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Career Discussions
Abbas Zoher Bombaywala
NDT Inspector
Free Lance, India, Joined Jul 2007, 92

Abbas Zoher Bombaywala

NDT Inspector
Free Lance,
India,
Joined Jul 2007
92
05:48 Feb-11-2009
Company appointed level III

Dear Seniors.

My question is that can any Heavy Fabrication company having a ASME stamps can appoint any Degree holder having good experience in NDT can appoint him as the Company Level III
And if yes then can that company level III can certify any one as a level II or he is only for signing the NDT procedures.

Regards
Abbas

1
 
 Reply 
 
Nigel Armstrong
Engineering, - Specialist services
United Kingdom, Joined Oct 2000, 1096

Nigel Armstrong

Engineering, - Specialist services
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 2000
1096
11:20 Feb-11-2009
Re: Company appointed level III
In Reply to Abbas Zoher Bombaywala at 05:48 Feb-11-2009 (Opening).

Hello Abbas

My opinion is:

ASME Code cites SNT-TC-1A, a recommended practice, offering guidelines for NDT personnel certification. Its only mandatory requirement is for a company written practice (WP) describing how the company certifies its NDT personnel at all levels. This should be supplied for acceptance to the client as part of a pre-award contract document package. In general, if the client accepts the WP which describes the company's level III certification program in terms of education, experience and examination (if required) and also states that this level III is responsible for certification of level II personnel then no Authorised Inspector should have any problem with it. Much also depends on the integrity of the appointed level III who should not certify personnel beyond his/her own capabilities. As new inspection methods are introduced - computerised radiography, phased array UT, TOFD then it will be necessary to review the certification paths for these methods.

Regards

Nigel

1
 
 Reply 
 
Abbas Zoher Bombaywala
NDT Inspector
Free Lance, India, Joined Jul 2007, 92

Abbas Zoher Bombaywala

NDT Inspector
Free Lance,
India,
Joined Jul 2007
92
12:07 Feb-11-2009
Re: Company appointed level III
In Reply to Nigel Armstrong at 11:20 Feb-11-2009 .

Thanks Nigel,

any one who sees your name for the first time will read niel amstrong only he will only realize its nigel on second look :)

 
 Reply 
 
Nigel Armstrong
Engineering, - Specialist services
United Kingdom, Joined Oct 2000, 1096

Nigel Armstrong

Engineering, - Specialist services
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 2000
1096
12:51 Feb-11-2009
Re: Company appointed level III
In Reply to Abbas Zoher Bombaywala at 12:07 Feb-11-2009 .

Your are welcome Abbas.

You are very right regarding my name. It used to bring a lot of comments, especially on my travels. I was in Africa when the illustrious Neil "moon-walked" and everybody used to call me Mr Spaceman and Lunar-tic etc. How I laughed! Doesnt happen so much now but its good to know the family name is recognised all over. Of course many people recognise it for Louis Armstrong more than Neil!

 
 Reply 
 
Juan Amado
Engineering, Inspection
Arco Industrial, S.A., Panama, Joined Nov 2001, 44

Juan Amado

Engineering, Inspection
Arco Industrial, S.A.,
Panama,
Joined Nov 2001
44
13:52 Feb-11-2009
Re: Company appointed level III
In Reply to Nigel Armstrong at 11:20 Feb-11-2009 .

I think Nigels description is very accurate, I would only add that among the level III's responsibilities would be to:
1. Verify that the level I and level II prospects complie with the program's education, experience and examination requirements.
2. Administer examinations to the level I and level II hopefulls
3. Prepare NDT procedures in accordance with the codes or standards that govern the type of work being done by the organization.

Regards,
Juan Amado

 
 Reply 
 
John Brunk
Engineering, NDT Level III
Self employed, part-time, USA, Joined Oct 1999, 161

John Brunk

Engineering, NDT Level III
Self employed, part-time,
USA,
Joined Oct 1999
161
16:12 Feb-11-2009
Re: Company appointed level III
In Reply to Nigel Armstrong at 11:20 Feb-11-2009 .

I agree with the responses by Nigel Armstrong and Juan Amado but would like to add to them. A fabricator with an ASME Code stamp must also be periodically audited and approved by ASME and by the company's liability insurance carrier. They also must approve of the qualifications of the responsible Level III. The fabricator will also require the approval on not only these agencies and some specific customer, but also of all customers in the long run. I have found that some customers are more demanding than others and it is not unusual to review all qualification documents for everyone performing NDT. The same thing is essentially true in other industries in the US where NADCAP, MIL-STD-271, etc. govern. It can come down to satisfying an individual auditor, and in many ways each audit is a unique sampling experience. As part-time outside agent for a fabricator I maintain both ASNT Level III and ACCP Level III certifications in the four methods used by the fabricator, and each year along with my eye examination report submit a summary of related continuing education and experience.

 
 Reply 
 
Nigel Armstrong
Engineering, - Specialist services
United Kingdom, Joined Oct 2000, 1096

Nigel Armstrong

Engineering, - Specialist services
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 2000
1096
18:06 Feb-11-2009
Re: Company appointed level III
In Reply to John Brunk at 16:12 Feb-11-2009 .

Valid points from both Juan and John, I missed the point which John picked up that Abbas may be referring either to the appointment either of an employee of the fabricator or an outside agency.

Careful reading of ASME V, Article 1, sub-section A, T-120 does not result in a general statement of requirements because much depends on whether the referencing Code specifies qualifications or not - even the WP is only mandatory for ASME when the referencing Code refers to Article 1 of ASME Section V -

"For those documents that directly reference this Article for the qualification of NDE personnel, the qualification shall be in accordance with their employer’s written practice."

