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Technical Discussions
Phil Herman Jr.
Sales, - Manufacture of NDT Reference Standards/Test Blocks
PH Tool Reference Standards, USA, Joined Oct 1999, 79

Phil Herman Jr.

Sales, - Manufacture of NDT Reference Standards/Test Blocks
PH Tool Reference Standards,
USA,
Joined Oct 1999
79
00:09 Sep-08-1999
ASTM E 127 Par. 11

I am Phil Herman Jr. from PH Tool Reference Standards. We manufacture NDT Standards and Test Blocks. I am searching for a new or used X-cut quartz immersion transducer, 5 MHz, 3/8" effective diameter. I realize this is not current but I am trying to satisfy the requirements of Checking Ultrasonic Characteristics of 7075-T6 Aluminum ASTM Flat-bottom hole Blocks that PH Tool manufactures. E 127 seems to lock us (or the lab we'll use) into using this type of search unit. Am I interpreting the requirements of Par. 11 correctly? If so, does anyone know where I may find a used unit, or where I may have one made?


 
 Reply 
 
Tom Nelligan
Engineering,
retired, USA, Joined Nov 1998, 390

Tom Nelligan

Engineering,
retired,
USA,
Joined Nov 1998
390
05:44 Sep-08-1999
Re: ASTM E 127 Par. 11

: I am Phil Herman Jr. from PH Tool Reference Standards. We manufacture NDT Standards and Test Blocks. I am searching for a new or used X-cut quartz immersion transducer, 5 MHz, 3/8" effective diameter. I realize this is not current but I am trying to satisfy the requirements of Checking Ultrasonic Characteristics of 7075-T6 Aluminum ASTM Flat-bottom hole Blocks that PH Tool manufactures. E 127 seems to lock us (or the lab we'll use) into using this type of search unit. Am I interpreting the requirements of Par. 11 correctly? If so, does anyone know where I may find a used unit, or where I may have one made?

Just one opinion here, but I'd be inclined to take exception to the word "quartz" and concentrate on the diameter, frequency, and functional specifications described in 11.3.5 and subsequent paragraphs. I notice that E 127 was first adopted in 1958, when quartz transducers were still in common use in NDT. Since then, the industry has shifted to piezoceramics, piezopolymers, and now composites due to their vastly superior performance in NDT transducers, and quartz has been out of general use for a very long time. I'm wondering if that "quartz" reference is simply an anachronism that has somehow escaped revision over the years. Maybe someone in this group has been involved in writing or revising E 127 and can comment further on the history of that procedure.

In any case, there are commonly available commercial 5 MHz 0.375" diameter piezoceramic immersion transducers that will meet the all of the functional requirements of the test outlined in E 127.

--Tom Nelligan


 
 Reply 
 
Udo Schlengermann
Consultant, -
Standards Consulting, Germany, Joined Nov 1998, 179

Udo Schlengermann

Consultant, -
Standards Consulting,
Germany,
Joined Nov 1998
179
05:28 Sep-13-1999
Re: ASTM E 127 Par. 11

:
: : I am Phil Herman Jr. from PH Tool Reference Standards. We manufacture NDT Standards and Test Blocks. I am searching for a new or used X-cut quartz immersion transducer, 5 MHz, 3/8" effective diameter. I realize this is not current but I am trying to satisfy the requirements of Checking Ultrasonic Characteristics of 7075-T6 Aluminum ASTM Flat-bottom hole Blocks that PH Tool manufactures. E 127 seems to lock us (or the lab we'll use) into using this type of search unit. Am I interpreting the requirements of Par. 11 correctly? If so, does anyone know where I may find a used unit, or where I may have one made?

: Just one opinion here, but I'd be inclined to take exception to the word "quartz" and concentrate on the diameter, frequency, and functional specifications described in 11.3.5 and subsequent paragraphs. I notice that E 127 was first adopted in 1958, when quartz transducers were still in common use in NDT. Since then, the industry has shifted to piezoceramics, piezopolymers, and nowcomposites due to their vastly superior performance in NDT transducers, and quartz has been out of general use for a very long time. I'm wondering if that "quartz" reference is simply an anachronism that has somehow escaped revision over the years. Maybe someone in this group has been involved in writing or revising E 127 and can comment further on the history of that procedure.

