentleman: Well in our country (Native of so called Gentleman) everyone is following PCN now a days, is good and we are also going to replace ASNT with. Goes on telling.....As far as ASNT NDT Level I and ASNT NDT Level II certification is concerned INDIAN ASNT LEVEL IIIs are issuing these certificates to their wife too.
I understood the level of expertise and explained all about employer based NDT Level I & II certification as per SNT TC IA/ CP 189 and ASNT NDT Level II (Central certification).
Even after this he writes a statement on paper.... ASNT NDT Level III is autorised to issue ASNT NDT Level I & II certificate and asks me if he is wrong? I replied yes you are wrong because there is no ASNT NDT Level I certification and ASNT Level II is issued by central body or (may be some authorized body I am not awrae of). When I says that statement is wrong. He Looses his temper and asks me you are saying I am wrong ... I am expert!!!!! you have to prove it.
Ok, I was trying him to guide to asnt website for clarification, meanwhile two ASNT NDT Level III comes one from Client side and one contractor???
He puts same question to both of them------ ASNT NDT Level III is authorised to issue ASNT NDT Level I and ASNT NDT Level II certificates or not? Reply from Both of them was YES!!!!!!
ASNT NDT Level III from contractor side was known to me I explained him, he understood, agreed, but agrees with gentleman again (Surprising!!! I could understand his point because he was from contractor side with very few NDT personnel having cetntral certification. In case he agrees with me, he may loose the service contract that has been awarded or has to opt for central certification for his personnel). I dont care about another level III from client side because he might not be aware???
Now at this stage again he put same question and keep on shouting that you telling me that I am wrong....(I am client you are contractor you are in my office and telling me, I am wrong, your salary comes from the work we have awarded to you. I will complain to your higher management or say sorry). I am metallurgist I am an engineer what is ASNT Level III... a technician... I can pass any time.
I could have slapped him but being resposible to my employer I kept calm and apologised.
Now I am under inner conflict.... Lost two hours, Being right on the concept, being in possession of much higher academic qualification and in no fear of loosing my job why I was bearing all that........Leave it, it was a bad day.... but EDUCATIVE....How peoples dont care about ethics when it comes to money?
Idea to write this all is to seek views about How such situation can be avoided.....any better solution....?? Can there be an initiative from respective certifcation body to educate/update major clients and certificate holders??
I know,I could have been diplomatic, but is that the only way?
Focus was that ASNT certifcation is not good, I agree that there are some stupids in India Issuing NDT certificates without following the guidelines but these certificates are not ASNT certificates, On the other hand there are many world class NDT experts who capable to perform much better that many others who have been certified as per reputed X Y Z certification scheme?
Why do people generalize the statement..... rather than having a performance demonstartion/qualification procedure in place????
Assuming that I might be wrong,I have decided to post this,so that I can rectify errors.
Thanks in anticipation for your comments, suggestions...........
06:32 Oct-27-2013 frank ding Consultant, , TUV SUD, China, Joined Oct 2013 9
there are 2 different certification systerm, one is 2nd party qualification, and the another is 3rd party certification. In my opinon, 2nd party certificate can meet employer demand very well, but 3rd party certification is more fair because it is independent.
I don't think that 3rd party certificate is the best solution for NDT personnel certification, but it is a good solution if the regoin doesn't have good training, examination and qualficiation system. But nobody can say ASNT level II should be out of demand from the market because it is very popular and wide accpeted at USA.
please anybody help me for starting my future with mechanical engg,i have decide to learn NDT courses plz tellme which one is best(ASNT-2 or PCN or any other ouality control courses) for coming future in all over area.I am waiting for u r valuable suggestions
if you have ASNT TC A1 tis certification is not valid except for internal use, however there is ASNT certification with is defferent and it's regignised .
also pcn certification is widley recognised but the exam is more difficult.
me i prefere PCN BINDT the best one and recognised around the world
You are arrogant and wrong ( but mostly arrogant)
Read SNT-TC-1A. After testing and completion of experience hours the level III may test and certify LVL I and II personnel. Thanks you for looking down your nose at the technicians and good luck passing the level III that you assume that you could pass at any time