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LECOEUR ELECTRONIQUE
The Specialist of electronics for ultrasonic testing.
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Technical Discussions
Dr. Ahmed Yamani
Director, - President & CEO
Yamani Institute of Technology, Algeria, Joined Nov 2001, 23

Dr. Ahmed Yamani

Director, - President & CEO
Yamani Institute of Technology,
Algeria,
Joined Nov 2001
23
11:31 Apr-18-2009
27 years old 60" water pipeline

Dear All,

I was asked by a client to look at a burried 60" pipeline carrying water for the last 25 years over a distance of 450 km and come up with an appropriate inspection technique.
this pipeline has the following:
- 60" diameter of Carbon Steel Internally Cement Coated
- Pipe Thickness = 14.27mm (average)
- Twin Pipes- A,B.
- Steel Grade = X60 & X52

About 50 bars on discharge of each station

About 12,000 cubic meter per hour

SIX Pupming Stations on each line

- These are buried pipelines with Cathodic Protection system installed.
- Water is flowing through these lines for the last 25 years.
- Cement mortar is dropped through out the pipeline, restricting the flow now.
- Every hundred or hundred fifty meters there is an expected heap of cement debris lying in the pipelines covering at 6 O’Clock position, about quarter to one third of the pipe diameter.
Objectives:
1-To study the metal thickness loss of 60” diameter pipelines without exposing the buried pipelines.
2-To find out a good technology that can discover the locations where cement mortar lining is dropped.
3-To study the possibility of internal cleaning , the dropped cement mortar lining

Your feedback is very much appreciated.

 
 Reply 
 
John O'Brien
Consultant, -
Chevron ETC , USA, Joined Jan 2000, 280

John O'Brien

Consultant, -
Chevron ETC ,
USA,
Joined Jan 2000
280
19:13 Apr-19-2009
Re: 27 years old 60" water pipeline
In Reply to Dr. Ahmed Yamani at 11:31 Apr-18-2009 (Opening).

This sounds very much like the twin 60" pipelines from Jubail to Riyadh in Saudi Arabia. They are typical of an installation where no thought was given to in service intergrity inspection. If you do not want to conduct digs the only approach is an internal device. The problem on many water pipelines is that they use valves that will not permit the passage of an in-line tool. The other challenge is that normally the client wants little to no interruption of product.

Advice in the past has been simple - order piggable valves that you can install temporarily to inspect selected sections you probably only need two. Plan to install a bolt up launcher and receiver system to launch pigs and receive pigged out product and receive the pigs. If substantial amounts of lining have seperated you may need to do multiple cleaning runs to get the material out of the pipeline section.

Following cleaning run an inspection tool - MFL would be the obvious choice but you might also want to talk to DNV Oslo about the Acoustic Resonance Pig. Also since this is probably drinking water you will probably have to heavy flush the sections between runs to not have drinking water full of dissolved cement lining.

 
 Reply 
 
Dr. Ahmed Yamani
Director, - President & CEO
Yamani Institute of Technology, Algeria, Joined Nov 2001, 23

Dr. Ahmed Yamani

Director, - President & CEO
Yamani Institute of Technology,
Algeria,
Joined Nov 2001
23
19:52 Apr-20-2009
Re: 27 years old 60" water pipeline
In Reply to John O'Brien at 19:13 Apr-19-2009 .

Thank you John for the useful comments.

No the line is running from Al Khobar to Riyadh and it is a very complicated problem that has been there for almost two years and unsolved. We are trying to do something but as I see it because of the lining of concrete then you take the MFL pigging out. Also, they need to clean the debri (fallen piece of concrete) that are blocking the flow at some parts...

We are trying to design a pigging tool that has three wheels separated by 120 degrees from each other so that this tools will not be blocked by the debri that is occupying quarter to third of the pipe at the 6 o'clock..... Put a video on it to have first a clear inside view, and then other things and actions will follow if we can manage to clean the pipeline.

Thank you.

 
 Reply 
 
Geert Bontekoe
Geert Bontekoe
16:50 Apr-21-2009
Re: 27 years old 60" water pipeline
In Reply to Dr. Ahmed Yamani at 19:52 Apr-20-2009 .

Dear Ahmed, interesting way to tackle this problem. How are you going to propel the ILI tool and how are you going to prevent the tool from spinning so that the wheels would go over the piles of cement?
Why do you expect heaps of cement every 100 to 150m?

Regards Geert

 
 Reply 
 
Dr. Ahmed Yamani
Director, - President & CEO
Yamani Institute of Technology, Algeria, Joined Nov 2001, 23

Dr. Ahmed Yamani

Director, - President & CEO
Yamani Institute of Technology,
Algeria,
Joined Nov 2001
23
20:00 Apr-21-2009
Re: 27 years old 60" water pipeline
In Reply to Geert Bontekoe at 16:50 Apr-21-2009 .