: In any case, there are commonly available commercial 5 MHz 0.375" diameter piezoceramic immersion transducers that will meet the all of the functional requirements of the test outlined in E 127.

: --Tom Nelligan

reply by Udo Schlengermann:

The actual version of ASTM E-127 is 1998.
This standard practice asks simply for a piezoelectric immersion type probe containing a transducer of 0.38 inch = 9,5 mm diameter.
The material of the transducer does't matter.

Already the 1994 version of E 127 does not mention an old fashioned X-cut quartz.

Please, actualize your standards.

Kind regards
Udo Schlengermann



 
 Reply 
 
Udo Schlengermann
Consultant, -
Standards Consulting, Germany, Joined Nov 1998, 179

Udo Schlengermann

Consultant, -
Standards Consulting,
Germany,
Joined Nov 1998
179
05:48 Sep-13-1999
Re: ASTM E 127 Par. 11

:
: : I am Phil Herman Jr. from PH Tool Reference Standards. We manufacture NDT Standards and Test Blocks. I am searching for a new or used X-cut quartz immersion transducer, 5 MHz, 3/8" effective diameter. I realize this is not current but I am trying to satisfy the requirements of Checking Ultrasonic Characteristics of 7075-T6 Aluminum ASTM Flat-bottom hole Blocks that PH Tool manufactures. E 127 seems to lock us (or the lab we'll use) into using this type of search unit. Am I interpreting the requirements of Par. 11 correctly? If so, does anyone know where I may find a used unit, or where I may have one made?

: Just one opinion here, but I'd be inclined to take exception to the word "quartz" and concentrate on the diameter, frequency, and functional specifications described in 11.3.5 and subsequent paragraphs. I notice that E 127 was first adopted in 1958, when quartz transducers were still in common use in NDT. Since then, the industry has shifted to piezoceramics, piezopolymers, and nowcomposites due to their vastly superior performance in NDT transducers, and quartz has been out of general use for a very long time. I'm wondering if that "quartz" reference is simply an anachronism that has somehow escaped revision over the years. Maybe someone in this group has been involved in writing or revising E 127 and can comment further on the history of that procedure.

: In any case, there are commonly available commercial 5 MHz 0.375" diameter piezoceramic immersion transducers that will meet the all of the functional requirements of the test outlined in E 127.

: --Tom Nelligan

reply by Udo Schlengermann:

The actual version of ASTM E-127 is 1998.
This standard practice asks simply for a piezoelectric immersion type probe containing a transducer of 0.38 inch = 9,5 mm diameter.
The material of the transducer does't matter.

Already the 1994 version of E 127 does not mention an old fashioned X-cut quartz.

Please, actualize your standards.

Kind regards
Udo Schlengermann

second reply by Udo Schlengermann:

Obviously when making the revision of ASTM E127
only the general chapter 8.5 was corrected. There is only a claim for a piezoelectric transducer of 0.38 inch diameter (10 MHz).

But clause 11.3.5 was not corrected, still claiming a 5 MHz, X-cut quartz transducer generating a specified sound beam.
But this beam is generated by a transducer with an effective transducer diameter of 0.375 inches.
The text of note 6 only tells that during the development of this standard (some decades ago) quartz transducers of 0.5 inch diameter with an 0.375 inch electrode were used.

Today all narrow band piston type oscillators of 0.375 inch diameter will generate the required sound beam, independent of their material.

It seems standard E127 has to be revised again to be consistent in clauses 8.4, 8.5 and 11.3.5.

Kind regards
Udo Schlengermann



 
 Reply 
 
Phil Herman Jr.
Sales, - Manufacture of NDT Reference Standards/Test Blocks
PH Tool Reference Standards, USA, Joined Oct 1999, 79

Phil Herman Jr.

