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Acoustic Emission Consulting, Inc.
Acoustic Emission Consulting, Inc. specializes in the design of small portable AE instruments for field and lab use.
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Technical Discussions
Mohammed
R & D
South Korea, Joined Oct 2010, 27

Mohammed

R & D
South Korea,
Joined Oct 2010
27
08:40 Apr-17-2012
UT in accordance with AWS D1.1

Hello
As I understand (and remember), for UT of welds according to AWS code, the minimum thickness of the inspected material is 8mm.
My questions : is this condition set considering the skip distance and probes size? is it related to the sound beam behavior in thin materials? do you have other explanation for why AWS does not account for materials thinner than 8mm?
Thank you

 
 Reply 
 
john
john
21:22 Apr-17-2012
Re: UT in accordance with AWS D1.1
In Reply to Mohammed at 08:40 Apr-17-2012 (Opening).

my guess is part saturation with that size of probe and the fact that you would need to be almost directly on top of the weld to inspect it

 
 Reply 
 
CARLOS OLIVA
CARLOS OLIVA
22:55 Apr-17-2012
Re: UT in accordance with AWS D1.1
In Reply to john at 21:22 Apr-17-2012 .

FRIEND,

YOU MUST USE THE ANNEX "S" of AWS D1.1.
DO YOU RECOMMEND USING AN INSPECTION ANGLE TRANSDUCER TYPE TRANSMITTER + RECEIVER.

WELDING AND GRINDING SHOULD PASS OVER THE TRANSDUCER WELDING.

 
 Reply 
 
john
john
17:23 Apr-18-2012
Re: UT in accordance with AWS D1.1
In Reply to CARLOS OLIVA at 22:55 Apr-17-2012 .

Annex S was not part of the original question. you can do or use almost anything with the engineering approval. My thought is that the original question was for the actual body of the D1.1 code, not the annex.


"WELDING AND GRINDING SHOULD PASS OVER THE TRANSDUCER WELDING."

I don't even know what you are trying to say here?

 
 Reply 
 
Michel Couture
NDT Inspector,
consultant, Canada, Joined Sep 2006, 869

Michel Couture

NDT Inspector,
consultant,
Canada,
Joined Sep 2006
869
04:15 Apr-19-2012
Re: UT in accordance with AWS D1.1
In Reply to john at 17:23 Apr-18-2012 .

Mohamed,

I haven't done the maths, but if you use the formulas to find out what is the Near Field for the probe you are using for the inspection (0.75 inch, 2.25MHz), you will most likely find the answer to your question.

 
 Reply 
 
Ed Ginzel
R & D, -
Materials Research Institute, Canada, Joined Nov 1998, 1286

Ed Ginzel

R & D, -
Materials Research Institute,
Canada,
Joined Nov 1998
1286
13:57 Apr-19-2012
Re: UT in accordance with AWS D1.1
In Reply to Mohammed at 08:40 Apr-17-2012 (Opening).

Mohammed, I do not have an explanation for AWS limiting the procedures described in Section 6 to 8-200mm. But your thoughts on probe size and skip distance are practical considerations that MAY have been the basis for the AWS NDT committee putting limits on the normal range. But thicknesses over and under this range are not unaccounted for. AWS refers you to the Annex for alternative UT Procedures that could be presented to the engineer for situations where you would like to test thicknesses less than those identified in Section 6. This would be like EN 1714 allowing you to apply the described techniques on thicknesses and materials other than steel 8mm and greater, by agreement between the contracting parties.

 
 Reply 
 
Mohammed
R & D
South Korea, Joined Oct 2010, 27

Mohammed

R & D
South Korea,
Joined Oct 2010
27
03:08 Apr-20-2012
Re: UT in accordance with AWS D1.1
In Reply to john at 21:22 Apr-17-2012 .

Thank John for your input;
me either guess that the saturation thing need to be investigated

 
 Reply 
 
Mohammed
R & D
South Korea, Joined Oct 2010, 27

Mohammed

R & D
South Korea,
Joined Oct 2010
27
03:13 Apr-20-2012
Re: UT in accordance with AWS D1.1
In Reply to Michel Couture at 04:15 Apr-19-2012 .

