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Technical Discussions
Phuong Vu Quang
Phuong Vu Quang
12:22 Mar-15-2012
How to detect cracks for inner surface of tube

Dear Sir/Madam,

Our company is producing mass quantity of carbon steel tubes: inner diameter from 22mm-50mm, thickness from 3mm-5mm, length from 400mm-500mm. We need o detect cracks for inner surface. Most cracks are logitudinal crack. We are using endoscope to inspect tube but we just detect large cracks, not detect micro cracks. Please help us what method and what instrument for our job.
Thank you very much.
Best regards,

Phuong Vu Quang
QC Department
Quang Binh Mechanics Co., Ltd
phuongvq@cokhiquangbinh.co.cc

 
 Reply 
 
Phuong Vu Quang
Phuong Vu Quang
17:23 Mar-16-2012
Re: How to detect cracks for inner surface of tube
In Reply to Phuong Vu Quang at 12:22 Mar-15-2012 (Opening).

Can anybody help me? Thanks!

 
 Reply 
 
Ingo Becker
Engineering, NDT Inspector & Sales
ec-works GmbH, Germany, Joined Apr 2000, 30

Ingo Becker

Engineering, NDT Inspector & Sales
ec-works GmbH,
Germany,
Joined Apr 2000
30
18:00 Mar-16-2012
Re: How to detect cracks for inner surface of tube
In Reply to Phuong Vu Quang at 17:23 Mar-16-2012 .

Dear colleague,

perhaps you should look to the different eddy current technologies. A proper eddy current system could detect many different types of defects; and a rotating device will detect the longer longitudinal defects too.

Best regards

Ingo Becker

 
 Reply 
 
Linxiao Yu
R & D, NDE in Oil & Gas; Energy; Manufacturing
BP, USA, Joined Aug 2006, 13

Linxiao Yu

R & D, NDE in Oil & Gas; Energy; Manufacturing
BP,
USA,
Joined Aug 2006
13
20:20 Mar-16-2012
Re: How to detect cracks for inner surface of tube
In Reply to Phuong Vu Quang at 12:22 Mar-15-2012 (Opening).

It is a good starter to check the quality requirements of your products, either from your customer or reference to some industrial standards, such as ASTM, EN/ISO standards.

Couple industrial standards off my head regarding tubular products NDT are:

EN 10246,
ASTM E213, E 273, E 309, E570, etc.

Be award of the application of each standards in terms of materials, dimension of your product, and desired quality levels and inspection methods (UT/ET/MFL).

Many tube suppliers we have business with use in-line system by Magnetic Analysis Corporation. You should be able google it to find more information.

Good luck!

 
 Reply 
 
massimo carminati
Consultant, AUT specialist
IMG Ultrasuoni Srl, Italy, Joined Apr 2007, 691

massimo carminati

Consultant, AUT specialist
IMG Ultrasuoni Srl,
Italy,
Joined Apr 2007
691
20:20 Mar-16-2012
Re: How to detect cracks for inner surface of tube
In Reply to Phuong Vu Quang at 12:22 Mar-15-2012 (Opening).

I would evaluate an UT testing machine.

 
 Reply 
 
P V SASTRY
R & D, NDT tecniques metallurgy
TAKEN VRS FROM THE POSITION OF SR. DEPUTY GENERAL MANAGER BHEL CORPORATE R&D, India, Joined Jan 2003, 195

P V SASTRY

R & D, NDT tecniques metallurgy
TAKEN VRS FROM THE POSITION OF SR. DEPUTY GENERAL MANAGER BHEL CORPORATE R&D,
India,
Joined Jan 2003
195
21:52 Mar-16-2012
Re: How to detect cracks for inner surface of tube
In Reply to Phuong Vu Quang at 12:22 Mar-15-2012 (Opening).