Sales, - Manufacture of NDT Reference Standards/Test Blocks
PH Tool Reference Standards,
USA,
Joined Oct 1999
79
06:54 Sep-13-1999
Re: ASTM E 127 Par. 11
:
: :
: : : I am Phil Herman Jr. from PH Tool Reference Standards. We manufacture NDT Standards and Test Blocks. I am searching for a new or used X-cut quartz immersion transducer, 5 MHz, 3/8" effective diameter. I realize this is not current but I am trying to satisfy the requirements of Checking Ultrasonic Characteristics of 7075-T6 Aluminum ASTM Flat-bottom hole Blocks that PH Tool manufactures. E 127 seems to lock us (or the lab we'll use) into using this type of search unit. Am I interpreting the requirements of Par. 11 correctly? If so, does anyone know where I may find a used unit, or where I may have one made?

: : Just one opinion here, but I'd be inclined to take exception to the word "quartz" and concentrate on the diameter, frequency, and functional specifications described in 11.3.5 and subsequent paragraphs. I notice that E 127 was first adopted in 1958, when quartz transducers were still in common use in NDT. Since then, the industry has shifted to piezoceramics, piezopolymers,and now composites due to their vastly superior performance in NDT transducers, and quartz has been out of general use for a very long time. I'm wondering if that "quartz" reference is simply an anachronism that has somehow escaped revision over the years. Maybe someone in this group has been involved in writing or revising E 127 and can comment further on the history of that procedure.

: : In any case, there are commonly available commercial 5 MHz 0.375" diameter piezoceramic immersion transducers that will meet the all of the functional requirements of the test outlined in E 127.

: : --Tom Nelligan

: reply by Udo Schlengermann:

: The actual version of ASTM E-127 is 1998.
: This standard practice asks simply for a piezoelectric immersion type probe containing a transducer of 0.38 inch = 9,5 mm diameter.
: The material of the transducer does't matter.

: Already the 1994 version of E 127 does not mention an old fashioned X-cut quartz.

: Please, actualize your standards.

: Kind regards
: Udo Schlengermann

Dear Udo,

While I wish this were the case, I must disagree with your interpretation of E 127. My hardcopy is the 1995 update (E 127-95), contained in the 1998 edition of volume 03.03. Paragraph 11.3.5 states the immersion unit "shall comprise an X-cut quartz transducer element resonant at 5.0 MHz..." In addition, Note 6 following this paragraph also has a specific reference to a quartz transducer. These references conflict with your statement that the 1994 update makes no mention of quartz. I have not seen the 1998 update and cannot comment on this one. I am hopeful that an update exists (or will soon) which doesn't require quartz. We have been unable to locate such a transducer to date. I encourage anyone with additional knowledge or opinion on this subject to respond.

Regards,
Phil Herman, Jr.
PH Tool Reference Standards




 
 Reply 
 
Robert (Rocky) A. Day
Engineering
Milky Way Jewels, USA, Joined Nov 1998, 40

Robert (Rocky) A. Day

Engineering
Milky Way Jewels,
USA,
Joined Nov 1998
40
09:11 Sep-13-1999
Re: ASTM E 127 Par. 11
I must disagree with the statement made that all 0.375 inch diameter transducers have the 'required' sound beam. The quartz transducer with a 0.5 inch crystal diameter and a 0.375 inch electrode doesn't produce the same beam as a 0.375 inch diameter crystal of another material, even if the bandwidths are the same. Since quartz is very narrow band one would also be concerned about changes induced in the ASTM E-127 procedure by substituting a piezoceramic with say 80% bandwidth for a quartz crystal with a bandwidth of 5%. Diffraction is effected both by electrode shape (apodizing) and by bandwidth.

The effects are described in Krautkramer P20.