Thank Mr. Couture
Yes I agree on the near field issue, do you have any info if there are new probes/technology to overcome this limitation?
I guess the simulation capabilities + the huge options of probes would help to optimize this kind of inspection. Just guess :) because I have no enough knowledge about these new technologies

 
 Reply 
 
Mohammed
R & D
South Korea, Joined Oct 2010, 27

Mohammed

R & D
South Korea,
Joined Oct 2010
27
03:22 Apr-20-2012
Re: UT in accordance with AWS D1.1
In Reply to Ed Ginzel at 13:57 Apr-19-2012 .

Thanks Mr. Ginzel
I appreciate your valuable contribution.
From R&D stand point, will you rely on the practical considerations and engineers decision (estimation)? or you will think it is better to more investigate this issue to find out the true reason and thus think about some way to optimize?

 
 Reply 
 
john
john
18:18 Apr-20-2012
Re: UT in accordance with AWS D1.1
In Reply to Mohammed at 03:08 Apr-20-2012 .

with that size probe and beam spread coupled with the distance from the exit point to the front of the probe, your 70-deg sound path turns into a wave front with no particular measurable angle, only a wave-front traveling through the part. you will get responses back from indications, but you would not be able to tell if they are from ID or OD, or you will get ID and OD responses back at the same time.
So unless you have the "approval" to use smaller probes, the min thks requirements of the referencing code section shall be followed. Super-dave would agree.

 
 Reply 
 
David
NDT Inspector,
USA, Joined Apr 2011, 11

David

NDT Inspector,
USA,
Joined Apr 2011
11
03:56 Apr-22-2012
Re: UT in accordance with AWS D1.1
In Reply to john at 18:18 Apr-20-2012 .

Haha! You can inspect anything to AWS if you choose to deviate from the code as I was instructed to do by my level III. Did I follow his instruction? Absolutely not! The owner engineer has the final saying on what you can and can't do outside of AWS D1.1 or any other code.

 
 Reply 
 
Mohammed
R & D
South Korea, Joined Oct 2010, 27

Mohammed

R & D
South Korea,
Joined Oct 2010
27
02:52 Apr-23-2012
Re: UT in accordance with AWS D1.1
In Reply to john at 18:18 Apr-20-2012 .

Thanks again John
I believe this is the most important point that would be considered when they set the min thickness limit (sound beam behavior in the small thickness material).

 
 Reply 
 
dinesh kannan
dinesh kannan
12:10 Dec-02-2015
Re: UT in accordance with AWS D1.1
In Reply to CARLOS OLIVA at 22:55 Apr-17-2012 .

i want to know about annex s codes because i didnt here about that please explain about that code i need to scan structural joint pl-pl 6mm thickness

 
 Reply 
 
Paul Holloway
Consultant,
Holloway NDT & Engineering Inc , Canada, Joined Apr 2010, 227

Paul Holloway

Consultant,
Holloway NDT & Engineering Inc ,
Canada,
Joined Apr 2010
227
16:46 Dec-03-2015
Re: UT in accordance with AWS D1.1
In Reply to dinesh kannan at 12:10 Dec-02-2015 .

Dinesh:

Between 2010 and 2015, AWS D1.1 Annex S has moved to Annex Q.

Have you bothered to read either code sections? All that you need to know is in there. Asking the world to distill code meanings for you rather than to read it yourself is concerning. A good inspector should always be up to speed on the codes and requirements they are following.

At the end of the day, if something goes awry and you get audited, you can't say "I saw it on an internet forum".

Also, you should use the search box in the upper right before resurrecting a 3 year old thread.

 
 Reply 
 
Jorge Perdigon
NDT Inspector, Teacher at Universidad Central de Venezuela - Factultad de Ingenieria
IEMAT, ca, Venezuela, Joined Jul 2009, 10

Jorge Perdigon

NDT Inspector, Teacher at Universidad Central de Venezuela - Factultad de Ingenieria
IEMAT, ca,
Venezuela,
Joined Jul 2009
10
20:41 Nov-06-2016
Re: UT in accordance with AWS D1.1
In Reply to Paul Holloway at 16:46 Dec-03-2015 .

