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Career Discussions
Rafid O. López Tinajero
, NDT Level 3
Mexico, Joined Jan 2010, 81

Rafid O. López Tinajero

, NDT Level 3
Mexico,
Joined Jan 2010
81
00:28 Jun-08-2011
NAS 410

I see many misapplication with respect to NAS 410. Many ACCP-ASNT Level III call themselves NAS 410 Level III.

Why, we have a Standard, but we don´t have a NANDTB in America? or if we have it?

I know many NAS410 level III, but... really they are not NAS 410. Them are ACCP, ASNT or only NDT Level III, but are not NAS 410 Level 3.

I´m ASNT NDT Level III, but i don´t want to go at Europe to get the NAS 410/EN 4179 Level III

Could someone explain how it got its NAS410 certification in US or Mexico or South America?

I see than in Europe all NDT qualifications and certifications are with the correct application.

Why here in America is not the same as over there?

Rafid

 
 Reply 
 
R. Olson
R & D, Aviation
The Best Aviation Company In The World, USA, Joined Feb 2005, 23

R. Olson

R & D, Aviation
The Best Aviation Company In The World,
USA,
Joined Feb 2005
23
07:10 Jun-13-2011
Re: NAS 410
In Reply to Rafid O. López Tinajero at 00:28 Jun-08-2011 (Opening).

National Aerospace Standard (NAS) 410 document has its roots in Military Standard 410 (Mil-Std-410) document. Matter of fact, it's almost an exact same copy of it; the document changed custodians from military to civilian. Year? Not sure. It's primarily used by the aerospace industry.

So yes, there probably is, unfortunately, some ASNT Level 3 claiming to be NAS 410 Level 3's.

ASNT Level 3's are very broad and are not meant for just one industry. NAS 410 Level 3's are for aerospace.

Hope that helps.

 
 Reply 
 
Amy
NDT Inspector, - -
USA, Joined Jan 2009, 87

Amy

NDT Inspector, - -
USA,
Joined Jan 2009
87
15:06 Jun-14-2011
Re: NAS 410
In Reply to R. Olson at 07:10 Jun-13-2011 .

Rafid,

NAS 410 is a Standard for Certification of Personnel. NANDBT does not exisit in the United States to meet the centralized certification requirements for NAS 410, so here it is typically used as an employer certification such as SNT-TC-1A is.

Paragraph 7.1.2 does allow the use of the ASNT Certificate for the General. The ACCP Certification has addressed the deficiencies between the codes for Level III certification, such as a procedure preperation exam and hands on testing as NAS 410 requires for acceptance of parts. It is up to the employer to determine if the canidate is qualified to be certified to NAS 410 through their written practice. The Responsible Level III is to determine if ASNT meets the requirements for an outside agency to certify their personnel to this standard. Most Responsible Level III's I know require additional site specific testing.

The comparison of requirements from ACCP Level III and NAS 410 are almost identical, so if accepted by the employer and their written practice, the individual can be considered qualified to NAS 410 and then Certified by the employer. I am qualified by ASNT and certified to NAS 410 by my employer. Since I am the Responsible Level III, I cannot be tested by a subbordinate and an outside agency is utilized (ASNT).

I have found the biggest problem with ASNT or SNT-TC-1A Level 2 personnel since the training hour requirements are much less (12 PT and 24 MT? I believe, for SNT-TC-1A) than the 32 hours for each method required for NAS 410. This responsibility, again falls with the employer to ensure the individual is qualified to be certified to the NAS 410 standard.

 
 Reply 
 
Rafid O. Lopez
, NDT Level 3
Mexico, Joined Jan 2010, 81

Rafid O. Lopez

, NDT Level 3
Mexico,
Joined Jan 2010
81
00:18 Jun-15-2011
Re: NAS 410
In Reply to Amy at 15:06 Jun-14-2011 .

Thanks Amy.

I think than this is the first mistake; ASNT must not be used to qualify NAS 410 personnel because is not an specialized aerospace agency. Who must determine if a candidate is qualified, must be other NAS 410 Level 3 (may be from an outside agency).