Thank you Geert for the comment

We are thinking of letting the water flow do that. As for the wheels and the blockage we are palnning to make this tool rotates ( the weels will have many degrees of liberty ) so when they are blocked or touch something they automatically change direction. Anyway, it will be an experience.
regards.

 
 Reply 
 
S.V.Swamy
Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex , India, Joined Feb 2001, 787

S.V.Swamy

Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex ,
India,
Joined Feb 2001
787
03:42 Apr-22-2009
Re: 27 years old 60" water pipeline
In Reply to Dr. Ahmed Yamani at 20:00 Apr-21-2009 .

I was following the discussion with a lot of interest but kept silent since I had nothing specific to write (silence is golden and best in such cases!). Now, I have an idea for your consideration. If the three wheels are connected to the centre with spring-loaded spokes, they will flex / bend themselves to suit the reduced cross-section and the pig may not get stuck. You may also need a dredging / flushing robot to go ahead first and clean up the debris inside the pipe.

Keep us posted about the progress of the work.

Regards.

Swamy
Quality and NDT Guru
Hyderabad, India

 
 Reply 
 
dr. Ahmed Yamani
Director, - President & CEO
Yamani Institute of Technology, Algeria, Joined Nov 2001, 23

dr. Ahmed Yamani

Director, - President & CEO
Yamani Institute of Technology,
Algeria,
Joined Nov 2001
23
07:21 Apr-22-2009
Re: 27 years old 60" water pipeline
In Reply to S.V.Swamy at 03:42 Apr-22-2009 .

Thank you Mr. Swamy, yes that is exactly what we intend to do. Wheels can rotate, and radius can be varied (spring), consequently whenever the system (wheel) touchs an obstacle the whole system will rotate inside the pipe.

 
 Reply 
 
Rolf Sporkel
Rolf Sporkel
12:17 Apr-22-2009
Re: 27 years old 60" water pipeline
In Reply to dr. Ahmed Yamani at 07:21 Apr-22-2009 .

Mr. Yamani !

AGR Pipetech has a 6 Wheel driven pipeline tractor and a nice selection of Video+Laser applications which could be an option for you. As John O`Brien mentiones it may be optimistic to assume that the pipeline can be inspected in one run, but we have some umbilical winches for digital live image transfer over long range fibre optics inside the pipe.

As an additional information it must be said that we have successfully performed ultrasonic inspection with similar tractor on concrete internal lining, but the success rate is dependant upon how the concrete is applied to the pipe wall, (Manually/Automatic)

 
 Reply 
 
Reyaz Sabet-Sharghi
Reyaz Sabet-Sharghi
18:50 Apr-23-2009
Re: 27 years old 60" water pipeline
In Reply to Rolf Sporkel at 12:17 Apr-22-2009 .

MFL pigging is completely out of the question for this line. You will not be able to saturate the pipe wall reliably and as such will have unreliable responses (if at all) from any indications.

Your best bet is RFT. Not a contact technique and has significant give when it comes to the "fill factor". As niether the pipe wall nor the concrete are that thick, you should be able to get pretty good accuracy on calls. Also, RFT tools can easily be made to be retractable to oversome the problem of diameter restrictions caused by the concrete delamination.

 
 Reply 
 
Geert Bontekoe
Geert Bontekoe
00:00 Apr-24-2009
Re: 27 years old 60" water pipeline
In Reply to Reyaz Sabet-Sharghi at 18:50 Apr-23-2009 .

Dear all,

RFT would be a very good option to check for corrosion of the pipeline, but it would not indicate where the cement is missing. RFT would also take a very long time since an inspection speed of 100m/h is more realistic for this size pipe.
The length of a single section is about 90Km!
What I still would like to know from Ahmed is why/how he knows that there are heaps of cement every 100 to 150m that can be 20" high?

 
 Reply 
 
Robert Paynter
R & D,
U of Oxford, United Kingdom, Joined Jun 2001, 14

Robert Paynter

R & D,
U of Oxford,
United Kingdom,
Joined Jun 2001
14
14:55 May-05-2009
Re: 27 years old 60" water pipeline
In Reply to dr. Ahmed Yamani at 07:21 Apr-22-2009 .

Why do you need wheels to support the vehicle?
You have water - why not use buoyancy.
If you have flow then you have a power supply
for along pipe motion and steering.
If you have no flow you can use propellors to
provide motion (in all directions).

This would surely enable inspection with a camera system
on a neutrally buoyant mini submarine - the main challenge
would be getting enough lighting, but that wouldn't need to
be flood lighting - just where the camera is viewing.

I expect control and power supply would have to be via and
"umbilical", irrespective of vehicle type, which should be packaged
(in a tube) to have slightly positive buoyancy so that it floats above
obstacles.