Whether ASTM E-127 results would be influenced by these differences is not obvious to me, but I suspect they would be. It would be interesting to know if anyone has made measurements using wideband pulses and pulse-tones with and without apodized electrodes? It would also be interesting to know what tolerances on transducers might be appropriate for a 'Standard Practice' and why such tolerance are not in Para 11?

Regards,
Robert (Rocky) A. Day
Second Sound
Ultrasonic Systems
220 Gates Street
San Francisco, CA 94110
(415) 647-0625
Fax: (415) 641-4947

: But this beam is generated by a transducer with an effective transducer diameter of 0.375 inches.
: The text of note 6 only tells that during the development of this standard (some decades ago) quartz transducers of 0.5 inch diameter with an 0.375 inch electrode were used.

: Today all narrow band piston type oscillators of 0.375 inch diameter will generate the required sound beam, independent of their material.

: It seems standard E127 has to be revised again to be consistent in clauses 8.4, 8.5 and 11.3.5.

: Kind regards
: Udo Schlengermann




 
 Reply 
 
John Slotwinski
John Slotwinski
07:22 Sep-15-1999
Re: ASTM E 127 Par. 11
: I am Phil Herman Jr. from PH Tool Reference Standards. We manufacture NDT Standards and Test Blocks. I am searching for a new or used X-cut quartz immersion transducer, 5 MHz, 3/8" effective diameter. I realize this is not current but I am trying to satisfy the requirements of Checking Ultrasonic Characteristics of 7075-T6 Aluminum ASTM Flat-bottom hole Blocks that PH Tool manufactures. E 127 seems to lock us (or the lab we'll use) into using this type of search unit. Am I interpreting the requirements of Par. 11 correctly? If so, does anyone know where I may find a used unit, or where I may have one made?

I apologize for jumping in on this topic late; I just became aware of this discussion this morning. Until recently I served as chairman of the ASTM subcommittee responsible for E127, and I was also in charge of the NIST UT Reference Block Calibration Facility, so I hope that I can clarify some of this confusion.

(1) Section 8 of E127 deals only with checking the raw metal stock used for making reference blocks. Here there is no requirement of having a quartz element transducer. Section 11 covers the actual inspection and qualification of finished blocks and _does_ require the use of a quartz element transducer. Quartz element transducers are required because, unlike ceramic element transducers, there is much less variability between nominally identical quartz transducers. This allows for better repeatability between different calibration facilities. The quartz requirement is not optional for _block_ qualification.

(2) Some companies do still manufacture quartz element UT transducers. I will post their names within the next few days (I have to find the folder.)

(3) Annex A of E127 provides a method for doing a block to block certification, that does not require the use of a quartz transducer, provided that one of the sets has been certified previously by NIST.

I hope this helps. If anyone needs additional information (including references etc) please feel free to contact me directly.

John Slotwinski, Ph.D.
Physicist
Office of the Director
Manufacturing Engineering Laboratory
National Institute of Standards and Technology
100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8200
Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8200
john.slotwinski@nist.gov


 
 Reply 
 
John Slotwinski
John Slotwinski
06:20 Sep-16-1999
Re: ASTM E 127 Par. 11
: I am Phil Herman Jr. from PH Tool Reference Standards. We manufacture NDT Standards and Test Blocks. I am searching for a new or used X-cut quartz immersion transducer, 5 MHz, 3/8" effective diameter. I realize this is not current but I am trying to satisfy the requirements of Checking Ultrasonic Characteristics of 7075-T6 Aluminum ASTM Flat-bottom hole Blocks that PH Tool manufactures. E 127 seems to lock us (or the lab we'll use) into using this type of search unit. Am I interpreting the requirements of Par. 11 correctly? If so, does anyone know where I may find a used unit, or where I may have one made?

At last check (Jan/99) Dave Garland from Valpey-Fisher made E127-type quartz transducers. If anyone needs his number please contact me directly.

regards,

John Slotwinski, Ph.D.
Physicist
Office of the Director
Manufacturing Engineering Laboratory
National Institute of Standards and Technology
100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8200
Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8200
john.slotwinski@nist.gov


 
 Reply 
 

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