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Controle Mesure Systemes
Contrôle Mesure Systèmes (CMS) is a leader in Non Destructive Testing (NDT) with a complete range of products for eddy current and ultrasonic i ...
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Technical Discussions
Mohd
Director,
Singapore, Joined Oct 2014, 8

Mohd

Director,
Singapore,
Joined Oct 2014
8
10:19 Feb-11-2015
Bottom Plate Tank Inspection (Without Shutting it down)

Hi guys,

just want to check if any can help me as I'm looking for an equipment which can perform the bottom plate tank inspection without the tank being shutdown.

I have come across Acoustic Emission but my client is not interested in it.

I was wondering if there some other equipment out there.

Thanks!

 
 Reply 
 
Philippe Rioux
R & D, Sonatest
Sonatest, Canada, Joined Jan 2015, 37

Philippe Rioux

R & D, Sonatest
Sonatest,
Canada,
Joined Jan 2015
37
13:10 Feb-11-2015
Re: Bottom Plate Tank Inspection (Without Shutting it down)
In Reply to Mohd at 10:19 Feb-11-2015 (Opening).

http://sonatest.com/products/range/phased-array/veo/16-64/ !!!!!

We sell wheelprobes and this give a fantastic combination. If it is just manual inspection, some users are also very happy with their T5 probe.
It is a detachable array with 64 elements. We also build custom wedges.

Please contact sales@sonatest.com if you want more information depending on your needings.

Regards,
Phil

 
 Reply 
 
Eraldo Pomponi
R & D, Teaching
Università Politecnica delle Marche, Italy, Joined May 2009, 7

Eraldo Pomponi

R & D, Teaching
Università Politecnica delle Marche,
Italy,
Joined May 2009
7
14:13 Feb-11-2015
Re: Bottom Plate Tank Inspection (Without Shutting it down)
In Reply to Mohd at 10:19 Feb-11-2015 (Opening).

I don't know of any other method that can perform this in-service inspection so this is a question for more experienced members of this forum.
However, for the sake of curiosity, I would really like to know, if possible, why there was
a so clear rejection of AE as a possible solution.

I'm trying to understand which is the "sentiment" of possible customers respect to the AE
NDT technology.

Best regards,
Eraldo

 
 Reply 
 
R P Bhan
R P Bhan
09:43 Feb-14-2015
Re: Bottom Plate Tank Inspection (Without Shutting it down)
In Reply to Eraldo Pomponi at 14:13 Feb-11-2015 .

It could be due to AE results in past have not been found to be 100 % reliable due to various reasons . It stems basically from the principle on which it works for tank bottom inspection .

There are vendors offering robotic inspection for bottom by putting robot from top but at a value.

 
 Reply 
 
Sudheer
Sudheer
11:15 Feb-14-2015
Re: Bottom Plate Tank Inspection (Without Shutting it down)
In Reply to Philippe Rioux at 13:10 Feb-11-2015 .

Philippe

Try to understand the question and please answer. Mohd asked for an inspection technique where he doesnt wants to empty the tank and needs to carry out the inspection of the bottom plates.

 
 Reply 
 
Debby Criel
Other, Inspection Engineer
Borealis, Belgium, Joined Oct 2013, 3

Debby Criel

Other, Inspection Engineer
Borealis,
Belgium,
Joined Oct 2013
3
13:24 Feb-16-2015
Re: Bottom Plate Tank Inspection (Without Shutting it down)
In Reply to Mohd at 10:19 Feb-11-2015 (Opening).

Hello,

We are dealing with the same problem, we want to investigate our fire water tank. So it is also not possible to empty our tank.

I had a few contacts for this examination and the possibilities for this were:
- using a diving company who can perform visual examinations + UT
- using a ROV robot with UT probe and camera for visual inspections.

I hope this will help you a bit further

Best regards,

Debby

 
 Reply 
 
Philippe Rioux
R & D, Sonatest
Sonatest, Canada, Joined Jan 2015, 37

Philippe Rioux

R & D, Sonatest
Sonatest,
Canada,
Joined Jan 2015
37
16:18 Feb-16-2015
Re: Bottom Plate Tank Inspection (Without Shutting it down)
In Reply to Mohd at 10:19 Feb-11-2015 (Opening).