On initial reading clause T-120(e) would seem to suggest that if there is a WP it must be in accordance with either SNT-TC-1A or ANSI/ASNT CP-189, however T-120 (f) quickly dispels that notion as it allows other national or international central certification schemes to replace them, provided it is so written in the WP.

Its a very tricky subject as there are all grades of quality for both centrally-certificated ( e.g. ISO 9712/ASNT NDT Level 3) and SNT-TC-1A appointed level III's - some with strong technical ability others not. In Abbas' case, coming from heavy fabrication it is very likely that advanced inspections will be undertaken - TOFD and phased array using Code Case 2235 and computerised radiography to ASME V Appendices III and IV. The technical demands on the level III increase significantly with the adoption of these techniques. It is thus important that the appointed level III has the desire and wherwithal to be able to demonstrate the ability to control the advanced inspections and certify those carrying out such inspections.

 
 Reply 
 
Oliviero Oldani
NDT Inspector,
Quality Control srl, Italy, Joined Oct 2008, 414

Oliviero Oldani

NDT Inspector,
Quality Control srl,
Italy,
Joined Oct 2008
414
21:59 Feb-11-2009
Re: Company appointed level III
In Reply to Abbas Zoher Bombaywala at 05:48 Feb-11-2009 (Opening).

Dear Abbas,
ASME BPC Code has several sections which require different qualification and certification for NDE personnel.
For example ASME sect. VIII div. 1 requires only the Certification of competency for MT (See appendix 6 par. 6-2). This means that Written practice is not required nor SNT-TC-1A.
For RT and UT method, the same ASME section requires NDE personnel qualification and certification according to employer Written Practice. And SNT-TC-1A shall be used as guideline to establish their Written Practice [See ASME VIII/1 UW-51(a)(2)].
This means that SNT-TC-1A requirements are mandatory including the examination of level III.
In this case a Manufacturer ASME “U” stamp holder shall appoint a level III by examination; the stamp holder can avoid some part of the level III examination if he has a valid ASNT or ACCP certification.
Contrarily, a Manufacturer “N” stamp holder can’t avoid any part of level III examination, because he shall apply also the NB-5500 which states some additional requirements to the SNT-TC-1A.
Anyway the Written Practice contains the responsibilities for all qualification level.
It is a level III responsibility to examine and QUALIFY the NDE operators, but the CERTIFICATION is responsibility of the employer. Furthermore the level III has the procedure approval responsibility.

 
 Reply 
 
tj
tj
12:19 Feb-12-2009
Re: Company appointed level III
In Reply to Oliviero Oldani at 21:59 Feb-11-2009 .

I can see where you are coming from Oliviero, however, ASME VIII UW-51 is requiring the use of a guideline (SNT-TC-1A) as a guidline for written practice. It is my interpretation that there are still no requirements for the contents of the written practice as SNT-TC-1A has no requirements. This is where you hope that the responsible level III has his stuff together.

 
 Reply 
 
John Brunk
Engineering, NDT Level III
Self employed, part-time, USA, Joined Oct 1999, 161

John Brunk

Engineering, NDT Level III
Self employed, part-time,
USA,
Joined Oct 1999
161
17:46 Feb-12-2009
Re: Company appointed level III
In Reply to tj at 12:19 Feb-12-2009 .

To follow SNT-TC-1A the user "should" review all of the detailed recommendations of the document and modify them, as necessary, to meet particular needs. So even how to use the recommended practice is not an instruction but a recommendation. But a rational interpretation of "particular needs" must surely be the needs of the customer and of the company to comply with applicable specifications and statutes and to avoid losing lawsuits. The statement about what a Level III should be capable of doing is also a "should" and contains several things that are subject to still more interpretation. A candidate for a Level III job might either try to properly determine that he/she could adequately serve the employer's best interests, or else focus on convincing the employer that whatever he/she may have to offer is sufficient for the employer's needs. Looking at it this way can seem pretty scary, but the same is true of many other jobs and of like in general. Integrity can be demonstrated but it is hard to guarantee in advance without refernces and experience to check.

 
 Reply 
 
Oliviero Oldani
NDT Inspector,
Quality Control srl, Italy, Joined Oct 2008, 414

Oliviero Oldani

NDT Inspector,
Quality Control srl,
Italy,
Joined Oct 2008
414
21:30 Feb-15-2009
Re: Company appointed level III
In Reply to John Brunk at 17:46 Feb-12-2009 .

I understand that SNT-TC-1A use the term "should" and the document has not mandatory requirements. But ASME BPV code requires a Written Practice which is based on the guideline.
Since this requirement, how do you think to follow the guideline?
The general interpretation in our country is to use the minimum contents of the guidline and us as it is.
This means that the "should" in the SNT-TC-1A change as "shall" into Written Practice

 
 Reply 
 
Joe Buckley
Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 1999, 524

Joe Buckley

Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 1999
524
22:10 Feb-15-2009
Re: Company appointed level III
In Reply to John Brunk at 17:46 Feb-12-2009 .

The point which can easily get lost here is that whatever arrangements are put in place need to meet with the approval of the end customer.

Few customers will knowingly accept an underqualified level III. THis is the main reason the ASNT/PCN etc qualifications exist- to take the responsibility for defining a generally accepted level of competence (at least in the specific area of NDT Knowledge- of course a lot else is required to do the job well...)

Companies going a different route need to be very clear about how they define the competences required.

 
 Reply 
 

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