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JIM
NDT Inspector,
cooec, China, Joined Oct 2010, 15

JIM

NDT Inspector,
cooec,
China,
Joined Oct 2010
15
03:36 Aug-16-2019
ASME density of variation, where should we choose when used wire IQI?

Hi experts
i just a little confusing about ASME V article 2 T282.2(a).
(a)The density of the radiograph anywhere through the area of interest shall not (1) vary by more than minus 15% or plus 30% from the density through the body of the designated hole-type IQI adjacent to the essential hole or adjacent to the essential wire of a wire-type IQI.
i have just used wire tpye IQI.
where should we choose the base measurement on the film?
i just look it up on the ASME.org interpretation website something like that.
the Record Number: 14-2265
Question: For wire type IQIs, may the minus 15% or plus 30% density limitations specified in T-282.2(a)(1) be met by determining the density adjacent to the essential wire anywhere along the length of the wire (i.e., weld metal or base metal)?
Reply: Yes

if that means like that:
first, we need to measure the density adjace to the essential wire through interest area(the weld and HAZ),
then we will get the lightest area Dmin(on the weld) and darkest area Dmax(on the HAZ) , the Dmin and Dmax should allowable density range specified in T-282.1.
the whole interest area of the weld density D should more than Dmin*0.8, less than Dmax*1.3,

or just measure the density adjace to the essential wire any where? the density is D, then the whole interest area density is between 0.8 D and 1.3 D.

can any experts give me more information about it? where should we choose when used wire IQI?

it's very urgent, the client told me i have to reshoot all the films because of the density varitation is not acceptable, but we have different opinion.


 
 Reply 
 
jim
NDT Inspector,
cooec, China, Joined Oct 2010, 15

jim

NDT Inspector,
cooec,
China,
Joined Oct 2010
15
04:25 Aug-17-2019
Re: ASME density of variation, where should we choose when used wire IQI?
In Reply to JIM at 03:36 Aug-16-2019 (Opening).

no one reply to me

 
 Reply 
 
Anmol Birring
Consultant,
Birring NDE Center, Inc., USA, Joined Aug 2011, 755

Anmol Birring

Consultant,
Birring NDE Center, Inc.,
USA,
Joined Aug 2011
755
20:34 Aug-17-2019
Re: ASME density of variation, where should we choose when used wire IQI?
In Reply to JIM at 03:36 Aug-16-2019 (Opening).

Just measure the density adjace to the essential wire any where? the density is D, then the whole interest area density is between 0.85 D and 1.3 D.

 
 Reply 
 
JIM
NDT Inspector,
cooec, China, Joined Oct 2010, 15

JIM

NDT Inspector,
cooec,
China,
Joined Oct 2010
15
01:33 Aug-18-2019
Re: ASME density of variation, where should we choose when used wire IQI?
In Reply to Anmol Birring at 20:34 Aug-17-2019 .

tky Anmol
but actually, how it could be can perform in this situation?
the client state the interest area included the weld and 12mm HAZ, we have just shoot a tubing weld size of 2" 7.02mm, 600mm SFD ,Kodak MX125(class D4 follw the ISO19232 ) film, double wall double image (superimposed), submarine tubing project of Onesubsea .
but the HAZ darkest area's density is 3.49, the weld lightest area's density is 2.3
if the density adjace to the essential wire is 2.7, then the density varitation is OK.
but if the density adjace to the essential wire is 2.9 , the density varitation will be not acceptable.
as we know
the density adjace to the essential wire have a range,so the density variation OK OR not OK all depends the point where we choose.

am i right?
so that's make no sense.
I have also conducted a project before, a AI(authorize inspector) perform like that
he just meausre one area at HAZ get a Dh, the HAZ area density variation is 0.8Dh~1.3Dh
then mesaure another area area ath weld get a Dw, the weld area density variation is 0.8 Dw~1.3Dh
does he do right?
so that's confusing me a lot.

 
 Reply 
 
Creed
NDT Inspector,
n.n., Joined Jul 2009, 31

Creed

NDT Inspector,
n.n.,
Joined Jul 2009
31
07:30 Aug-19-2019
Re: ASME density of variation, where should we choose when used wire IQI?
In Reply to JIM at 01:33 Aug-18-2019 .

