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Career Discussions
Stan
NDT Inspector,
Canada, Joined Jan 2009, 31

Stan

NDT Inspector,
Canada,
Joined Jan 2009
31
16:52 Apr-01-2011
Level III responsibilities

Hi:
Can anyone tell me whether it is stated anywhere that a Level III tech has the right to over rule a call made by a level II. I cannot find it in CGSB or SNT.
If it is not said anywhere, then does it happen only because the Level III opinion is more respected than a level II tech, or is there more to it than that.
Thanks
Stan

    
 
 
Dent
Consultant, NDE Manager NDELevel III/3
NDT Consultant, Canada, Joined Nov 1998, 248

Dent

Consultant, NDE Manager NDELevel III/3
NDT Consultant,
Canada,
Joined Nov 1998
248
20:54 Apr-01-2011
Re: Level III responsibilities
In Reply to Stan at 16:52 Apr-01-2011 (Opening).

CGSB or ASNT will not say in so many words that a Level III has the right to overrule a call by a Level II.
However, that being said, the Level III has the right and ethical responsibility to make it known if he believes the Level II is making a serious error. It also holds true that if the Level II feels strongly that the Level III is making a mistake, he too has an ethical obligation to escalate the matter for resolution.
That may mean getting another unbiased Level III to arbitrate.

If the Level II and the Level III are completely competant in the method and technique there may from time to time be some differences of technical opinion. (Especially with some of the more subjective methods).
In addition to technical differences of opinion there may be the politics or economics of the situation.
Conflicts of this nature should be resolved in the best interests of public safety.
That is what NDT is all about.

    
 
 
John Brunk
Engineering, NDT Level III
Self employed, part-time, USA, Joined Oct 1999, 159

John Brunk

Engineering, NDT Level III
Self employed, part-time,
USA,
Joined Oct 1999
159
21:16 Apr-01-2011
Re: Level III responsibilities
In Reply to Stan at 16:52 Apr-01-2011 (Opening).

I do not think there is a simple answer to your question. I am an outside agent Level III in several methods for several companies, and I have never had an actual serious dispute with a Level II about whether a particular indication should be accepted or rejected. There have been concerns, questions and discussions about various situations that led to further investigation and discovery of which one of us was actually right. These have been positive and mutually beneficial learning experiences. Both are supposed to be able to determine whether a particular test has been performed properly. NAS-410, for example, states that a Level III cannot actually perform a test for product acceptance unless doing so was part of the practical examination he/she completed in that method. The Level III is responsible for verifying that the Level II is competent to conduct the work assigned, and also responsible for assuring that the Level II has been adequately trained, assuming that both are working for the same employer. One one occasion I reviewed a group of weld radiographs and found that the test lab's Level III had overruled several rejections by the Level II film reader for excessive porosity. I determined that the regions of porosity were in fact acceptable and thought maybe the film reader got tired of counting and measuring pores and decided to err on the "safe" side. In this case there was something objective (porosity charts in ASME Section VIII) to determine who was right. There are certainly cases where not so easy. In some cases it would be best to call in a second Level III if one is available. In others, someone with more detailed knowledge of the fabrication process or materials used would be a better resource. It is important to not let the disagreement become personal and to remember that both are working for the same customer and purpose.

    
 
 
Nigel Armstrong
Engineering, - Specialist services
United Kingdom, Joined Oct 2000, 1096

Nigel Armstrong

Engineering, - Specialist services
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 2000
1096
23:53 Apr-01-2011
Re: Level III responsibilities
In Reply to John Brunk at 21:16 Apr-01-2011 .

1. I dont think any certification scheme deals with these issues in such an overt and hardline way - actually stating that the opinion of a Level III is intrinsically more likely to be correct than that of a Level II would need so many qualifiers as to be virtually worthless.

However there is the expectation (not necessarily true of course) that the Level III will have more of everything - training, experience, knowledge, gravitas than the Level II and this is evident in the assignations of duties and responsibilities to the various Levels, eg whereeas PCN/GEN expects the Level 2 to interpret and evaluate results, the Level 3 is "qualified to direct any NDT operation for which they sre certificated" and "MAY BE AUTHORISED BY THE EMPLOYER TO ASSUME FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR A TEST FACILITY AND STAFF" and shall "provide guidance and supervision at all levels".

2. There are so many possible specific conditions surrounding any particular challenge or conflict that generally its a case of pragmatic expediency winning out. However there is a possibility for a situation to become very messy which one hopes to avoid at almost any cost. However personally I dont see why the opinion of the Level III should be more respected "de facto" than that of the Level II - pieces of paper are just signs that the holder of the piece of paper has succesfully negotiated the certification process - not that they are infallible or unchallengable and rigidly inerpreted hierarchies stamped onto any aspect of society are prone to major anomalies. All levels are human and as such it is can be the more modest out of whom comes the truth! Dont forget the old adage which has been around for 150 years or so "Lions led by donkeys".

Intersting question though. Have you a particular situation to share Stan?

    
 
 
Jon Wallis
NDT Inspector, -
Netherlands, Joined Feb 2010, 626

Jon Wallis

NDT Inspector, -
Netherlands,
Joined Feb 2010
626
14:16 Apr-02-2011
Re: Level III responsibilities
In Reply to Nigel Armstrong at 23:53 Apr-01-2011 .

I don't think that the level on its own gives a person the right to overrule somebody with a lesser level. The function that a person holds with the accompanying responsibilities is surely the deciding factor.
Someones CV should weigh just a heavily as the qualification they hold and a practically experienced level 2 is much better than a theoretical level 3 with clients rep. work for example

    
 
 
Oliviero
NDT Inspector,
Quality Control srl, Italy, Joined Oct 2008, 414

Oliviero

NDT Inspector,
Quality Control srl,
Italy,
Joined Oct 2008
414
20:23 Apr-09-2011
Re: Level III responsibilities
In Reply to Stan at 16:52 Apr-01-2011 (Opening).

The NDT field is not an Army.
Any qualification level has not sense without the definition into the standard used for qualification. Any standard (as SNT-TC-1A or EN 473 or ISO 9712 or other) defines the meaning of each qualification level. Any person could reach a qualification level into its own company, and he could have its own experience and competence.
If several qualified person are employed into the same company they should be appointed to their level as necessary for the organization and the company Written Practice should define the competence.
Never Level III qualification is comparable to another level III qualification, nor between level II and level III, but once each technical opinion can be discussed on concrete basis.
A level III cannot overpowering to a level II nor level II can overpowering level III.
Level I or level II or level III don't exist if behind there is not a person.

    
 
 

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