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Controle Mesure Systemes
Contrôle Mesure Systèmes designs, develops and manufactures nearly 30 years a complete NDT range of products in eddy current and ultrasonic testing methods.
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Technical Discussions
Deepu Varghese
Other, Plant Inspector
SABIC, Saudi Arabia, Joined Jul 2011, 13

Deepu Varghese

Other, Plant Inspector
SABIC,
Saudi Arabia,
Joined Jul 2011
13
19:17 Aug-07-2011
Determination of exact Steel grade using XRF method (PMI)

Sometimes while performing PMI (Innov-x) on Alloy, Tool & Stainless steel exact grade doesn’t appear ( Two/ Three grades appear simultaneously in the display)

Eg:- While performing the test equipment, in few cases equipment displays both SS 304 & SS 321, 4130 & 4340 and O,S& L series of Tool Steel.

In such cases what is the best solution or best step to take.

What is the best equipment in the market (using Portable Optical Emission Spectrometry / XRF Method) which can even determine Light elements as well as grades of Carbon Steel.

 
 Reply 
 
S V Swamy
Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex , India, Joined Feb 2001, 787

S V Swamy

Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex ,
India,
Joined Feb 2001
787
14:34 Aug-08-2011
Re: Determination of exact Steel grade using XRF method (PMI)
In Reply to Deepu Varghese at 19:17 Aug-07-2011 (Opening).

Dear Deepu,

OES using argon or a portable vacuum head at the spark / arc can give almost all the elements including carbon. However, from the very construction / design limitations, portable equipment have higher error margins than fixed laboratory equipment and thus it is always a good idea where grade confirmation is needed, to take small samples (by drilling a small hole, scraping or cutting a small piece from a corner etc.) so that the most appropriate laboratory equipment can be used.

Best regards

Swamy

 
 Reply 
 
anjafo
NDT Inspector
Norway, Joined Aug 2009, 204

anjafo

NDT Inspector
Norway,
Joined Aug 2009
204
16:55 Aug-08-2011
Re: Determination of exact Steel grade using XRF method (PMI)
In Reply to S V Swamy at 14:34 Aug-08-2011 .

you can try cleaning the stainless steel piece more, this helps.

 
 Reply 
 
Joe Buckley
Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 1999, 523

Joe Buckley

Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 1999
523
19:12 Aug-08-2011
Re: Determination of exact Steel grade using XRF method (PMI)
In Reply to anjafo at 16:55 Aug-08-2011 .

You should also bear in mind that in some cases the acceptable tolerance of composition for two (or more) grades of alloys may overlap.

in this situation the equipment cannot guess "what it is meant to be"

 
 Reply 
 
Deepu Varghese
Other, Plant Inspector
SABIC, Saudi Arabia, Joined Jul 2011, 13

Deepu Varghese

Other, Plant Inspector
SABIC,
Saudi Arabia,
Joined Jul 2011
13
18:50 Aug-09-2011
Re: Determination of exact Steel grade using XRF method (PMI)
In Reply to anjafo at 16:55 Aug-08-2011 .

Always the test pieces are well cleaned and for some coated mechanical components we use pencil grinder even then we face this problem.
As Mr.Joe said it may be due to the overlap of chemical composition.

 
 Reply 
 
Deepu Varghese
Other, Plant Inspector
SABIC, Saudi Arabia, Joined Jul 2011, 13

Deepu Varghese

Other, Plant Inspector
SABIC,
Saudi Arabia,
Joined Jul 2011
13
18:54 Aug-09-2011
Re: Determination of exact Steel grade using XRF method (PMI)
In Reply to S V Swamy at 14:34 Aug-08-2011 .

Can any one advice me with the best manufacture / vendor & model of Portable Optical Emission Spectrometry.

Thank you all for your valuable comments.

 
 Reply 
 
Phil
NDT Inspector, Radiation Safety
BINDT, MIAQP, United Kingdom, Joined Mar 2009, 151

Phil

NDT Inspector, Radiation Safety
BINDT, MIAQP,
United Kingdom,
Joined Mar 2009
151
18:08 Aug-11-2011
Re: Determination of exact Steel grade using XRF method (PMI)
In Reply to Deepu Varghese at 18:54 Aug-09-2011 .

Dear Deepu

I will send you a personal email as the Company where I work use OES equipment and we are based in Saudi Arabia.

 
 Reply 
 
Selvaraj
Selvaraj
10:38 Aug-15-2011
Re: Determination of exact Steel grade using XRF method (PMI)
In Reply to Phil at 18:08 Aug-11-2011 .

Can any one provide me the details of the company in middleeast performing optical emission spectrography - Non destructive method?


mail id - selvaraj.m@madinagulf.com

 
 Reply 
 
Phil
NDT Inspector, Radiation Safety
BINDT, MIAQP, United Kingdom, Joined Mar 2009, 151

Phil

NDT Inspector, Radiation Safety
BINDT, MIAQP,
United Kingdom,
Joined Mar 2009
151
17:18 Aug-15-2011
Re: Determination of exact Steel grade using XRF method (PMI)
In Reply to Selvaraj at 10:38 Aug-15-2011 .