Hi,
If you measure the density of the HAZ then you should compare with the density at the wire on the HAZ not on the weld, that would make more sense.

 
 Reply 
 
jim
NDT Inspector,
cooec, China, Joined Oct 2010, 15

jim

NDT Inspector,
cooec,
China,
Joined Oct 2010
15
10:15 Aug-19-2019
Re: ASME density of variation, where should we choose when used wire IQI?
In Reply to Creed at 07:30 Aug-19-2019 .

it should be performed like that. but ASME V don't state it clear. even the ASME V committee' s interpretation. so everyone can has its own understanding. that's the point. can any one from ASME V committe expert give me a guidance or advice.

 
 Reply 
 
jim
NDT Inspector,
cooec, China, Joined Oct 2010, 15

jim

NDT Inspector,
cooec,
China,
Joined Oct 2010
15
10:48 Aug-19-2019
Re: ASME density of variation, where should we choose when used wire IQI?
In Reply to Creed at 07:30 Aug-19-2019 .

it should be performed like that. but ASME V don't state it clear. even the ASME V committee' s interpretation. so everyone can has its own understanding. that's the point. can any one from ASME V committe expert give me a guidance or advice.

 
 Reply 
 
Anmol Birring
Consultant,
Birring NDE Center, Inc., USA, Joined Aug 2011, 755

Anmol Birring

Consultant,
Birring NDE Center, Inc.,
USA,
Joined Aug 2011
755
05:00 Aug-22-2019
Re: ASME density of variation, where should we choose when used wire IQI?
In Reply to JIM at 01:33 Aug-18-2019 .

you can use two separate IQI on a single film and go from there

 
 Reply 
 
jim
NDT Inspector,
cooec, China, Joined Oct 2010, 15

jim

NDT Inspector,
cooec,
China,
Joined Oct 2010
15
14:01 Aug-22-2019
Re: ASME density of variation, where should we choose when used wire IQI?
In Reply to Anmol Birring at 05:00 Aug-22-2019 .

the size is just 2" , DWDI super imposed method.
so there is no place for another wire IQI. the point is the HAZ(12mm)i think it's too wide. so the whole interest area density always out of the variation.if we just measure the edge between the weld and base metal. that would Ok.

 
 Reply 
 
Shane Feder
, Quality Co-ordinator (SubSea)
Thailand, Joined Dec 2014, 89

Shane Feder

, Quality Co-ordinator (SubSea)
Thailand,
Joined Dec 2014
89
14:40 Aug-27-2019
Re: ASME density of variation, where should we choose when used wire IQI?
In Reply to jim at 14:01 Aug-22-2019 .

Anmol has given you the correct answer previously.
The ASME V interpretation to me is also pretty clear.
Make an initial reading adjacent to the relevant wire anywhere you want and then apply the - 15 / + 30 % to all of the area of interest.
Why are you so concerned about 12 mm HAZ required by the client ?
HAZ is base metal so the thickness is the same whether you are 1 mm from the weld or 12 mm from the weld.
If the thickness is the same your density should be the same ?

 
 Reply 
 
JIM
NDT Inspector,
cooec, China, Joined Oct 2010, 15

JIM

NDT Inspector,
cooec,
China,
Joined Oct 2010
15
16:02 Aug-27-2019
Re: ASME density of variation, where should we choose when used wire IQI?
In Reply to Shane Feder at 14:40 Aug-27-2019 .

the client stated the insterest area include the HAZ(12mm), the pipe base metal thickness is 7mm,the allowable weld external and internal reinforcement each is 2.4mm. at the allowable condition, the thickness of the weld 7+2.4*2=11.8mm, but the HAZ area is 7mm, we just use the DWDI superimposed method. the thick ness deviation between HAZ area and weld will be almost (11.8-7)*2=9.6mm. compared to the thickness of the pipe.the film density range wil be huge. it always out of the allowable range. so......

 
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Mario Talarico
NDT Inspector,
Italy, Joined May 2010, 417

Mario Talarico

NDT Inspector,
Italy,
Joined May 2010
417
11:53 Aug-28-2019
Re: ASME density of variation, where should we choose when used wire IQI?
In Reply to JIM at 16:02 Aug-27-2019 .

