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Technical Discussions
william werdenberg
Engineering,
USA, Joined Feb 2012, 3

william werdenberg

Engineering,
USA,
Joined Feb 2012
3
16:55 Feb-15-2012
Online thickness control for multi layer composite pipe

Gents:

Can you help me ?

I am looking for a Company that manufactures online thickness testing machines so that I can measure the thickness of different layers in composite (plastic) pipe. A thin inner layer, a bonding layer, and a strength layer. Pipe circumference is 1 inch to 6 ", ideally would want a 360 measurement but we could measure at multiple discreet points around the exterior of the pipe as it being manufactured.

Can you guide me as to where to look for this instrumentation to make it part of our real tim online quality and process control ?

We have been testing with a Company for 4 months and have not been successful, need to move to another vender with a proven track record and good technical expertise.

 
 Reply 
 
Rolf Diederichs
Director,
NDT.net, Germany, Joined Nov 1998, 617

Rolf Diederichs

Director,
NDT.net,
Germany,
Joined Nov 1998
617
17:34 Feb-15-2012
Re: Online thickness control for multi layer composite pipe
In Reply to william werdenberg at 16:55 Feb-15-2012 (Opening).

I wrote the article: Ultrasonic Testing in Pipe Extrusion
http://www.ndt.net/article/rohrext/rohre_e.htm

In the chapter Coextrusion Layer Thickness Measurement:
"There is a wide range of Coex Pipes, with extreme differences, from thin automotive hose up to thick PVC foam pipe.
In general there is no statement available, whether ultrasonics can measure the total or the layer thickness. It is depend upon the layer thickness and the kind of materials, whether it is possible to do an evaluation. Each individual case has to be investigated."

In some applications the barrier layer can be measured but the contact layers are often to thin. Can you tell us more about the layer dimensions.

In general you need a vendor that have excellent ultrasonic know how. Many companies of the NDT market are better for this task than companies witch are good in process control but have leak in ultrasonic knowledge.

Rolf

 
 Reply 
 
Wieslaw Bicz
Engineering,
PBP Optel sp. z o.o., Poland, Joined Feb 2009, 276

Wieslaw Bicz

Engineering,
PBP Optel sp. z o.o.,
Poland,
Joined Feb 2009
276
17:46 Feb-15-2012
Re: Online thickness control for multi layer composite pipe
In Reply to william werdenberg at 16:55 Feb-15-2012 (Opening).

We are manufacturing devices for testing plastic pipes during production (see please here: http://www.optel.eu/project/english/rury.htm), but for a pipe with multiple layers such simple system could be not enough. It would require a more sophisticated approach.

If you would send me a sample of your pipe, I would check the possibilities and prepare you an offer.

 
 Reply 
 
william werdenberg
Engineering,
USA, Joined Feb 2012, 3

william werdenberg

Engineering,
USA,
Joined Feb 2012
3
18:13 Feb-15-2012
Re: Online thickness control for multi layer composite pipe
In Reply to Rolf Diederichs at 17:34 Feb-15-2012 .

Gents:

We are looking for a Company that has commercially available online real time measuring system that will do the following, we estimate it will be with 8 transducers circumferentially spaced:

(1) Measure the OD of the pipe
(2) Measure the ID of the pipe
(3) The outer strength layer is typically POLYPROPYLENE between 80 - 260 mils thick
(4) The inner layer is NYLON 30 -100 mils thick and quite distinct such that the reflection layer is clearly visible
(5) The transition layer can be measured thru looking at the differences

Can you provide the name of Companies in this field ?

 
 Reply 
 
Adel
Adel
03:03 Feb-17-2012
Re: Online thickness control for multi layer composite pipe
In Reply to william werdenberg at 18:13 Feb-15-2012 .

Hello William,

Infrared thermography (IRT) can test the uniformity of the thickness of different layers. If the thermal diffusivity is known, this allow to measure the thickness of different layers in composite pipe.


Adel

 
 Reply 
 
massimo carminati
Consultant, AUT specialist
IMG Ultrasuoni Srl, Italy, Joined Apr 2007, 691

massimo carminati

Consultant, AUT specialist
IMG Ultrasuoni Srl,
Italy,
Joined Apr 2007
691
06:31 Feb-17-2012
Re: Online thickness control for multi layer composite pipe
In Reply to william werdenberg at 18:13 Feb-15-2012 .

Dear William,

I would not be so optimistic regarding the "commercially available" for such system. We have the 8 channels electronics available with enough measuring gates for ID, OD and different layers measurements and software can be 100% custom, but what is more important is the mechanical part of the online testing machine and the online variable (oscillation, straightness,temperature etc,.)

 
 Reply 
 
Rolf Diederichs
Director,
NDT.net, Germany, Joined Nov 1998, 617

Rolf Diederichs

Director,
NDT.net,
Germany,
Joined Nov 1998
617
09:04 Feb-17-2012
Re: Online thickness control for multi layer composite pipe
In Reply to massimo carminati at 06:31 Feb-17-2012 .

There are systems commercially available for this applications like this one from Optel that Wieslaw mentioned. The main problem in this case here is the layer evaluation. For further discussions we need more information from William.

 
 Reply 
 
Lalit Mohan Kothari
Consultant, -
On ..IOCL and BARC(Bhabha Atomic Research Centre).etc, India, Joined Jan 2003, 128

Lalit Mohan Kothari

Consultant, -
On ..IOCL and BARC(Bhabha Atomic Research Centre).etc,
India,
Joined Jan 2003
128
10:21 Feb-17-2012
Re: Online thickness control for multi layer composite pipe
In Reply to william werdenberg at 16:55 Feb-15-2012 (Opening).