Hi Selvaraj

Yes I can the Company I work for perform OES in Saudi, Kingdom wide I will send you a email tomorrow, from my Company email.

Regards

 
 Reply 
 
suneel sharma
R & D, Senior Manager NDT, ASNT NDT Level III
CHW Forge (P) Ltd, India, Joined Mar 2010, 18

suneel sharma

R & D, Senior Manager NDT, ASNT NDT Level III
CHW Forge (P) Ltd,
India,
Joined Mar 2010
18
12:37 Aug-17-2011
Re: Determination of exact Steel grade using XRF method (PMI)
In Reply to Phil at 18:08 Aug-11-2011 .

Dear Mr. Deepu,

I am also use same equipment innov-x XRF. here i want to share some information about this machine. if you select smartbeam function (which is very important function for grade sorting) then you can get seprate result in F304, F321 and F347.

if any grade which not entered in librery than it show no match or nearly match grade.
if surface having any foriegn material as like paint, dirt or scale etc then it show wrong reading so surface always clean by any suitable cleaner.

if you have calibration certificate of standard sample which is fix on cap, evalute the reading with certificate reading if any deviation contact service center.

Suneel

 
 Reply 
 
Ravi Ramlal
Ravi Ramlal
01:24 Aug-19-2011
Re: Determination of exact Steel grade using XRF method (PMI)
In Reply to suneel sharma at 12:37 Aug-17-2011 .

hello guys
From what I have seen. The difference between SS 304 and SS321 is a .7% TI. Until the Xrf can obtain clear indication of this Ti it will cycle between 304 and 321. this goes for both the innov-x and the nitons. what can be done is looking at the sigma columns next to the elemental reading to determine when the accuracy of the metal is close to calling it. As for carbon steels 4130 and 4340 giving a longer shoot time should help, keeping in mind that CS combinations are determine by the carbon content which are difficult for XRF units

1
 
 Reply 
 
BALAK
BALAK
15:13 Jun-11-2012
Re: Determination of exact Steel grade using XRF method (PMI)
In Reply to S V Swamy at 14:34 Aug-08-2011 .

Dear All , i m in great trouble.

few days ago,
I did PMI of one sample and found it was SS304. I made report on the basis of that.
but next day , i tested and it showing as SS321
now my management is raising question.. how can that possible ?
My observation is like.
the difference between SS321 and SS304 is
% Ti 0.45 , Cu 0.33 in SS 321.
% W is 0.32 in SS 304.


help me for explanation..



 
 Reply 
 
John
John
19:25 Jun-11-2012
Re: Determination of exact Steel grade using XRF method (PMI)
In Reply to Ravi Ramlal at 01:24 Aug-19-2011 .

"keeping in mind that CS combinations are determine by the carbon content which are difficult for XRF units"

Difficult is an understatement! XRF does not measure carbon content. Must use OES for carbon content!

If you are looking for "exact" grade, you will need a sample for a wet analysis.

For a proper PMI, you should know what you are supposed to be looking for to begin with and determine whether on not the material falls within range for that particular material grade.
If you dont know what you are looking for to begin with, it is virtually impossible to verify / calibrate for the proper material!

Seek training, most companies do this in-house and is severely lacking!

Regards and well wishes

 
 Reply 
 
Rick Lopez
R & D,
John Deere - Moline Technology Innovation Center, USA, Joined Jul 2011, 188

Rick Lopez

R & D,
John Deere - Moline Technology Innovation Center,
USA,
Joined Jul 2011
188
20:25 Jun-11-2012
Re: Determination of exact Steel grade using XRF method (PMI)
In Reply to BALAK at 15:13 Jun-11-2012 .

Balak,
It is too bad that you're in that situation, but I think that such a problem would be unavoidable if your company is putting complete faith in x-ray fluorescence for critical applications. A PMI device makes a judgment regarding which material to proclaim based on its statistical confidence in the results. When it is very confident in the result, it will give that answer a high rating (over 5 for example). It also has alternative guesses that are (sometimes) not displayed, which have received some lesser rating (1 to 2 as further example).

My guess is that the chemistry in your sample is close to the overlap region mentioned above, and that the PMI device was not terribly confident in either answer. You talked about tungsten and copper content in your stainless steels. Neither element is listed in standard chemistries for these materials (to my knowledge), so neither would play a role in the PMI device's logic. If you are indeed using custom material chemistries with tungsten and copper as key ingredients, then you should add your custom 304 and 321 separately into your PMI device rather than allowing the unit to use textbook chemical compositions.

A reference source suggests that all textbook constituents (C, Mn, Si, Cr, Ni, P, and S) overlap for SS304 and SS321. Your best distinguishing chemistry is %Ti (min is 5 times %C), but a value of 0.45 is not terribly high given the likely percent error in the reading. Acquisition time plays a role in measurement error (inversely proportional), and sample preparation is key.