The origin from the first NAS 410 Level 3, must be from an EN 4179 Level 3 (equivalent to NAS 410). Then the first NAS 410 can qualify to other NAS 410 level´s III and so on.

It´s like use AWS to inspect pressure vessel (ASME) are totally different sectors, is the same with ASNT and NAS 410.

Although, If customer accept this certification process, then the process it´s ok. The customer has the last word.

Regards

 
 Reply 
 
R. Olson
R & D, Aviation
The Best Aviation Company In The World, USA, Joined Feb 2005, 23

R. Olson

R & D, Aviation
The Best Aviation Company In The World,
USA,
Joined Feb 2005
23
20:44 Jun-15-2011
Re: NAS 410
In Reply to Rafid O. Lopez at 00:18 Jun-15-2011 .

No, the origin of NAS 410 is from Mil-Std 410, Mr. Tinajero.

 
 Reply 
 
Jeff
R & D, Ultrasonic Phased Array, Physical Science, NAS-410 LIII
NASA, USA, Joined Dec 1999, 37

Jeff

R & D, Ultrasonic Phased Array, Physical Science, NAS-410 LIII
NASA,
USA,
Joined Dec 1999
37
21:49 Jun-16-2011
Re: NAS 410
In Reply to Rafid O. López Tinajero at 00:28 Jun-08-2011 (Opening).

Amy is right ... I am NAS-410 Level III and most Government work requires that particular qualification document. NAS-410 & SNT-TC-1A are both employer based qualification documents ... they are not certification documents - certification can only be granted by the employer and is non-transferable, though some of the experience qualifications are transferable (to other employers, for example).

There are differences in the documents, like Amy mentioned -- from the number of hours required for qualification of an individual seeking certification to the number of questions in some sections of the examinations to hands-on proficiency demonstrations to even how much it costs. NAS-410 does give a person seeking certification in accordance with NAS-410 credit for the General examination questions for individuals who currently hold SNT-TC-1A or other certification (which is from their previous employer perhaps). Aside from that, the rest of NAS-410 must be met.

Some training institutions are now adding caveats to their websites and documents: "NAS-410 courses meet and exceed SNT-TC-1A requirements. SNT-TC-1A courses do not meet latest NAS-410 requirements." In one example a PT refresher course administered by a company in accordance with SNT-TC-1A costs $700 ... a PT refresher course offered by the same company in accordance with NAS-410 costs $1,250 ... almost twice as much.

An individual takes a "qualification" exam in accordance with the requirements of either NAS-410 or SNT-TC-1A, for example, and if they pass, then they may be "certified" by their current employer. In the above two most common documents, 'certified by Hellier', or 'certified by ASNT', or 'certified by Atlantic NDT' is a misnomer ... they simply went to an outside agency to document their qualification level. These companies do not certify anyone - the employer does (think of the liability). I also believe that these courses are called "refresher courses" for a reason: a person looking to be a Level II at XYZ company but has never been certified by any employer as a Level I, must take a TWO week session ... you cannot go directly to Level II without prior certification as a Level I - same for Level III. A "refresher" to me means that someone who is looking for a job in UT already has the requisite hours listed in the tables and has a working knowledge of method in which they are taking the qualification exams. Some people treat the refresher courses as instructional courses for beginners. Imagine a smart new hire taking an RT Level II course in a single week (40 hours) but never was a Level I anything, and passes the grade --- now that person is a RT Level II?? I wouldn't want to give him the key - that is dangerous! He would need the hours from the tables before ever going to the refresher. Sadly, I don't think it is commonly looked at in that light these days. No doubt, one document is more widely viewed as 'credible' than the other (outside of the Government), but that is sad, and they are not the same.

Rafid is right, "ASNT must not be used to qualify NAS-410 personnel ..." because they are not equivalent documents. NAS-410 gives credit in one area if the individual is currently certified by an employer but that's it. I've taken 'a level II RT course' before myself, but I wouldn't have more than 2 hours from the table of requirements and it was a one week course, so that in NO way made me a legit Level II RT inspector ... that happens far to many times, I'm afraid. It is deadly serious that the documents be followed - when engines start falling off of the aircraft ...

