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- since 1996 -
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Technical Discussions
Tuong
NDT Inspector, PV EIC NDT
PV EIC NDT, Vietnam, Joined Mar 2014, 19

Tuong

NDT Inspector, PV EIC NDT
PV EIC NDT,
Vietnam,
Joined Mar 2014
19
14:47 Dec-25-2015
PAUT Perform Finding Crack In Parent Matal

Dear Sirs
Sirs for me advices
I have a discus that:
I am sirvey a tank, there is a parent crack finding by visual( lenth of defect is 200mm , shell thickness 20 mm), now my client request use PAUT to find any orther defect the same in parent matal at leat 1m near that crack.
How can i cary out best in this case, Settup method,Probes use,...
My Equipment using is MX2 Olympus
Thanks and best regards,

 
 Reply 
 
massimo carminati
Consultant, AUT specialist
IMG Ultrasuoni Srl, Italy, Joined Apr 2007, 691

massimo carminati

Consultant, AUT specialist
IMG Ultrasuoni Srl,
Italy,
Joined Apr 2007
691
08:41 Dec-26-2015
Re: PAUT Perform Finding Crack In Parent Matal
In Reply to Tuong at 14:47 Dec-25-2015 (Opening).

You are probably requested to find a surface breaking crack. depending on which PA probe you have available (16 or 64 elements) I would strongly reccomend not to use a frequency lower than 5 MHz, because if you want to do sizing than yoiu need a good resolution to detect and doscriminate diffraction tips. Go for a single or multiple sscan and when you find the crack, you can be more precise in sizing if you can perform tofd inspection with PCS centerend across the crack (use parallel scanning to center) with 55 to 60 degrees and beam intersection at 2 mm from the backwall. With 20 mm thickness I would recommand at least 7.5 MHz, better if 10.

 
 Reply 
 
Tuong
NDT Inspector, PV EIC NDT
PV EIC NDT, Vietnam, Joined Mar 2014, 19

Tuong

NDT Inspector, PV EIC NDT
PV EIC NDT,
Vietnam,
Joined Mar 2014
19
12:35 Dec-26-2015
Re: PAUT Perform Finding Crack In Parent Matal
In Reply to massimo carminati at 08:41 Dec-26-2015 .

Dear Massimo Carminati
Thanks for your advived,
Follow your advice, I'll settup TCG, Sentivity for the same when scan weld joint?
PAUT Probe i will use is 5L64A12. TOFD probes is (45, 60 5 Mhz),(70 is 10 Mhz) degree.
Regards

 
 Reply 
 
Ed Ginzel
R & D, -
Materials Research Institute, Canada, Joined Nov 1998, 1274

Ed Ginzel

R & D, -
Materials Research Institute,
Canada,
Joined Nov 1998
1274
15:03 Dec-26-2015
Re: PAUT Perform Finding Crack In Parent Matal
In Reply to Tuong at 14:47 Dec-25-2015 (Opening).

Tuong. if the suspected cracking is surface breaking and you have access to that surface, it may be more effective to use magnetic particle inspection if the tank is carbon steel (or liquid penetrant inspection if the tank is stainless steel). Another option is to consider eddy current array technology. Perhaps manual ultrasonic testing (monoelement or PAUT) could be successful, but you will need to move relatively slowly, skewing the beam in all directions, to ensure that all possible orientations of the crack are covered.

 
 Reply 
 
Tuong
NDT Inspector, PV EIC NDT
PV EIC NDT, Vietnam, Joined Mar 2014, 19

Tuong

NDT Inspector, PV EIC NDT
PV EIC NDT,
Vietnam,
Joined Mar 2014
19
00:56 Dec-27-2015
Re: PAUT Perform Finding Crack In Parent Matal
In Reply to Ed Ginzel at 15:03 Dec-26-2015 .

zoom image


Crack

Dear Ed Ginzel,
I felt very happy for your advices,
Maybe you dont understand me, that crack indicated on surface of tank found by visualt ( See attached image file please),now I want perform tests to find any crack the same at zone at least 1m near that crack use PAUT +ToFD method without remove paint,
 
 Reply 
 
Ed Ginzel
R & D, -
Materials Research Institute, Canada, Joined Nov 1998, 1274

Ed Ginzel

R & D, -
Materials Research Institute,
Canada,
Joined Nov 1998
1274
16:01 Dec-27-2015
Re: PAUT Perform Finding Crack In Parent Matal
In Reply to Tuong at 00:56 Dec-27-2015 .