Dear Sir,We regularly conduct visual and magnetic particle examinations of rotor bores. The lowest diameter bore that we examined is about 40 mm ID. But generally we examine rotor bores ranging from 60 to 140 mm ID. The bore length varies from 3000 to 6000 mm. We use the following technique.Before the test is commenced the bore inner surface is honed using an improvised honing device. The surface finish achieved is about 3 microns after successive honing with honing sticks of various grades.The inspection is done with the rotor placed in horizontal position. A central conductor is passed through the entire bore length and a motorized spray system with long pipe is used for spraying black magnetic particles suspended in kerosene, on the inner surface of the bore. A minimum magnetizing current of 40 Amperes per each centimeter of bore dia. is used while spraying. The inspection of bore top half surface is done with boroscope/videoscope, after carefully withdrawing the central conductor. The process is repeated after cleaning the bore and bringing the bottom half to the top. In your case the following points have to be addressed. 1. In case you do not want to clean the inner surface meticulously to get a shining surface, you have to use fluorescent magnetic particles suspended in kerosene and a boroscope with ultraviolet light. 2. Since your lengths are smaller you can do the operation, with pipe in vertical direction and use a normal spray bottle from the top side, instead of motorized spray pipe. 3. For smaller diameter pipes naturally you have to use smaller central conductors. Alternately you can magnetize the pipe by passing current directly through the pipe, by clamping at both ends. This will allow for better and uniform spraying and insertion of boroscope/video scope immediately after magnetization.4. Since it is mass production I recommend a semi-automated system for fast cleaning of the bore to get nearly shining surface and use of black particles with inspection under normal light. 5. You can also spray the magnetic particles simultaneously on the outer side and carryout inspection for the possible presence of defects on the outer surface. On the outer surface you case use Wet Fluorescent particles, even while using black particles on the side.We have developed bore magnetization as well as automated borosonic scanning systems on our own. In case you need any assistance you can mail me directly. With best wishes,P V SASTRY

 
 Reply 
 
Lalit Mohan Kothari
Consultant, -
On ..IOCL and BARC(Bhabha Atomic Research Centre).etc, India, Joined Jan 2003, 128

Lalit Mohan Kothari

Consultant, -
On ..IOCL and BARC(Bhabha Atomic Research Centre).etc,
India,
Joined Jan 2003
128
10:59 Mar-18-2012
Re: How to detect cracks for inner surface of tube
In Reply to Phuong Vu Quang at 12:22 Mar-15-2012 (Opening).

Just go for ET and it is common in Nuclear power for heat exchanger tube inspection

Thanks & Regard

 
 Reply 
 
Andreas
NDT Inspector, Specially in the oilfield
Tuboscope Vetco(Deutschland)Gmbh, Germany, Joined Oct 1999, 130

Andreas

NDT Inspector, Specially in the oilfield
Tuboscope Vetco(Deutschland)Gmbh,
Germany,
Joined Oct 1999
130
17:12 Mar-18-2012
Re: How to detect cracks for inner surface of tube
In Reply to Phuong Vu Quang at 12:22 Mar-15-2012 (Opening).

if you produce a mass quantity , so it will be be a mass product therefore the requirement will be low?
If you do not work to a spec specifying your aloud tolerance(defects).
Then I assume you look for a defect free product .
Looking to the dim and material , UT will be questable , ET will be ok.
MT in my opinion will be the right option , use a bench type magnitzier with wet flourescent matter.

Regards

Andreas

 
 Reply 
 
masood
State Engineering, Pakistan, Joined Jun 2011, 9

masood

State Engineering,
Pakistan,
Joined Jun 2011
9
18:13 Mar-18-2012
Re: How to detect cracks for inner surface of tube
In Reply to Phuong Vu Quang at 17:23 Mar-16-2012 .

Eddy current testing is very good technique in detecting fine cracks.Internal probes with the appropriate fill factor will provide best results.

 
 Reply 
 
P V SASTRY
R & D, NDT tecniques metallurgy
TAKEN VRS FROM THE POSITION OF SR. DEPUTY GENERAL MANAGER BHEL CORPORATE R&D, India, Joined Jan 2003, 195

P V SASTRY

R & D, NDT tecniques metallurgy
TAKEN VRS FROM THE POSITION OF SR. DEPUTY GENERAL MANAGER BHEL CORPORATE R&D,
India,
Joined Jan 2003
195
17:29 Mar-19-2012
Re: How to detect cracks for inner surface of tube
In Reply to Lalit Mohan Kothari at 10:59 Mar-18-2012 .