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_Ms1MSca_xq7KDSYzPi_edQOfafgZdWa2jFYIutOC3Y/edit?usp=sharing

If you want a complete feasibility studies (Mohd or Debby) download this document.
Click on "Files" and save it as .docx. Fill it and send us back to us. Seeing the whole issue with pictures and criteria will be easy to answer after.

But overall to be brief:
The only limitation for linear scanning is flat surface. Rolling a WheelProbe requires flat/curve surface, access to a people and 20 cm clearance for the device itself.

 
 Reply 
 
Ed Ginzel
R & D, -
Materials Research Institute, Canada, Joined Nov 1998, 1286

Ed Ginzel

R & D, -
Materials Research Institute,
Canada,
Joined Nov 1998
1286
18:18 Feb-16-2015
Re: Bottom Plate Tank Inspection (Without Shutting it down)
In Reply to Philippe Rioux at 16:18 Feb-16-2015 .

Philippe, you again miss the point of the posting! Read the statement made "...bottom plate tank inspection without the tank being shutdown." Without the tank being shutdown indicates the tank will have liquid in it.
The link to a Sonatest feasibility form is not what Mohd is asking. Indeed, flat plates are easily inspected by roller UT or MFL options. But putting these on a tank floor with several metres of liquid in the tank is NOT feasible. The robotics and seals required in the electronics would make the process prohibitively costly.

Some years ago I saw a brochure by Sonotron showing a method using a form of CHIME to inspect the tank floor from the plate outside the tank in the skirt region. I do not recall the range of effectiveness but it did not require emptying the tank contents.

 
 Reply 
 
Philippe Rioux
R & D, Sonatest
Sonatest, Canada, Joined Jan 2015, 37

Philippe Rioux

R & D, Sonatest
Sonatest,
Canada,
Joined Jan 2015
37
18:47 Feb-16-2015
Re: Bottom Plate Tank Inspection (Without Shutting it down)
In Reply to Ed Ginzel at 18:18 Feb-16-2015 .

Ok, that means the inside is totally immersed as well as _exterior_. Water tanks into ground yes?
The only thing I know is that one of our costumers is working to inspect metal tube in ocean using the WheelProbe attached to an automated system. (the wire can be long up to 10 m. so the DFD is not in water :) )
The I see probably an AE as a solution. I know you guys can give then good contacts for him!

 
 Reply 
 
Ed Ginzel
R & D, -
Materials Research Institute, Canada, Joined Nov 1998, 1286

Ed Ginzel

R & D, -
Materials Research Institute,
Canada,
Joined Nov 1998
1286
20:09 Feb-16-2015
Re: Bottom Plate Tank Inspection (Without Shutting it down)
In Reply to Philippe Rioux at 18:47 Feb-16-2015 .

There are perhaps 300+ technical papers on inspection of storage tanks when you do a search on NDT.net. One such paper is at http://www.ndt.net/events/ECNDT2014/app/content/Paper/188_Papasalouros.pdf
There you can read about both the AE and the UT options. (Figure 3 of that document describes the technique from the annular ring that I saw in the 1990s from Sonotron).

 
 Reply 
 
Eraldo Pomponi
R & D, Teaching
Università Politecnica delle Marche, Italy, Joined May 2009, 7

Eraldo Pomponi

R & D, Teaching
Università Politecnica delle Marche,
Italy,
Joined May 2009
7
23:39 Feb-16-2015
Re: Bottom Plate Tank Inspection (Without Shutting it down)
In Reply to Ed Ginzel at 20:09 Feb-16-2015 .

Dear Mohd,

As Ed pointed out, NDT.net lists plenty of papers regarding your problem. Much more can be found on google. For instance, Ed linked a paper form one of the AE manager of PAC Greece. They can offer a set of commercial applications to help you solve your problem. On the other hand, what discouraged me from suggesting a similar review of the known literature about AE applications (Ed didn't limit it to AE but I do) was your answer to my inquire regarding why AE was dismissed so soon as a possible solution:

"It could be due to AE results in past have not been found to be 100 % reliable due to various reasons . It stems basically from the principle on which it works for tank bottom inspection ."

The last sentence is not clear and probably biased but I preferred not to fire nonconstructive flames. Now that the discussion seems to revamp interest on the AE technology, it would be nice to have a more in-depth description of what you meant.
Of course such kind of discussion doesn't offer you a solution to your problem but could help me, and probably others, to understand which are the real limitations of AE applications rather than an ill fame.