Amy summed it up nicely.

 
 Reply 
 
Atif Bari
Engineering
MRF, Pakistan, Joined Jan 2009, 14

Atif Bari

Engineering
MRF,
Pakistan,
Joined Jan 2009
14
22:07 Jun-18-2011
Re: NAS 410
In Reply to Rafid O. López Tinajero at 00:28 Jun-08-2011 (Opening).

I am ASNT NDT Level III and also NAS 410 Level III. I have worked for an organization as Responsible Level 3, who was working for Boeing and facility is accredited by NADCAP as well. I took ASNT NDT Level 3 exams which are accepted by NAS 410 as General exam for Level 3 and took Specific and Practical examination form Being approved testing center who had valid NAS 410 Level 3 examiner. I also took ACCP exams too and passed those examinations too but those practical examinations are not accepted by NAS 410 as parts should be similar to the works which are to be performed by the candidate and so does the specific exam which has to be done company's procedure. As essence of exam is to check that candidate can perform satisfactorily in his work environment thats why these certifications are issued by the organizations it self.

 
 Reply 
 
Norm Woodward
Norm Woodward
20:16 Jun-22-2011
Re: NAS 410
In Reply to Rafid O. López Tinajero at 00:28 Jun-08-2011 (Opening).

When I first qualified as a MIL STD 410 Level III over twenty years ago, I had to be trained up through the levels by OJT and commercial courses until I had enough experience to take the ASNT Level III courses. I took that month long training, and then the exams several months later (as was their requirement back then) and passed five methods and the basic. That got me most of the way there, but I was not really certifiable as a 410 level III until a contractor came in and administered specific and practical tests for each method. Recertification was rather nebulous, but fortunately, when NAS 410 came into effect, a point system was developed so that one did not have to take all those tests again, nor depend on the opinion of a supervisor who may not be technically qualified to judge your work.

Just to clarify one important point, though aerospace companies run this standard, they do not claim that all NAS 410 Level IIIs are equal; My experience has always been with airframes. When I applied for consulting work at an investment castings company that made engine components, I had to provide a very detailed resume to convince their customers, and NADCAP, that my NAS 410 was sufficient for their needs.

As to certification, as mentioned, that is done by your employer. As for QUALIFICATION training and testing, I know of one individual who used to be with the Air Force NDI Program Office, and now does this full time.

i do not want this to make this into an advertisement, but if anyone is interested in contact information, please email me for details.

 
 Reply 
 
art stone
USA, Joined May 2012, 2

art stone

USA,
Joined May 2012
2
17:44 May-26-2012
Re: NAS 410
In Reply to Jeff at 21:49 Jun-16-2011 .

Jeff, I am a certified level ii in RT and PT per NAS-410 but was never certified as a level 1, at GE aircraft engines. It is possible to do you must still do the same hours as anyone else to complete the training.

 
 Reply 
 
Jeff Leak
R & D, Ultrasonic Phased Array, Physical Science, NAS-410 LIII
NASA, USA, Joined Dec 1999, 37

Jeff Leak

R & D, Ultrasonic Phased Array, Physical Science, NAS-410 LIII
NASA,
USA,
Joined Dec 1999
37
17:36 May-29-2012
Re: NAS 410
In Reply to art stone at 17:44 May-26-2012 .

Art -

You are right, it is possible to take Qualification exams at a Level II without having taken the Qualification exams for a Level I ... that is usually how I see things done but, in most cases I've seen, they don't usually do it 'by the book'.

Per NAS-410, a Level II canidate must be able to: set up and calibrate various instruments, perform an inspection using a proper technique, interpret the results from the instruments using acceptance and rejection critera that has been provided, and be capable of training Level I personnel, just to name a few important attributes of a Level II. I find it most difficult for a potential Level II canidate who has practically zero OJT in the method, to be capable of calibrating an instrument, properly using it, not to mention being able to train someone else.