Thank you for the photo. It suggests the tank is carbon steel that has a light paint on the surface where the cracks were found. Based on this, liquid penetrant inspection would not be appropriate. A problem could exist with visual testing if the crack does not break the paint. Another concern is for the shape of the crack. It is not a straight line and seems to have different orientations at different points along the crack. This means that you will need to pivot your ultrasonic beam in many directions if you want to assure detecting other cracks with UT. This manual process would be slow and you would not have high confidence assuring you can position the beam perpendicular to the crack. Other cracks in the region may not be as long as the one in your photo so may not be easily identified by manual UT.
The "black on white" MPI method might be suitable to do a general surface detection for location. UT could then followup to investigate extent and depth.
Eddy Current Array inspection could provide a similar large area coverage to detect the cracks with multiple orientations, but the inspection would be more costly than the MPI option of black-on-white.

 
 Reply 
 
Tuong
NDT Inspector, PV EIC NDT
PV EIC NDT, Vietnam, Joined Mar 2014, 19

Tuong

NDT Inspector, PV EIC NDT
PV EIC NDT,
Vietnam,
Joined Mar 2014
19
02:45 Dec-28-2015
Re: PAUT Perform Finding Crack In Parent Matal
In Reply to Ed Ginzel at 16:01 Dec-27-2015 .

Dear Ed Ginzel,
Thank you so much for your advices,
Can I use TOFD for finding first? Because TOFD dont need right direction to crack,Will I conform by different method when fuond indicate by ToFD?
Best Regars

 
 Reply 
 
Mohammed Tahir
Saudi Arabia, Joined Dec 2015, 2

Mohammed Tahir

Saudi Arabia,
Joined Dec 2015
2
09:08 Dec-28-2015
Re: PAUT Perform Finding Crack In Parent Matal
In Reply to Tuong at 02:45 Dec-28-2015 .

Hi,, sir may be we cannot use TOFD on this, TOFD have some limitations to find on near surface and back surface indications,,,

 
 Reply 
 
Ed Ginzel
R & D, -
Materials Research Institute, Canada, Joined Nov 1998, 1274

Ed Ginzel

R & D, -
Materials Research Institute,
Canada,
Joined Nov 1998
1274
14:56 Dec-28-2015
Re: PAUT Perform Finding Crack In Parent Matal
In Reply to Tuong at 02:45 Dec-28-2015 .

As noted by Mohammed, TOFD will be of limited use due to the dead zone in the lateral wave. From the photo image, the paint appears to be relatively thin (rust is starting to appear through it) and if well bonded it can provide a nice contracting background when using the spray-on magnetic black "ink".

 
 Reply 
 
Brett Davis
Brett Davis
15:14 Jan-25-2016
Re: PAUT Perform Finding Crack In Parent Matal
In Reply to Tuong at 00:56 Dec-27-2015 .

There is another method, especially if you do not want to remove coating, to detect these surface cracks that may not be seen by visually. Pending the depth of the crack we can give you a depth measurement as well. Please let me know if you would be interested in learning more.

 
 Reply 
 
Charlie Jackson
Charlie Jackson
08:13 Jan-26-2016
Re: PAUT Perform Finding Crack In Parent Matal
In Reply to Tuong at 14:47 Dec-25-2015 (Opening).

Tuong

Whilst the crack looks quite dramatic it does look rusted and old, although the image is not too clear. Whilst there is some good sound advice in the mails I would ensure first you discount the possibility of an original rolling discontinuity. You may want to metallurgical replication on both ends and the middle to ascertain its age and type. Whilst you are waiting for these results a good manual UT guy should be able to tell you what the defect is likely to be and what its orientation is.

Regards

Charlie

 
 Reply 
 
Charlie Jackson
Charlie Jackson
08:18 Jan-26-2016
Re: PAUT Perform Finding Crack In Parent Matal
In Reply to Brett Davis at 15:14 Jan-25-2016 .

Brett

From your mail it would suggest you have a secret panacea for such flaws. This mail is to remind you this is a forum for technicians to share knowledge and experiences openly.