Jim,
it is common practice to place the smallest wire at the end of the insterest area (area with thicker crossing, at the end of the film). This makes sense because it tries to handle the worst case of wire detectability. In this case the difference between the central part and end of the film coincide with central part of the film and the adjacent essential wire zone. This is a valid way to keep under control the minimum number of films to be carried out in a circular welding.
If this is the purpose the comparison of homogeneous areas makes sense and the reason for a different behavior is not understood: then comparison of base material with base material and welded zone with welded zone, in my representation between the central part and the end of the film, where the smaller wire has been positioned.

 
 Reply 
 
jim
NDT Inspector,
cooec, China, Joined Oct 2010, 15

jim

NDT Inspector,
cooec,
China,
Joined Oct 2010
15
15:53 Aug-28-2019
Re: ASME density of variation, where should we choose when used wire IQI?
In Reply to Mario Talarico at 11:53 Aug-28-2019 .

tky,Mario.
actually,the client find it difficult to carried out in this case. (small pipe ,DWDI,superimposed). so they now just required us the density is 1.8-4.0 is ok.
the ASME v don't give a minimum number shoot on circle weld. not lik e ISO17636-1. so they may be just want to control the deviation of the density to handle the minimum number. that may be the reason.
but actually this is not practical for small pipe. in this case,we have take 3 shoots,X-ray,600mmSFD,210kV,the essential wire is clear,the density range1 8-4.0 is ok.i tkink the film is excellent,except the density deviation...
we also have shoot another pip size6",14.27mm.the source is Ir192. the density deviation is ok.
so tks all the experts who gives me the advices.

 
 Reply 
 
Mario Talarico
NDT Inspector,
Italy, Joined May 2010, 417

Mario Talarico

NDT Inspector,
Italy,
Joined May 2010
417
17:17 Aug-28-2019
Re: ASME density of variation, where should we choose when used wire IQI?
In Reply to jim at 15:53 Aug-28-2019 .

Jim,
I observe a lot of gap!
With the parameters indicated, the criteria for density variation ISO 17636-1 would require 6 shoots in class A and 9 shoots when working with class B (class B normally used in projects for pressure equipment).

 
 Reply 
 
jim
NDT Inspector,
cooec, China, Joined Oct 2010, 15

jim

NDT Inspector,
cooec,
China,
Joined Oct 2010
15
01:11 Aug-29-2019
Re: ASME density of variation, where should we choose when used wire IQI?
In Reply to Mario Talarico at 17:17 Aug-28-2019 .

Mario
3" 7.02mm 600mmSFD X-Ray machine 3shoots DWDI superimposed
6" 14.27mm ,SFD is the pipe diameter .gamma-Ray Ir192 6shoots DWSI
the parameter is OK.



 
 Reply 
 
Shane Feder
, Quality Co-ordinator (SubSea)
Thailand, Joined Dec 2014, 89

Shane Feder

, Quality Co-ordinator (SubSea)
Thailand,
Joined Dec 2014
89
12:05 Aug-29-2019
Re: ASME density of variation, where should we choose when used wire IQI?
In Reply to jim at 01:11 Aug-29-2019 .

Jim,
ASME V notes 3 shots minimum for superimposed.
On a recent subsea project I was on they shot 5 shots (and in some cases 7) on small bore piping.
As the clients rep, I was worried about additional costs but they were on butt rates so they may have been shooting more just so there were no issues like you are having.
As there are no location markers on small bore piping (other than A,B,C or 1,2,3) how are you calculating your actual area of interest ?
That will determine whether you are getting true density readings or distorted readings due to the changing wall thickness.
5 x shots instead of 3 x shots will give you a smaller area of interest and therefore less chance of misleading density readings.
Your first post stated 2" - 7.02 mm WT, now you are saying 3"- 7.02 mm ?????

 
 Reply 
 
jim
NDT Inspector,
cooec, China, Joined Oct 2010, 15

jim

NDT Inspector,
cooec,
China,
Joined Oct 2010
15
14:29 Aug-29-2019
Re: ASME density of variation, where should we choose when used wire IQI?
In Reply to Shane Feder at 12:05 Aug-29-2019 .

it's 2". i just write it wrong.
the client don't require more shoots.

 
 Reply 
 

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