William,
You can try combination of Nucleonic gauging for this
Thanks

 
 Reply 
 
John O'Brien
Consultant, -
Chevron ETC , USA, Joined Jan 2000, 280

John O'Brien

Consultant, -
Chevron ETC ,
USA,
Joined Jan 2000
280
14:43 Feb-17-2012
Re: Online thickness control for multi layer composite pipe
In Reply to william werdenberg at 16:55 Feb-15-2012 (Opening).

Sounds like you might have success looking at Acousto Ultrasound. I seem to remember MISTRAS Group having a system called TScout that might do the job.

 
 Reply 
 
Wieslaw Bicz
Engineering,
PBP Optel sp. z o.o., Poland, Joined Feb 2009, 276

Wieslaw Bicz

Engineering,
PBP Optel sp. z o.o.,
Poland,
Joined Feb 2009
276
20:37 Feb-19-2012
Re: Online thickness control for multi layer composite pipe
In Reply to william werdenberg at 18:13 Feb-15-2012 .

"(5) The transition layer can be measured thru looking at the differences"

This is not true. If you have access only from one side, this is not possible and must be made in a different way.

 
 Reply 
 
Rolf Diederichs
Director,
NDT.net, Germany, Joined Nov 1998, 617

Rolf Diederichs

Director,
NDT.net,
Germany,
Joined Nov 1998
617
12:11 Feb-20-2012
Re: Online thickness control for multi layer composite pipe
In Reply to william werdenberg at 18:13 Feb-15-2012 .

William,

If I understand you correct the tube consist of 2 layers. Outside layer of a minimum of 0,2mm and inner layer of 0,075mm. I guess that the plastic material have about 2000 m/s sound velocity. From point of dimension a measurement should be possible by using a high damped high frequency probe in a range of 15 MHz. Anyway a vendor must confirm this on a sample and afterwards under process condition. A company INOEX is specialized in this field. They offer a system called AUREX MK. I don't know exact how is today their ultrasonics expertize. Anyway they used to work together with an ultrasonic company that delivered the ultrasonic probes. I guess it is still Karl Deutsch from Germany Wuppertal. To find a good supplier is just a question of how much money you are ready to spend. I know that plastic companies hesitate to spend money for in-line quality control.

 
 Reply 
 
William Werdenberg
Engineering,
USA, Joined Feb 2012, 3

William Werdenberg

Engineering,
USA,
Joined Feb 2012
3
19:12 Feb-21-2012
Re: Online thickness control for multi layer composite pipe
In Reply to Rolf Diederichs at 12:11 Feb-20-2012 .

Gents:

Thanks to all for your replies, have been off line. We are certainly prepared to spend $$ on an appropriate machine and software, the previous version that did not work was in the $50,000 US range. We are looking for a Company with the right expertise both on the hardware side as well as the software/signal processing. I will investigate the various companies mentioned in the posts. Having the capability for support here at our mfg plant in the US will be important for the project ... we are prepared to move ahead immediately if we find the right partner that can demonstrate they have done something similar and have the in house expertise. To reiterate:

The pipe diameter is 1" to 6", the bulk of the applications will be in the 3 1/2" to 6" diameter range.

It is multi layer pipe as there is an outer strength member (polypropelyne 80-260 mils thick), a bonding layer (transition layer), and an internal layer (nylon or fortron: 30-100 mils thick).

We want to measure online from the outside of the pipe during the mfg process to see OD, ID, and the thickness of the different layers at 4-8 different axial points and infer roundness and then control process variables for QC on thickness of the different layers.

We are open to the technology employed, but have been led to believe that ultrasonics may work best.

 
 Reply 
 
Polipilli Laxman
Polipilli Laxman
14:25 Nov-21-2019
Re: Online thickness control for multi layer composite pipe
In Reply to william werdenberg at 16:55 Feb-15-2012 (Opening).

Dear Sir,

Please procure OLYMPUS 650 WITH 10MHZ T/R sensor,

It will be helpfull for checking bonding and thickness of polymer sheet.

 
 Reply 
 
david
Director,
Demeq SRL, Argentina, Joined Aug 2011, 4

david

Director,
Demeq SRL,
Argentina,
Joined Aug 2011
4
17:20 Nov-21-2019
Re: Online thickness control for multi layer composite pipe
In Reply to Polipilli Laxman at 14:25 Nov-21-2019 .

Dear Polipilli, where are you located? What is the thickness and temperature of the composite pipes that you need to measure? You are looking at measuring the total thickness, correct? Can you measure thickness using a "conventional" thickness gauge with a 2 or 5MHz transducer? We may be able to develop a system for you...

 
 Reply 
 
Wieslaw Bicz
Engineering,
PBP Optel sp. z o.o., Poland, Joined Feb 2009, 276

Wieslaw Bicz

Engineering,
PBP Optel sp. z o.o.,
Poland,
Joined Feb 2009
276
16:18 Nov-25-2019
Re: Online thickness control for multi layer composite pipe
In Reply to William Werdenberg at 19:12 Feb-21-2012 .

Could you answer the following questions:
1. How thick is a bonding layer?
2. Do you know acoustic parameters of each layer material?
3. How accurate should be your measurement?
4. In how many points (on the circumference of the pipe) do you want to measure?

We have large experience with such measurements but it is not simple to establish such measurement from only one side.

 
 Reply 
 

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