Dear all

What is the Scanning Level for Sound Paths greater than 380 mm (15 in)?

best regards

Jorge Perdigon Teran

 
 Reply 
 
Paul Holloway
Consultant,
Holloway NDT & Engineering Inc , Canada, Joined Apr 2010, 227

Paul Holloway

Consultant,
Holloway NDT & Engineering Inc ,
Canada,
Joined Apr 2010
227
20:47 Nov-06-2016
Re: UT in accordance with AWS D1.1
In Reply to Jorge Perdigon at 20:41 Nov-06-2016 .

Jorge,

The table of scanning levels below Table 6.3 stops at 45 dB scanning gain for 15 inches sound path. I would use that, but good luck resolving anything amidst all the noise you're likely to get.

-Paul

 
 Reply 
 
Jorge Perdigon
NDT Inspector, Teacher at Universidad Central de Venezuela - Factultad de Ingenieria
IEMAT, ca, Venezuela, Joined Jul 2009, 10

Jorge Perdigon

NDT Inspector, Teacher at Universidad Central de Venezuela - Factultad de Ingenieria
IEMAT, ca,
Venezuela,
Joined Jul 2009
10
21:05 Nov-06-2016
Re: UT in accordance with AWS D1.1
In Reply to Paul Holloway at 20:47 Nov-06-2016 .

Paul

For statically loaded using Table 6.2 (AWS D1.1-2015) and under the table 6.2 indicates 39 dB gain to 15 inches (380 mm) of Sound Path.
I have excess noise.
For thickness of 4 inches with 70 degree angle for each leg the Souund Path is 292 mm. Three (3) leg has 877 mm of Sound Path.
877 mm is greater than 380 mm this motivates my question

Jorge Perdigon

 
 Reply 
 
Paul Holloway
Consultant,
Holloway NDT & Engineering Inc , Canada, Joined Apr 2010, 227

Paul Holloway

Consultant,
Holloway NDT & Engineering Inc ,
Canada,
Joined Apr 2010
227
22:35 Nov-06-2016
Re: UT in accordance with AWS D1.1
In Reply to Jorge Perdigon at 21:05 Nov-06-2016 .

Why would you require 3 legs with a 70 degree? On a 4 inch butt weld (I'm assuming this is the joint configuration), you need a 70 for the middle half only, and only the top quarter of its ground flush. The middle half would require less than 2, at most.

 
 Reply 
 
Jorge Perdigon
NDT Inspector, Teacher at Universidad Central de Venezuela - Factultad de Ingenieria
IEMAT, ca, Venezuela, Joined Jul 2009, 10

Jorge Perdigon

NDT Inspector, Teacher at Universidad Central de Venezuela - Factultad de Ingenieria
IEMAT, ca,
Venezuela,
Joined Jul 2009
10
01:13 Nov-07-2016
Re: UT in accordance with AWS D1.1
In Reply to Paul Holloway at 22:35 Nov-06-2016 .

Paul

Thank you for your comments

Because I want to verify 4 inches to 4 inches in T-joints and have only access to side B (AWS D1.1-2015. T-JOINT page 214)

Jorge Perdigon

 
 Reply 
 
Paul Holloway
Consultant,
Holloway NDT & Engineering Inc , Canada, Joined Apr 2010, 227

Paul Holloway

Consultant,
Holloway NDT & Engineering Inc ,
Canada,
Joined Apr 2010
227
02:03 Nov-07-2016
Re: UT in accordance with AWS D1.1
In Reply to Jorge Perdigon at 01:13 Nov-07-2016 .

zoom image



Wow, a 100mm thick T-joint. You don't mess around do you? :)

OK, so you'd be using procedure 7 which is a 60 deg for the top and bottom quarter and a 70 degree for the middle. You still don't need to go into the 3rd leg though. With a 70 degree you'll need maximum 1.75 legs which is 510 mm sound path (1 leg to get to the bottom, and 3/4 of a leg to get back up to the top quarter... after that you have to use the 60 deg on the full skip which is around 400 mm sound path). Clearly this is beyond the limits in the table which maxes out at 380 mm and 45 dB (see attached image). I'd get with your Level 3 and see what he/she says.

Working around the fixed attenuation factor and scanning gains is very awkward at times, I know. It's in dire need of repair or replacement.
 