Best,
Eraldo


 
 Reply 
 
John Norman
Consultant, owner of business
NTS Ultrasonics Pty Ltd, Australia, Joined Oct 2012, 116

John Norman

Consultant, owner of business
NTS Ultrasonics Pty Ltd,
Australia,
Joined Oct 2012
116
01:20 Feb-17-2015
Re: Bottom Plate Tank Inspection (Without Shutting it down)
In Reply to Mohd at 10:19 Feb-11-2015 (Opening).

Hi Mohd.

If you do a google search for "robotic tank inspection" you will find several companies that have developed robotic tools for NDT inspections inside tanks that still contain product. I have no idea about capability or cost, but maybe they have some technology that could help you. For example, look at the Techcorr website and the AHak wesite.

These robots seem to be able to do ultrasonic inspection which might be useful to you.

Regards
John Norman

 
 Reply 
 
Fadzil
,
MRA International Sdn Bhd, Malaysia, Joined Mar 2015, 3

Fadzil

,
MRA International Sdn Bhd,
Malaysia,
Joined Mar 2015
3
01:17 Mar-17-2015
Re: Bottom Plate Tank Inspection (Without Shutting it down)
In Reply to Mohd at 10:19 Feb-11-2015 (Opening).

Hi!,

There is a Diagnostic Tool that can Screen the Entire Tank/Pipe or any Solid Metallic Object/Material, Internal & External On line with Zero Shutdown, which can detect Corrosion, Crack, Metallurgical, Mechanical & Erosion. The Tool also can measure and provide a good accuracy of the defect location with the sizing (Length,Width & Depth).

If you need further info regarding this, please contact me, I will provide you with the sample report as well.

Petronas, Shell are using it right now, next will be Chevron and TOTAL, I can provide the contact reference as well.

Thank you.

 
 Reply 
 
John Norman
Consultant, owner of business
NTS Ultrasonics Pty Ltd, Australia, Joined Oct 2012, 116

John Norman

Consultant, owner of business
NTS Ultrasonics Pty Ltd,
Australia,
Joined Oct 2012
116
01:55 Mar-17-2015
Re: Bottom Plate Tank Inspection (Without Shutting it down)
In Reply to Fadzil at 01:17 Mar-17-2015 .

Hi Fadzil.

I see that your company promotes a technology called "Phonon Diagnostic Technology". How does this differ from conventional acoustic emission technology? Are the sensors different in some way?

Regards
John Norman

 
 Reply 
 
fatima
fatima
17:00 May-06-2015
Re: Bottom Plate Tank Inspection (Without Shutting it down)
In Reply to Fadzil at 01:17 Mar-17-2015 .

Fadzil, I appreciate it if you can provide me some information regarding this technology, sample report and contact reference as well.

 
 Reply 
 
Fadzil Othman
,
MRA International Sdn Bhd, Malaysia, Joined Mar 2015, 3

Fadzil Othman

,
MRA International Sdn Bhd,
Malaysia,
Joined Mar 2015
3
17:09 May-06-2015
Re: Bottom Plate Tank Inspection (Without Shutting it down)
In Reply to fatima at 17:00 May-06-2015 .

Hi Fatima,

You may email to me (fadzil@mra-sb.com) or call +60193229090

Thank you.

Regards.

 
 Reply 
 
Harendra Latiyan
Harendra Latiyan
13:01 May-09-2015
Re: Bottom Plate Tank Inspection (Without Shutting it down)
In Reply to Mohd at 10:19 Feb-11-2015 (Opening).

Hi,
It might be worth having a look at the paper from APCNDT 2013. It speaks about a monitoring technique for tank floor.

http://www.ndt.net/article/apcndt2013/papers/049.pdf

As far as I understand it will not be the solution for your immediate requirement, however development & implementation of such technologies might be a value addition over a longer run, especially if the number of tanks in operation is large and cost implication of shutdown are high.

Harendra

 
 Reply 
 
Prabhath Kaimal
Prabhath Kaimal
10:39 Jan-09-2018
Re: Bottom Plate Tank Inspection (Without Shutting it down)
In Reply to Mohd at 10:19 Feb-11-2015 (Opening).

You can go with Phonon Technology.

 
 Reply 
 

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