Dear Sir,

What kind of eddy current probes you have in mind for this application.

In heat exchanger tubes normally differential bobbin probes are used with Pneumatic pulling and a minimum of four frequencies are used for a particular reason.

Do you mean to say the same can be done here?

Regards

P V SASTRY

 
 Reply 
 
Phuong Vu Quang
Phuong Vu Quang
06:11 Mar-20-2012
Re: How to detect cracks for inner surface of tube
In Reply to P V SASTRY at 17:29 Mar-19-2012 .

Dear all,

Thanks you very much for your advice. We are thinking about a portable deey current instrument with rotor probe for manual testing. Unfortunatelly we have less information about this instrument type. Can anyone advice us the name of model and Maker for this instrument?

Vu Quang phuong

 
 Reply 
 
Sudheer Jai Krishnan
Sudheer Jai Krishnan
06:49 Mar-20-2012
Re: How to detect cracks for inner surface of tube
In Reply to Phuong Vu Quang at 06:11 Mar-20-2012 .

Olympus NDT does manufacture these type of systems i believe. They are having the ECA(Eddy Current Array) technology. You can contact one Mr.Tommy Martel at tommy.martel@olympusndt.com

 
 Reply 
 
Norm Woodward
Norm Woodward
19:06 Mar-20-2012
Re: How to detect cracks for inner surface of tube
In Reply to Phuong Vu Quang at 06:11 Mar-20-2012 .

Olympus also makes Nortec general purpose eddy current units with several optional manually operated rotary probes spinners, such as their larger Spitfire and smaller MiniMite. We in the military use such units primarily in fastener holes, found in aluminum, titanium, and, sometimes in landing gear, ferromagnetic steels. Of course our applications are usually shorter and of a smaller diameter than those cited, but I am sure Olympus, or a third party supplier, could come up with the appropriate probes for your applications.

As usual, this not intended to be an endorsement by the Defense Department or any other US government entity.

And your mileage will vary.

 
 Reply 
 
P V SASTRY
R & D, NDT tecniques metallurgy
TAKEN VRS FROM THE POSITION OF SR. DEPUTY GENERAL MANAGER BHEL CORPORATE R&D, India, Joined Jan 2003, 195

P V SASTRY

R & D, NDT tecniques metallurgy
TAKEN VRS FROM THE POSITION OF SR. DEPUTY GENERAL MANAGER BHEL CORPORATE R&D,
India,
Joined Jan 2003
195
19:57 Mar-20-2012
Re: How to detect cracks for inner surface of tube
In Reply to Phuong Vu Quang at 06:11 Mar-20-2012 .

Dear Vu Quang Phuong,

An eddy current rotary probe system will be very much suited for your application. But there are many issued to be addressed.

This system is very much different from the eddy current tube inspection system used in heat exchangers etc. In heat exchangers mainly the pitting and wall thickness reduction are monitored and most of them are non ferrous tubes.

Your are seeking to detect mainly longitudinal defects on the internal bore surface of Carbon steel tubes.

To my knowledge Olympus only makes bolt hole scanners. Cracks inside bolt holes can be detected using these automated bolt hole scanners to which bolt hole probes are attached. They make about five types of these scanners. They have different speeds and attach to different instrument models.

I have one of their scanners (model no PS-5 AL) and I use it along with Nortec 2000D instrument.

But none of them suit to your application as their probe diameters are limited to about 19 mm and the stroke length is about 50 mm.

While Olympus makes many array probes consisting of up to 128 elements, to my knowledge they make only one kind of array probe for tube internal inspection.

It is TXE - Eddy Current Array Tube Probe with limited no. elements arranged in circumferential direction alternating in excitation and pick up modes. These probes are designed to be used for the detection of circumferential cracks in stainless steel tubing, particularly those located at the edge of supports or tube sheets.

GE also makes one array probe for tube inspection and I do not know much on its configuration but I guess it is mainly designed for heat exchanger applications.

In any case you have to remember that your application is for Carbon steel that puts certain limits on ET.

