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Technical Discussions
Ashwani Kumar
Ashwani Kumar
12:16 Jun-25-2015
IQI in castings

It is always best to keep IQI on the source side but in some cases it is just not feasible to keep the IQI on the source side and get the proper sensitivity.

Our customer is not permitting to keep the IQI on the film side, Please advise what to do?

 
 Reply 
 
fereidoon zolfaghari NDT Level III
NDT Inspector,
Iran, Joined Jun 2015, 12

fereidoon zolfaghari NDT Level III

NDT Inspector,
Iran,
Joined Jun 2015
12
12:30 Jun-25-2015
Re: IQI in castings
In Reply to Ashwani Kumar at 12:16 Jun-25-2015 (Opening).

zoom image



Actually you can:; but one IQI penalty if you place film side I mean i.e if it is supposed to see 2 wire you should show 3 wire on film.

T-277.1 Placement of IQIs
(a) Source-Side IQI(s). The IQI(s) shall be placed on the source side of the part being examined, except for the condition described in T-277.1(b). When, due to part or weld configuration or size, it is not practical to place the IQI(s) on the part or weld, the IQI(s) may be placed on a separate block. Separate blocks shall be made of the same or radiographically similar materials
(as defined in SE-1025) and may be used to facilitate IQI positioning. There is no restriction on the separate block thickness, provided the IQI/area-of-interest density tolerance requirements of T-282.2 are met.
 
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jon wallis
NDT Inspector, -
Netherlands, Joined Feb 2010, 626

jon wallis

NDT Inspector, -
Netherlands,
Joined Feb 2010
626
13:21 Jun-25-2015
Re: IQI in castings
In Reply to Ashwani Kumar at 12:16 Jun-25-2015 (Opening).

Norms generally dictate a source side IQI but will permit a film side IQI only if it is not practicable to place the IQI on the source side.
Not being able to see the required IQI wire or hole is not a reason to place it on the film side, you will need to improve your set-up, use a finer grain film or use another radiation source to improve the exposure.
Your customer is correct.

 
 Reply 
 
fereidoon zolfaghari
NDT Inspector,
Iran, Joined Jun 2015, 12

fereidoon zolfaghari

NDT Inspector,
Iran,
Joined Jun 2015
12
13:49 Jun-25-2015
Re: IQI in castings
In Reply to Ashwani Kumar at 12:16 Jun-25-2015 (Opening).

Norms in your language may be implied as standard even if it is usual practice also can not dictate. you should see your project,s general condition. but can anyone state that why we should not place it on film side rather source side. if you know logic then you will allow film side with 1 wire penalty. Regards

 
 Reply 
 
jon wallis
NDT Inspector, -
Netherlands, Joined Feb 2010, 626

jon wallis

NDT Inspector, -
Netherlands,
Joined Feb 2010
626
14:12 Jun-25-2015
Re: IQI in castings
In Reply to fereidoon zolfaghari at 13:49 Jun-25-2015 .

Let's take an example: DWDI elliptical exposure of a 2"diameter pipe weld.
If you place the IQI on the source side and your source/object distance is sufficient you will see the correct wire or hole (given that other parameters are also correct). Now, if you place the IQI on the film side and bring the source/object distance down to 200mm say, what do you think you will see? You certainly won't be able to interpret the source side of the weld but chances are that you will see the required wire or hole.
The requirement for a source side IQI is not for nothing and you cannot just decide to not conform because it makes life easier (or cheaper) and hope that your customer hasn't got the expertise to spot short cuts.

 
 Reply 
 
fereidoon zolfaghari NDT level III
NDT Inspector,
Iran, Joined Jun 2015, 12

fereidoon zolfaghari NDT level III

NDT Inspector,
Iran,
Joined Jun 2015
12
22:10 Jun-25-2015
Re: IQI in castings
In Reply to jon wallis at 14:12 Jun-25-2015 .

zoom image



Dear jon ,
If the source side of the film is not visible the how you can see that side IQI. That IQI also will not be visible due to enlargement.
The logic behind why the code requires but not compels the IQI placed in source side not film side is that radiation attenuated and scattered from wires that are placed between film and object will strike on film and the wire image will be seen sharply with better definition which ITS IMAGE about 25% better sensitivity but in fact fake. This 25% approximate fake sensitivity you should compensate by making radiograph quality better by showing one more extra wires if you need to place IQI film side. In fact putting IQI film side can be optional if you meet above conditions illustrated as follows.
From the attached table for example for thickness range 6.4 mm to 9.5 base metal thickness you can put IQI source side and the thinnest visible wire should be number 6. The thickness of wire number 6 is 0.25 mm and i.e. sensitivity for 9.5 thickness is 0.25/9.5*100=2.6. at the same time if you require to put IQI film side the film is required to show wire number 5 which its thickness is 0.20/9.5*100=2.1 sensitivity. Here you are sanctioned and fined. The difference between 0.25 and 0.20 is 0.05 about 25% which you have compensated wire based and difference between 2.1 and 2.6 sensitivity is 0.5 where you are fined equally or approximately same percentage sensitivity base so you can use both option , you are full authorised source and film side but you should compensate by accepting the said penalty or fine.
Regards
 
 Reply 
 
jon wallis
NDT Inspector, -
Netherlands, Joined Feb 2010, 626

jon wallis

NDT Inspector, -
Netherlands,
Joined Feb 2010
626
08:05 Jun-26-2015
Re: IQI in castings
In Reply to fereidoon zolfaghari NDT level III at 22:10 Jun-25-2015 .