 
 Reply 
 
suneel sharma
R & D, Senior Manager NDT, ASNT NDT Level III
CHW Forge (P) Ltd, India, Joined Mar 2010, 18

suneel sharma

R & D, Senior Manager NDT, ASNT NDT Level III
CHW Forge (P) Ltd,
India,
Joined Mar 2010
18
18:24 Jun-12-2012
Re: Determination of exact Steel grade using XRF method (PMI)
In Reply to BALAK at 15:13 Jun-11-2012 .

material surface where PMI to be performed should be clean from paint, marker etc.

 
 Reply 
 
Csaba Hollo
,
Retired, Canada, Joined Feb 2010, 301

Csaba Hollo

,
Retired,
Canada,
Joined Feb 2010
301
20:35 Jun-12-2012
Re: Determination of exact Steel grade using XRF method (PMI)
In Reply to BALAK at 15:13 Jun-11-2012 .

This sounds like a classic example of 'overselling' the capability of PMI.

 
 Reply 
 
Oliviero
NDT Inspector,
Quality Control srl, Italy, Joined Oct 2008, 414

Oliviero

NDT Inspector,
Quality Control srl,
Italy,
Joined Oct 2008
414
21:05 Jun-12-2012
Re: Determination of exact Steel grade using XRF method (PMI)
In Reply to Rick Lopez at 20:25 Jun-11-2012 .

I'm confirming that SS321 is a stainless steel 18/8 modified by a few quantity of Ti.
So the PMI instrument does not read clearly the difference between SS321 and SS304 spectrums.
This means that some time, where a little concentration of a light spectrum similar to the Ti response, and a little bit above the noise od the signal, could be interpreted by the instrument as a little percentage of Titanium.
Anyway the PMI is normally performed to avoid confusion between an "high quality alloy" vs. another "low quality alloy" which can be used instead of it.
When the difference is very low the PMI could be not enough. But PMI also could be not necessary since the same useful possibility to use one or another alloy.

 
 Reply 
 
LIJU P R
NDT Inspector, -ND
Institute of testing technology(ITT),mumbai,india, India, Joined Jul 2009, 3

LIJU P R

NDT Inspector, -ND
Institute of testing technology(ITT),mumbai,india,
India,
Joined Jul 2009
3
09:29 Jan-31-2013
Re: Determination of exact Steel grade using XRF method (PMI)
In Reply to Deepu Varghese at 19:17 Aug-07-2011 (Opening).

Mr suneel,
Can you give some more information about how we activate that smart beam function onnnovex xrf (classic) .I am also facing the same problem with innovex xrf (classic) machine.last time i did pmi on I-825(filler wire) material welded on i-725 (base material). but the result is i-725 on machine and the nickel composition is also not matching anybody have any idea about that why it coming like that.

 
 Reply 
 
leecf
leecf
02:17 Aug-28-2015
Re: Determination of exact Steel grade using XRF method (PMI)
In Reply to Phil at 18:08 Aug-11-2011 .

Is OES capable of detecting 300ppm Carbon as in 316L Stainless Steel?

 
 Reply 
 
PRABHA
PRABHA
16:03 Oct-26-2015
Re: Determination of exact Steel grade using XRF method (PMI)
In Reply to Deepu Varghese at 19:17 Aug-07-2011 (Opening).

Hi Mr.Deepu,

Normally we use Niton Analyzers for material grade verification. We often get such results. But the results are displayed with confidence factors next to them. Eg. SS304 1.4 and SS321 1.8. In this case it indicates that the analyzed sample is closer to SS 304.
This is one way of sorting. Although I am not an expert but I am still learning, Pls correct me if I am wrong. Thanks in advance :)

 
 Reply 
 
S V Swamy
Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex , India, Joined Feb 2001, 787

S V Swamy

Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex ,
India,
Joined Feb 2001
787
16:41 Oct-26-2015
Re: Determination of exact Steel grade using XRF method (PMI)
In Reply to BALAK at 15:13 Jun-11-2012 .

You should never certify grades based on PMI - whether it is x-ray based or OES based. The errors are too many and grade certification based on them is bound to create problems sooner or later.

PMI is useful when the difference in chemistry is clear - for example SS 304 vs. SS 316...or SS vs. Inconel etc. - where a possibility of mix up exists in the shop floor.

Grade certification should be done only based on a regular QC Lab test where the variations in results are lesser - not Zero.

We found variation of carbon content across a SS plate cut from an ingot which was showing carbon content close to the specification limit. We tested multiple samples by drilling and subjected all of them to the standard LECO tester where the sample is ignited under standardised conditions. So, one can imagine the variations in field testing where the conditions are likely to vary much more.

Best wishes.

Swamy
Retired QC / QA Metallurgist and NDT specialist

1
 
 Reply 
 

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