The following link can help you in locating rotary probes up 50 mm . But I do not know which instrument operates them and what type of scan you get.

www.ethernde.com

I think you have to contact one of the manufacturers that make the bolt hole scanners with a request to make scanners that can drive probes up to 50 mm dia with stroke lengths of 400 to 500 mm and extend their soft ware to accommodate these enhanced limits.

With Best wishes,

P V SASTRY

 
 Reply 
 
Wieslaw Bicz
Engineering,
PBP Optel sp. z o.o., Poland, Joined Feb 2009, 259

Wieslaw Bicz

Engineering,
PBP Optel sp. z o.o.,
Poland,
Joined Feb 2009
259
14:47 Mar-21-2012
Re: How to detect cracks for inner surface of tube
In Reply to Phuong Vu Quang at 12:22 Mar-15-2012 (Opening).

It would be possible to make a machine, that can quickly test automatically test such pipes using ultrasound. The testing can be made in immersion from outside. We have made some devices, that are quite close to the requirements, that you have. Even small longitudinal cracks can be easily detected, as also all other flaws. Additionally it is possible to measure thickness of the wall.

 
 Reply 
 
Sudheer jai Krishnan
Sudheer jai Krishnan
18:08 Mar-21-2012
Re: How to detect cracks for inner surface of tube
In Reply to Phuong Vu Quang at 12:22 Mar-15-2012 (Opening).

Hello Phuong,

Please visit

http://www.olympus-ims.com/en/prs/

This is a phased array rotating tube inspection system. As i said you can contact Olympus NDT for references also

 
 Reply 
 
Norm Woodward
Norm Woodward
20:50 Mar-21-2012
Re: How to detect cracks for inner surface of tube
In Reply to P V SASTRY at 19:57 Mar-20-2012 .

I briefly considered mentioning the PS-5, but, as you noted, while it would be ideal for shorter tubes because it provides an automatic feed, and thus could produce a “waterfall” map of anomalies found inside the tubes, it is limited to about a 40mm scan distance. The scanners I had mentioned, plus the RA-2000, would only be limited by the length of the solid or flexible shaft you wish to incorporate into the probes. The disadvantage is that the operator of these scanners has to manually push or pull the spinning probe through the tubing, which means that if it is done too fast, it could miss a flaw. Fortunately, the probe spin speeds are usually several times faster than that of the PS-5, so that there is less chance of a conscientious inspector missing a flaw.

Of course, a more elaborate, custom-built apparatus providing these probes with an automatic feed mechanism would allow each tube’s internal surface to be completely mapped, showing not only the location of a crack, and a clue to its depth, but its approximate longitudinal length.

With a manual feed, the inspector can moves the probe to find the point of maximum response. However, without a backup procedure, he cannot really determine if it is a linear defect, or just a pit, which may affect the acceptability of the anomaly.

As to the diameters of the probes, they would probably only be limited by the torque that the motors in the scanners and the shafts of the probes can withstand.

The only reason I mentioned all this was the key words “manual”, “eddy current”, “longitudinal” and “carbon steel” (which would seem to negate any form of encircling probes).

 
 Reply 
 
Wieslaw Bicz
Engineering,
PBP Optel sp. z o.o., Poland, Joined Feb 2009, 259

Wieslaw Bicz

Engineering,
PBP Optel sp. z o.o.,
Poland,
Joined Feb 2009
259
22:43 Mar-21-2012
Re: How to detect cracks for inner surface of tube
In Reply to Sudheer jai Krishnan at 18:08 Mar-21-2012 .

This may be a good system, but in this case it would be an "overkill" in terms of complication and price. Much simpler device is possible here.

 
 Reply 
 
Paul Jones
Consultant, ASNT/NAS410/EN4179 Level III MT PT UT
Lavender International NDT, United Kingdom, Joined Nov 2011, 5

Paul Jones

Consultant, ASNT/NAS410/EN4179 Level III MT PT UT
Lavender International NDT,
United Kingdom,
Joined Nov 2011
5
23:29 Mar-22-2012
Re: How to detect cracks for inner surface of tube
In Reply to Phuong Vu Quang at 12:22 Mar-15-2012 (Opening).