Many times I see people going to a REFRESHER course thinking that they will come out of that CERTIFIED as a Level II. As if in a 40 hour week someone could go from zero experience all the way to a Level II in RT, for example. Notice that I said 40 hours - that's what I usually see scheduled and even then, the Friday of that week might be used for a final QUALIFICATION exam and not even be a full day. In that case, the canidates did not even get a full 40 hours. The are *supposed* to already have OJT in the methods before going to a refresher course.

That being said, to address a person who takes a refesher course for Level II RT & PT, NAS-410 states that the person should "... complete formal training to become proficient with the prinicples and practices of the applicable method and techniques(s) ..." and this formal training should be separate from a refresher course, and be "... conducted prior to, or in conjunction with, on-the-job training." Table I (Minimum Formal Training Hours) of NAS-410 has 32 hours for PT & 80 hours for RT if a person seeks CERTIFICATION at a Level II without having ever been previously CERTIFIED as a Level I. That would mean a documented two-weeks of formal training for the RT canidate in addition to the OJT - typically offered by the employer. The hours listed in Table I, as I have described here, are the summed value for Level I AND Level II hours.

A person *should* have sufficient OJT AND formal training PRIOR to going to a refresher course - not the other way around as I see in most cases. People go to referesher courses and do not know how to calibrate or anything ... thinking that they will learn it all in three or four days ... they would be far better off if they did the OJT from the employer before going to the referesher course (which is simply an option to prepare for the exams).

* Pick a Method
* Get some OJT from a Level II with the employer
* Take an NDT course, possibally from the employer if outlined in their Certification Document
* Schedule to take Qualification exams (can shedule a Refresher course if needed)
* If passed the Qualification requirements then seek Certification from employer

A person could indeed, as you pointed out, go to a Level II without having ever been a Level I ... IF they meet the required hours of Tables I & II -- a person cannot, however, go directly to a Level III without having already been CERTIFIED by an employer as a Level II performing Level II duties.

To go directly to a Level II PT:
* Need OJT by employer of 400 hours per Table II
* Need some type of formal training in NDT
* Need to take the Qualification exams (if refresher is needed, then it is 32 hours)
* Need to seek Certification from employer

To go directly to a Level II RT:
* Need OJT by employer of 1,600 hours per Table II (Minimum Experience Requirements)
* Need some type of formal training in NDT
* Need to take the Qualification exams (if refresher is needed, then it is 80 hours)
* Need to seek Certification from employer

Just to note: 1,600 hours of the Minimum Experience Requirements of Table II for RT, based upon an 8 hour day but using 6 hours per day in the Method, would coume out to about 267 days, or about 9 months of OJT ... for PT, 400 hours would be about 67 days which is about 2 months of OJT.

I just put all of this in here in case other people are reading over the thread ... hope it was helpful information. If I were hired to consult, that's how I would structure a plan ...

Jeff

 
 Reply 
 
art stone
USA, Joined May 2012, 2

art stone

USA,
Joined May 2012
2
16:31 May-30-2012
Re: NAS 410
In Reply to Jeff Leak at 17:36 May-29-2012 .

Your absolutely right Jeff and that's how I did it. I had to set next to another level 11 for almost a year. Either inspecting parts while he watched over my shoulder or loading for them while watching what they were doing. That's the req. 1600 hrs otj training. The reason my company refuses level 1s is I would have to be put on the overtime list, which my union president didn't want, and we don't normally have an onsite level3. They have to come from another state. Fortunately I had a guy most knowledgable and easy to get along with. Everybody is not that lucky.

 
 Reply 
 
ayman
ayman
16:42 Dec-10-2012
Re: NAS 410
In Reply to art stone at 16:31 May-30-2012 .

jeff
from dec 2009 i start ndt ojt i complete almost 350 hr in pt , 505 hr in mt , 890 rt,275 ut,1116 in et then i get formal training for the minmume req as in table 1 for level II
how can i get the asnt nas 410 level II ?
is it from the employer
or i can get from the asnt it self
and if so what s documentation they want

 
 Reply 
 
Jeff Leak
R & D, Ultrasonic Phased Array, Physical Science, NAS-410 LIII
NASA, USA, Joined Dec 1999, 37

Jeff Leak

R & D, Ultrasonic Phased Array, Physical Science, NAS-410 LIII
NASA,
USA,
Joined Dec 1999
37
17:52 Dec-11-2012
Re: NAS 410
In Reply to ayman at 16:42 Dec-10-2012 .