Regards

Charlie

 
 Reply 
 
Tuong
NDT Inspector, PV EIC NDT
PV EIC NDT, Vietnam, Joined Mar 2014, 19

Tuong

NDT Inspector, PV EIC NDT
PV EIC NDT,
Vietnam,
Joined Mar 2014
19
09:29 Jan-26-2016
Re: PAUT Perform Finding Crack In Parent Matal
In Reply to Charlie Jackson at 08:13 Jan-26-2016 .

Dear Sirs,
Thanks for advice,
The reason crack is the Workers loaded liquid nitrogen not follow procedure to local cold. We are already PAUT scan, UT scan in multiple direction and there is no finding other crack.
Currently we are evaluating the repairs it
Regards

 
 Reply 
 
Brett Davis
Sales, Sales, Applications, Training, Services, NDT, Pipeline
PTC & DavisBrett LP, USA, Joined Oct 2012, 13

Brett Davis

Sales, Sales, Applications, Training, Services, NDT, Pipeline
PTC & DavisBrett LP,
USA,
Joined Oct 2012
13
20:35 Jan-26-2016
Re: PAUT Perform Finding Crack In Parent Matal
In Reply to Charlie Jackson at 08:18 Jan-26-2016 .

Charlie,

Not secret, just not commercially available yet and I have more questions needed to be answered which some clients may not always be willing to discuss on open forums. Many people will discuss offline without sharing extraneous details. I am not trying to hide anything so if you would like to learn more information concerning this technique; I would be more than happy to ask you the same questions and provide the same responses offline that I have done so before.

 
 Reply 
 
Charlie
Charlie
22:16 Jan-26-2016
Re: PAUT Perform Finding Crack In Parent Matal
In Reply to Brett Davis at 20:35 Jan-26-2016 .

Bret
As I said Bret this is an open forum for exchanging experiences and views, so should you have anything positive to add please participate in an open manner.

 
 Reply 
 
Louis
Other,
Eddyfi, Canada, Joined May 2013, 31

Louis

Other,
Eddyfi,
Canada,
Joined May 2013
31
22:20 Jan-26-2016
Re: PAUT Perform Finding Crack In Parent Matal
In Reply to Tuong at 09:29 Jan-26-2016 .

zoom image
Hello Tuong,
As pointed out by Mr. Ginzel, eddy current array (ECA) is potentially very well suited to your application. Although it appears like you want to use an ultrasonic method, I am taking the liberty of including an example of ECA data showing surface-breaking cracks. The image shows stress-corrosion cracking, but ECA can also be used on other types of surface-breaking cracks/discontinuities. It can be used on ferrous and non-ferrous materials and some technological variations (like Tangential ECA) can tolerate a few millimeters of lift off (think paint/coating). I hope this helps. Louis
 
 Reply 
 
Brett Davis
Brett Davis
03:07 Jan-27-2016
Re: PAUT Perform Finding Crack In Parent Matal
In Reply to Charlie at 22:16 Jan-26-2016 .

Tuong
Thank you for the email and I will gladly supply you with a feasibility study backing any claims. As soon as I am available to share this information publicly I will be more than happy to do so! Again please let me know if I can assist you.

Brett

 
 Reply 
 
Frank Lund
R & D,
United Kingdom, Joined Apr 2005, 219

Frank Lund

R & D,
United Kingdom,
Joined Apr 2005
219
11:34 Jan-27-2016
Re: PAUT Perform Finding Crack In Parent Matal
In Reply to Louis at 22:20 Jan-26-2016 .

Louis,

You remind me of the kit I designed ~15 years ago to find cracks in the surface of rail at walking pace. It won an award for Most Significant Contribution to Railway Safety.

Cheers,

Frank

 
 Reply 
 
Frank Lund
R & D,
United Kingdom, Joined Apr 2005, 219

Frank Lund

R & D,
United Kingdom,
Joined Apr 2005
219
11:42 Jan-27-2016
Re: PAUT Perform Finding Crack In Parent Matal
In Reply to Tuong at 00:56 Dec-27-2015 .

Tuong,

You remind me of probes that I designed in the 1990s for finding surface cracking etc. on the outside of process vessels.

Cheers,

Frank

 
 Reply 
 

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