My first job as a UT technician was to inspect extruded tubular products for internal bore cracks. The set up utilised an immersion system with a shear wave technique. This did the job. Seems like it may be the way forward for your scenario.

 
 Reply 
 
wieslaw
Engineering,
PBP Optel sp. z o.o., Poland, Joined Feb 2009, 259

wieslaw

Engineering,
PBP Optel sp. z o.o.,
Poland,
Joined Feb 2009
259
01:01 Mar-23-2012
Re: How to detect cracks for inner surface of tube
In Reply to Paul Jones at 23:29 Mar-22-2012 .

This is exactly the system, that I would propose.

 
 Reply 
 
Adel
Engineering, IRT Researcher
VISIOOIMAGE INC., Canada, Joined Feb 2012, 11

Adel

Engineering, IRT Researcher
VISIOOIMAGE INC.,
Canada,
Joined Feb 2012
11
01:18 Mar-23-2012
Re: How to detect cracks for inner surface of tube
In Reply to wieslaw at 01:01 Mar-23-2012 .


CNRC (Ottawa, Canada) has developped a thermal method for crak detection.
http://proceedings.aip.org/resource/2/apcpcs/1335/1/1727_1?isAuthorized=no

You can contact him for more info.

Adel

 
 Reply 
 
S V Swamy
Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex , India, Joined Feb 2001, 787

S V Swamy

Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex ,
India,
Joined Feb 2001
787
08:56 Mar-23-2012
Re: How to detect cracks for inner surface of tube
In Reply to Paul Jones at 23:29 Mar-22-2012 .

Such systems would be useful for longer tubes but this particular application is for short tubes. Though they could be joined to each other using nylon / rubber plugs, mechanical transport of such linkages poses problems. Also the end effects would leave some portion of each tube at both ends untested. These systems would also be relatively expensive because of the mechanization / automation.

I would think that the tubes are actually produced in much longer length and are cut to size later. I would suggest testing of the longer lengths before they are cut to length.

Swamy
Quality and NDT Consultant
Hyderabad, India

 
 Reply 
 
Chris
Engineering, Ultrasonic NDT systems engineer
Ultrasonic NDT, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 2011, 10

Chris

Engineering, Ultrasonic NDT systems engineer
Ultrasonic NDT,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 2011
10
17:44 Mar-23-2012
Re: How to detect cracks for inner surface of tube
In Reply to Phuong Vu Quang at 12:22 Mar-15-2012 (Opening).

Dear Sir,

I work for Unicorn Automation (NDT) ltd. We specialise in the design and manufacture of ultrasonic test systems. We have just developed a new ultrasonic rotary test system that will suit your specifications the URP50A. The URP50A will be on display at Tube 2012 in Düsseldorf next week if you happen to be going to the expo.

This rotary probe has adjustable angle transducers housed in an annular chamber. In operation, the annular chamber is maintained full of water and the tube passes through close tolerance inlet and outlet guides.

Rotating the ultrasonic transducers around a pipe/bar using a rotary probe offers distinct advantages over the more conventional methods of rotating or spiralling the product under test; notably High throughput test speed, on line location, multi-orientational testing (i.e. longitudinal, transverse, oblique defects or imperfections), simpler tube handling system and faster size change operations. All unicorn rotary probes utilize hydrostatic bearings which offer high load carrying characteristics and virtually no bearing wear. Rotary probes, of this type, have been utililized reliably over many years in an industrial environment.

The rotary head's mechanics can be supplied either separately or as part of a system package which includes the processing electronics and, if required, the conveyor / tube handling mechanic.

Size\Range -10mm to 61mm o.d.
Thickness range (for tube testing) - Diameter to Thickness ratio > 5.5:1
Bearing Type - Hydrostatic
Fixed Head speed - 3000 RPM
(Optional variable speed up to 4000 rpm)
Untested End Length - 50mm (1")
No. of transducers - Up to 8 (standard)
Probe application system - Rotating water chamber
(annulus)
Water Consumption - 40 litres/min at 2.5 bar
Testing Speed - Up to 2 metres/sec


Please feel free to contact me if you would like a quote.