Ayman -

Glad to hear you are putting yout time into OJT! I am going to assume the worse case and say that your employer has never officially "certified" you as a Level I in anything. In that case you have to meet column three in Table II of NAS-410.

You have 350hrs PT, which is enough for PT Level II, but 50hrs short of Level II; you have 890hrs of RT, which is 710 short of Level II; 275hrs UT, which is 1,325 short of Level II; 1,116hrs in ET, which is 484 short of Level II.

You need to take a written examination for Level I, either given by your employer by following the guidelines outlined within NAS-410, or by an outside third-party entity - then you need your employer to "certifiy" you, hopefully in writing, that you have passed the written Level I examinations and have met the qualification for Level I. I suggest that someone from your employer sit down with a copy of NAS-410, save the money, and come up with the written questions for this Level I test. If that is too hard to do, then you just have to keep going on the OJT for the target of "Level II WITHOUT prior Level I Certification".

You are WAY more than a Level I ... take the test and get the employer to "certifiy" you as soon as you can. Now with that, you could take the test of questions (either given by your employer or by a hired third party as outlined in NAS 410) and right now you could be:

* Level II PT
* Level I RT (need 310hrs for Level II)
* Level I UT (need 925hrs for Level II)
* Level I ET (need 84hrs for Level II)

Getting a written testimony of "cetification" not only testifies that you QUALIFY for Level I by having put in the hours of OJT but it testifies that your company has officially CERTIFIED you as a Level I. It also makes getting a Level II quite a bit easier by lower then number of required hours needed to 'qualifiy' to take the tests.

Your employer should have a WRITTEN PROCEDURE on how they plan to certify their employees. Using NAS-410, there is a quidline as to how many questions per section needs to be given and it should be tailored to your industry/operations. You might call the person who oversees this 'certification' as a "Certifying Officer" for the company. You are doing the "Qualification" part with OJT and by passing a written examination. They could hire out this Level III function of a Certification Officer by sending you to Hellier, Atlantic NDT, or some other such group - but it will cost them money.

ASNT SNT-TC-1A and NAS-410 are BOTH EMPLYORER BASED CERTIFICATION programs. See if you can approach your management with this idea of trying an "in-house" Certification Program based upon NAS-410 requirements.

You're doing a great job at keeping up with your OJT hours so all of that is documented ... get an eye exam, a few other little things, and next thing you know your company has a Program going! They just need to write a Procedure based around NAS-410 telling who is going to do what and who is responsible, etc ...

Great job, my friend ... I hope this helps you! Let me know if I can help clarify anything further ...

 
 Reply 
 
Rafid O. López
, NDT Level 3
Mexico, Joined Jan 2010, 81

Rafid O. López

, NDT Level 3
Mexico,
Joined Jan 2010
81
16:23 Dec-13-2012
Re: NAS 410
In Reply to Jeff Leak at 17:52 Dec-11-2012 .

In accordance with NAS 410 standard it is permitted be a NDT Level 3 without prior certification to level 2, provided that performance/experience of the candidate is equivalent to a Level 2.

6. TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE: Individuals cannot certify to Level 3 without prior certification to Level 2 or performance equivalent to a Level 2.

For example, Engineers that perform the following:

• be thoroughly familiar with the scope and limitations of the technique/method.
• have the skills and knowledge to conduct system performance checks in accordance with the applicable process standard.
• be familiar with the codes, standards, and other contractual documents that control the method as used by the employer.
• when specified in the written practice, be capable of developing work instructions from approved general procedures. Such work instructions shall require final approval by a Level 3 certified in the method.
• have a basic knowledge of relevant product manufacturing and inspection technology.
• when specified in the written practice, have a basic knowledge of aircraft or vehicle maintenance.