 Reply 
 
Jorge Perdigon
NDT Inspector, Teacher at Universidad Central de Venezuela - Factultad de Ingenieria
IEMAT, ca, Venezuela, Joined Jul 2009, 10

Jorge Perdigon

NDT Inspector, Teacher at Universidad Central de Venezuela - Factultad de Ingenieria
IEMAT, ca,
Venezuela,
Joined Jul 2009
10
08:13 Nov-07-2016
Re: UT in accordance with AWS D1.1
In Reply to Paul Holloway at 02:03 Nov-07-2016 .

Paul

Thank you for your comments and I will try to testing in the next few hours.

Jorge Perdigón

 
 Reply 
 
Anandh Perumal
India, Joined Jan 2015, 19

Anandh Perumal

India,
Joined Jan 2015
19
10:23 Nov-07-2016
Re: UT in accordance with AWS D1.1
In Reply to Jorge Perdigon at 08:13 Nov-07-2016 .

Mr Paul,This is regarding the scanning levels given in your post.during calibration we are catching the 1.59mm hole of v1 block and increasing the gain to 80% of FSH to fix value "b".then if we increase the gain (20,25 etc based on beam path t/cos(angle)further as mentioned in the table the top of the echo will move over the screen height(FSH).my doubt is if we scan in this condition, if there is drop in echo how it will be visible?this doubt i had while witnessing a butt joint in 40 mm thick as per AWS D1.1 pls clear

 
 Reply 
 
Paul Holloway
Consultant,
Holloway NDT & Engineering Inc , Canada, Joined Apr 2010, 227

Paul Holloway

Consultant,
Holloway NDT & Engineering Inc ,
Canada,
Joined Apr 2010
227
14:10 Nov-07-2016
Re: UT in accordance with AWS D1.1
In Reply to Anandh Perumal at 10:23 Nov-07-2016 .

Anandh,

Couple problems:

1) AWS D1.1 Clause 6.24.5.2 specifies the zero reference level to be set from 40% to 60% FSH, not 80% as you stated.

2) Your question about scanning gain is concerning, and leads me to believe you have not had appropriate training. AWS D1.1 uses a fixed scanning gain instead of a TCG. The idea of scanning gain is simply to help you see things that otherwise would have slipped by as minor signals while scanning. Unlike a TCG, it applies one massive amount of gain across the entire distance being examined. The drawback of this archaic approach is that it will grossly over-amplify signals at shorter sound path distances, as you stated. But evaluation is always performed at reference level, meaning you have to manually remove *all* the scanning gain in order to size anything.

 
 Reply 
 
Anandh Perumal
India, Joined Jan 2015, 19

Anandh Perumal

India,
Joined Jan 2015
19
07:52 Nov-08-2016
Re: UT in accordance with AWS D1.1
In Reply to Paul Holloway at 14:10 Nov-07-2016 .

Mr Paul,Thanks for your reply.agreed as per code 40%to 60% of FSH.kindly check the procedure i used to follow and correct me if i am wrong.
1)In V1 block maximize the echo from 1.59 hole.then increase the gain upto 80% of FSH and increase another 6dB before proceeding for scanning in job.this is "b"
2)While scanning suppose i get echo from defect at skip distance of 51mm and echo height of 20%FSH. locate the probe in that position increase the dB upto 80% FSH.reduce the dB at the place by 6dB and the resultant dB is "a"
3)then attenuation (51/25.4-1)2 is "c"
calculate d=a-b-c and compare our d value from table 6.2 or 6.3 for static or dynamic as per our structure and accept/rework
As per you & code 40% -60% of FSH and instead of 6dB, add as dB as per scanning levels in table and reduce the same and calculate "a" and proceed.please correct if i am wrong

 
 Reply 
 
Paul Holloway
Consultant,
Holloway NDT & Engineering Inc , Canada, Joined Apr 2010, 227

Paul Holloway

Consultant,
Holloway NDT & Engineering Inc ,
Canada,
Joined Apr 2010
227
14:12 Nov-08-2016
Re: UT in accordance with AWS D1.1
In Reply to Anandh Perumal at 07:52 Nov-08-2016 .

Anandh,

Pretty much everything you stated is wrong. What you need is not a little assistance on a web forum, but rather some serious self study and mentoring.

 
 Reply 
 

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