Robert

 
 Reply 
 
Kevin Laven
Kevin Laven
21:06 Jun-19-2009
Re: 27 years old 60" water pipeline
In Reply to Dr. Ahmed Yamani at 11:31 Apr-18-2009 (Opening).

Our company may actually have something which can help you fairly easily. We have developed a free-swimming pipeline inspection tool with flexible fins that allow it to navigate through a variety of pipeline diameters. The tool can be outfitted with Remote Field Eddy Current (RFEC) sensors, which are sensitive to wall thickness in the steel of the pipeline, and do not need close contact with the metal to work. The system is neutrally bouyant in water, so the fins are sufficient to keep it centered.

Alternatively, we also have a tethered CCTV system specially designed for inspection of water pipelines while they remain in service.

We would be more than happy to talk to you about using either or both of these technologies.

Best regards,

Kevin Laven

 
 Reply 
 
rolsroyce
rolsroyce
16:21 Dec-07-2009
Re: 27 years old 60" water pipeline
In Reply to Dr. Ahmed Yamani at 11:31 Apr-18-2009 (Opening).

Dear Dr Ahmed,

I may have come in too late here however may I add the following, ?....

I am familiar with 60inch "cement mortar lined pipe..and problems that can be encountered....
First there are three types of CML pipe.......One, individual pipes are lined in a factory facility by " spin lining "...here the pipe is spun and cement mortar introduced while the the pipe is spinning....this gives a nice visual finish but however there are arguments to support the the belief that this type of lining is not as strong as pipe lined by a "lining machine " that travels through a single pipe spraying and trowel finishing mortar on to the internal wall of a pipe.... The pipe in both these methods are then welded up on site and the joints mortar lined after.........Then there is the method where the pipe is laid and welded first and then "mortar lined in-situ "..............

The most common reason for cement mortar lining to fail is
1, mishandling of lined pipe, ( while loading out or laying and welding )

2, failing to "cure" properly ( allowing the the pipe to dry out too much or too quickly after lining, or not maintaining a water presence in the pipe for at least 28 days).
Minor cracks can be accepted and will heal themselves later when the line is charged with water...

However if mortar lining has dropped out of a line in service this a big problem....I doubt that pigging will work first because of the tremendous amount of material to be shifted....and second because pigging will not just move the lose lining but scrape off lining still remaining on the pipe wall which increase the amount to be removed inpossible.... "cement mortar lining is not like sludge or odd objects in the pipe . ( "EACH " 60inch lined pipe will have about 2.5 cubic meters of hard mortar in it. )

I suspect the best way to inspect and clean the pipe is by emptying the water from the pipeline in sections.. Then as it is a twin line use a system to by-pass section by section or,... shut down one line clean it re-charge and repeat the proceess on the second line...

I cannot see any sort of internal machine or pig sorting this problem, if I am wrong I would be interested to hear about for future reference....

Rols......

 
 Reply 
 
Dr. Ahmed Yamani
Director, - President & CEO
Yamani Institute of Technology, Algeria, Joined Nov 2001, 23

Dr. Ahmed Yamani

Director, - President & CEO
Yamani Institute of Technology,
Algeria,
Joined Nov 2001
23
20:46 Dec-07-2009
Re: 27 years old 60" water pipeline
In Reply to rolsroyce at 16:21 Dec-07-2009 .

Dear Mr. Rols
it is never late to post a reply. There is always a bright idea hanging somewhere there... I personally think that your reply has a lot of common sense. It is down to earth and usually it is the simplest idea that work best.

Thank you and we will inform you if we can get out of this dielamma. Best regards to All.
Ahmed.

 
 Reply 
 
William Bateson
William Bateson
12:16 Jan-19-2010
Re: 27 years old 60" water pipeline
In Reply to Dr. Ahmed Yamani at 20:46 Dec-07-2009 .

Dear Dr Ahmed Yaman,

I have to agree with Rols he knows what he's talking about and hit the nail right on the head.
However he forgot to mention backfilling. If the trench at the time of laying the pipe was not correctly backfilled, then the pipe is now oval (squashed) which cracks the cml and then it falls from the pipe.
Also a CCTV pipe inspection will only determin where the problem is, and not what the solution is.
A manual inspection of 2-3 damaged area's will answer both questions for a fraction of the cost of hightech inspection.
I have experienced this problem only 3 times in my 44 years in the CML buisness,and all 3 were due to backfilling.