Kind Regards,
Chris Forryan

 
 Reply 
 
P V SASTRY
R & D, NDT tecniques metallurgy
TAKEN VRS FROM THE POSITION OF SR. DEPUTY GENERAL MANAGER BHEL CORPORATE R&D, India, Joined Jan 2003, 195

P V SASTRY

R & D, NDT tecniques metallurgy
TAKEN VRS FROM THE POSITION OF SR. DEPUTY GENERAL MANAGER BHEL CORPORATE R&D,
India,
Joined Jan 2003
195
18:01 Mar-23-2012
Re: How to detect cracks for inner surface of tube
In Reply to Norm Woodward at 20:50 Mar-21-2012 .


Dear Sir,

I agree with you on the problems faced with manual feed with one of the existing scanners.

Building an “apparatus providing these probes with an automatic feed mechanism” with feed rate control is not a difficult task. This can be done without approaching the instrument manufacturer.

However I am apprehensive about two aspects.

1. Whether the motor in the RA- 2000 or other scanners has enough torque to drive the probes up to 50 mm dia.

If the motor has to be changed the instrument should be able to supply the additional current and this again falls in the preview of the instrument manufacturer.

But even this problem can be solved without the manufacturers help by putting external reduction gear system to increase the torque and then some speed has to be sacrificed.

2. The instrument generates the water fall map for the stroke length of the scanner.

Now how this will be taken care if we increase the stroke length by adding additional rod.

Here is where, I feel, the instrument manufacturer has to step in. Modification of the soft ware to take care of this aspect should not be a big deal.

I seek your views on these two aspects.

With best wishes

P V SASTRY

 
 Reply 
 
P V SASTRY
R & D, NDT tecniques metallurgy
TAKEN VRS FROM THE POSITION OF SR. DEPUTY GENERAL MANAGER BHEL CORPORATE R&D, India, Joined Jan 2003, 195

P V SASTRY

R & D, NDT tecniques metallurgy
TAKEN VRS FROM THE POSITION OF SR. DEPUTY GENERAL MANAGER BHEL CORPORATE R&D,
India,
Joined Jan 2003
195
18:05 Mar-23-2012
Re: How to detect cracks for inner surface of tube
In Reply to Wieslaw Bicz at 22:43 Mar-21-2012 .


I entirely agree with you on both counts

regards

P V SASTRY

 
 Reply 
 
Norm Woodward
Norm Woodward
20:51 Mar-23-2012
Re: How to detect cracks for inner surface of tube
In Reply to P V SASTRY at 18:01 Mar-23-2012 .


P V SASTRY-

Unfortunately, I am a materials engineer, not a mechanical engineer, so I don't have any quick answers to your most pertinent questions. And of course, I conveniently did not address another key word of his inquiry: “Portable…”

As to torque, I would think that as long as the probe head was balanced, it would be friction that would offer most of the resistance. Perhaps, if the inner surface of the tubes tended to be rough, some type of ceramic tips on the probes may be considered instead of Teflon. And probably spring loaded as well. Of course, an even more ambitious project would be a rigidly-held stationary probe, with the tube spinning and translating around it, thereby eliminating torque nearly altogether, but this is getting way away from my knowledge base.

As to regearing the scanner, to increase torque but reducing the angular velocity, I would think that this would have several disadvantages: lower productivity because of a lower feed rate (to get the same coverage) and perhaps more importantly, possible reduction in sensitivity of wider linear flaws. [BTW, everything I am saying is based on experience with non-ferrous materials. Perhaps with carbon steels, some of these concerns are groundless.]

As to software to locate and display the anomalies, perhaps gathering, recording, and analyzing the whole inside surface may not be necessary. Perhaps there needs to be a mechanism in the system that scans the tubes end to end, and only begins recording waterfall displays when triggered by a preset gate. Of course the images will be tagged with the rotation count of where the scan began so that follow up investigations/repairs can be performed. In this manner, the existing software which records 40 mm at a time could be used without much modification, and a massive data bank may not be needed.

Well, I have already shared more than I know, so I guess I should quit using up electrons…

Cheers,
Norm

 
 Reply 
 

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