I was trying to give an example of the reason for the requirement to place the IQI on the source side.
My 2007 edition of ASME 2 states,
"Where inaccessibility prevents placing the IQI on the source side, the IQI shall be placed on the film side...."
Maybe this has been revised in a later edition but if not then this is clear and concise. This is not a free choice.

 
 Reply 
 
fereidoon zolfaghari
NDT Inspector,
Iran, Joined Jun 2015, 12

fereidoon zolfaghari

NDT Inspector,
Iran,
Joined Jun 2015
12
05:48 Jun-27-2015
Re: IQI in castings
In Reply to jon wallis at 08:05 Jun-26-2015 .

Is it possible to put IQI Inside the 2 inch pipe source side. for many pipe RT circumstances due to inaccessibility of inside or exact opposite side of film thickness side can not put IQI source side.

 
 Reply 
 
Shankar Arumugam
Other, NDE Engineer
India, Joined Oct 2013, 39

Shankar Arumugam

Other, NDE Engineer
India,
Joined Oct 2013
39
10:45 Jun-27-2015
Re: IQI in castings
In Reply to Ashwani Kumar at 12:16 Jun-25-2015 (Opening).

IQI (hole type or wire type) should be placed in source side of the part being examined. Where inaccessibility prevents hand placing the IQI on the source side, the IQI shall be placed on the film side in contact with the part being examined. A lead letter "F" shall be placed adjacent to the or on the IQI.

only where inaccessibility to place IQI on source side, we should go for film side IQI. For any other reasons (to achieve sensitivity) we shall not go for film side IQI.

If source side IQI placing is possible, we should place IQI on source side only.

 
 Reply 
 
Shank4u
India, Joined Jun 2014, 73

Shank4u

India,
Joined Jun 2014
73
13:05 Jun-28-2015
Re: IQI in castings
In Reply to fereidoon zolfaghari NDT level III at 22:10 Jun-25-2015 .

The logic behind placement of IQI on source side is to make sure you catch indications present in all section of the test body. You will readily get indications near the bottom part due to its proximity to film, but top ones will tend to get enlarged and may fall out of the film boundary. If you catch indications near the top section, you will definitely cover full section. This is confirmed by a clear image in the film of IQI on source side.

 
 Reply 
 
Dr. Uwe Zscherpel
Director,
BAM Berlin, Germany, Joined Jan 2010, 89

Dr. Uwe Zscherpel

Director,
BAM Berlin,
Germany,
Joined Jan 2010
89
10:12 Jun-29-2015
Re: IQI in castings
In Reply to Shank4u at 13:05 Jun-28-2015 .

The new ISO 17636 (weld inspection, independently if film -1 or digital -2) allows you to use a reference exposure to show which source side IQI value corresponds to which film side IQI value, if for practical reasons the IQI cannot placed on source side.

 
 Reply 
 
S S Ananthan
Consultant,
RAA Tech Solutions, India, Joined Jun 2000, 36

S S Ananthan

Consultant,
RAA Tech Solutions,
India,
Joined Jun 2000
36
16:21 Jun-29-2015
Re: IQI in castings
In Reply to jon wallis at 08:05 Jun-26-2015 .

Mr Jon Willis, You are right

ASME Sec V 2013 sates

T-277.1 (b) states

" (b) Film-Side IQI(s). Where inaccessibility prevents hand
placing the IQI(s) on the source side, the IQI(s) shall be
placed on the film side in contact with the part being examined.
A lead letter “F” shall be placed adjacent to or
on the IQI(s), but shall not mask the essential hole where
hole IQIs are used."

Hence you can place IQIs on film side only when it is inaccessible for placement on source side.

S S A

 
 Reply 
 
fereidoon zolfaghari
NDT Inspector,
Iran, Joined Jun 2015, 12

fereidoon zolfaghari

NDT Inspector,
Iran,
Joined Jun 2015
12
18:26 Jun-29-2015
Re: IQI in castings
In Reply to S S Ananthan at 16:21 Jun-29-2015 .

Even if interpreter is quite professional the B letter also will not be necessary because if back scatter exists the radiograph"s density and sensitivity will not come in the range Ug so.

 
 Reply 
 
Gerald R. Reams
Engineering,
Industry, USA, Joined Aug 2012, 182

Gerald R. Reams

Engineering,
Industry,
USA,
Joined Aug 2012
182
19:45 Jun-29-2015
Re: IQI in castings
In Reply to fereidoon zolfaghari at 18:26 Jun-29-2015 .

If the requirements specify the use of the B letter, then you must use the B letter and evaluate the radiograph accordingly.

 
 Reply 
 

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