Regards, W. Bateson

 
 Reply 
 
garry armitage
garry armitage
12:23 Jan-24-2010
Re: 27 years old 60" water pipeline
In Reply to William Bateson at 12:16 Jan-19-2010 .

dear sir
i also agree with rolsroyce and mr william bateson regarding the cause of failure but there are more to consider regarding failure i have been involved in cement mortar lining all my working life on construction and application of all types of linings esspecialy cement mortar lining
first the sand cement ratio and water content : curing period (insitue and stack yard) transportation to site : laying and back filling construction : application and outside temperature when mixing and application: thickness: type of application : hydrotest of pipe and working pressure of pipe : ect ect.
from my experiance pigging is out of the question and only a physical inspection would benefit.
regards garry armitage

 
 Reply 
 
Rols
Rols
17:36 Feb-23-2010
Re: 27 years old 60" water pipeline
In Reply to Dr. Ahmed Yamani at 20:46 Dec-07-2009 .

Dear Dr. Yamani,
hello again, I came accross this forum by accident last time made a quick reply to your quest for info on the 60inch water line.....However since thinking about it a bit more I would say that this line would have been an important project at that time and that quality control must have been quite ridgidly enforced at the time so it s hard to understand how lining failure occured......It depends on the amount of failed lining but do you think the lining that has failed in isolated patches or consistent throughout the line ?....If it has consistently failed throughout the line the weakest points could have been where the joints were welded,.... These sections would be about 300-400mm wide and mortar lined after welding....Quality of these joints may not have been up to standard and may have looked ok at the time of final inspection only to fail at a later date !!...I think this could be most likely reason for the problem.........

There are people ( including myself ) who would be willing to do a hands on physical inspection on these lines and I think this would be your best move at this time...
This would be your clients cheapest and most positive option at this time...

I hope this is of help to you...

regards,

Rols

 
 Reply 
 
paul ryan
Sales
United Kingdom, Joined Feb 2010, 12

paul ryan

Sales
United Kingdom,
Joined Feb 2010
12
11:48 Feb-24-2010
Re: 27 years old 60" water pipeline
In Reply to Rols at 17:36 Feb-23-2010 .

Our Acoustic Ranger 5000 device will find the location of the cement mortar lining that has fallen over this distance and on this diameter pipe. Further information is available on our web site at www.phoenixisl.co.uk or please contact me to discuss further how we can assist you.

 
 Reply 
 
Ahmed
Ahmed
13:33 Mar-15-2010
Re: 27 years old 60" water pipeline
In Reply to rolsroyce at 16:21 Dec-07-2009 .

Rols,

that is exactly what the client has opted to do. Isolate sections, cut, clean,inspect and then re-erect again. each section I beleive is about 100 m long. Thank you for the smart idea....

I am quoting Rols suggestion:"I suspect the best way to inspect and clean the pipe is by emptying the water from the pipeline in sections.. Then as it is a twin line use a system to by-pass section by section or,... shut down one line clean it re-charge and repeat the proceess on the second line...

I cannot see any sort of internal machine or pig sorting this problem, if I am wrong I would be interested to hear about for future reference....

 
 Reply 
 
rols
rols
17:12 May-13-2010
Re: 27 years old 60" water pipeline
In Reply to Ahmed at 13:33 Mar-15-2010 .

Dear Dr. Ahmed,
glad they are taking your advice, however you could suggest they extend the inspection / cleaning runs... it is posible to go several hundred meters in one run, this would save time and cost.......also rather than cut the pipe at this time there is probably avail access points at intervals along the line...?.this would also sve all round....

rgds,
Rols....

 
 Reply 
 
rolly pitson
rolly pitson
17:57 Jan-31-2012
Re: 27 years old 60" water pipeline
In Reply to rols at 17:12 May-13-2010 .

Dear mr Ahmed I am wondering if you have solved your problem....rgds. Rols

 
 Reply 
 
Lalit Mohan Kothari
Consultant, -
On ..IOCL and BARC(Bhabha Atomic Research Centre).etc, India, Joined Jan 2003, 128

Lalit Mohan Kothari

Consultant, -
On ..IOCL and BARC(Bhabha Atomic Research Centre).etc,
India,
Joined Jan 2003
128
15:36 Mar-11-2012
Re: 27 years old 60" water pipeline
In Reply to Dr. Ahmed Yamani at 11:31 Apr-18-2009 (Opening).

Dear Dr Ahmed Yamin,
Try to contact Nalco Chemicals for to
1.Cement heap softening agent and run for some time.
2. If possible make some by pass section for filtering device so that if we clean heaps it didn’t chocks /further damage to the pipe line And their is a no interruption in water supply
3.Use air jet to remove the soft heap from bottom of pipe .Even if we are able to make a a cut on soft heap of cement and by changing flow speed we can solve more then half of the problem.
4.As water treatment co. generally cleaning chokes (by some hard scales etc)piping systems/process etc by on line cleaning (With out taking plants shutdowns )in cooling water systems /etc and same practice you can adopt here.
Thanks & Regard
Lalit Mohan Kothari
TUV-NORD DELHI

 
 Reply 
 

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