I see that many inspectors has skills to inspect parts (processing and evaluating) ONLY!. But them sometimes cannot prepare or develop procedures or work instructions, interpret new specifications or codes, do new implementations in line, or simply cannot answer questions from auditors, etc.

It’s important to mention that between NDT Level 2 and NDT level 3 there is an important person that is the NDT Engineer and this person is not certified as NDT Level 2, but his activities are equivalent to an NDT Level 2 and probably will be the next NDT Level 3 Engineer.

Regards

 
 Reply 
 
Jeff Leak
R & D, Ultrasonic Phased Array, Physical Science, NAS-410 LIII
NASA, USA, Joined Dec 1999, 37

Jeff Leak

R & D, Ultrasonic Phased Array, Physical Science, NAS-410 LIII
NASA,
USA,
Joined Dec 1999
37
17:32 Dec-13-2012
Re: NAS 410
In Reply to Rafid O. López at 16:23 Dec-13-2012 .

Quote: "In accordance with NAS 410 standard it is permitted be a NDT Level 3 without prior certification to level 2, provided that performance/experience of the candidate is equivalent to a Level 2.

6. TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE: Individuals cannot certify to Level 3 without prior certification to Level 2 or performance equivalent to a Level 2.

For example, Engineers that perform the following:

• be thoroughly familiar with the scope and limitations of the technique/method.
• have the skills and knowledge to conduct system performance checks in accordance with the applicable process standard.
• be familiar with the codes, standards, and other contractual documents that control the method as used by the employer.
• when specified in the written practice, be capable of developing work instructions from approved general procedures. Such work instructions shall require final approval by a Level 3 certified in the method.
• have a basic knowledge of relevant product manufacturing and inspection technology.
• when specified in the written practice, have a basic knowledge of aircraft or vehicle maintenance.

I see that many inspectors has skills to inspect parts (processing and evaluating) ONLY!. But them sometimes cannot prepare or develop procedures or work instructions, interpret new specifications or codes, do new implementations in line, or simply cannot answer questions from auditors, etc.

It’s important to mention that between NDT Level 2 and NDT level 3 there is an important person that is the NDT Engineer and this person is not certified as NDT Level 2, but his activities are equivalent to an NDT Level 2 and probably will be the next NDT Level 3 Engineer. "

If they can meet Tables II and III then more power to them. I see engineers who cannot put together a decent PowerPoint presentation. I definately see engineers who do not have the skills and knowledge to conduct system performance checks or know how to calibrate anything - wanting to just straight to a Level III. I am a Level III who can do all of that of a Level II and can put together some killer Presentations to the Project Offices. Like I said, if they meet the criteria of Tables I & II, more power to them.



 
 Reply 
 
Dale Cheek
USA, Joined Jan 2017, 1

Dale Cheek

USA,
Joined Jan 2017
1
21:53 Jan-24-2017
Re: NAS 410
In Reply to Rafid O. López Tinajero at 00:28 Jun-08-2011 (Opening).

I'm an ASNT Level III, can I certify someone for NAS-410 without ever holding the cert as long as I follow the written practice guidelines of that company. I cannot obtain a free copy of NAS-410 to review the Level III requirements.

 
 Reply 
 
John Brunk
Engineering, NDT Level III
Self employed, part-time, USA, Joined Oct 1999, 161

John Brunk

Engineering, NDT Level III
Self employed, part-time,
USA,
Joined Oct 1999
161
00:16 Jan-25-2017
Re: NAS 410
In Reply to Dale Cheek at 21:53 Jan-24-2017 .

Dale, you cannot certify personnel to NAS 410 unless you are certified as a Level3 per NAS 410 in the methods and particular techniques to be used by those individuals. I have been an ASNT Level III for years and had to be certified by a person who was already a Level3 per NAS 410 in the methods and techniques my client and I needed. My ASNT qualification meant I had to take only specific method exams. You need your own copy of NAS 410 to sort all this out, but why doesn't your prospective client have one you could use. Do they know what they are getting into with NAS 410? If your duties as an outside responsible Level3 would include working with them through NADCAP certification and audits, there are much more enjoyable and straightforward ways to earn consulting fees.

 
 Reply 
 

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