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Technical Discussions
AMSNDt
AMSNDt
04:17 Dec-15-2003
NDT before or after annealing of tubular products

Can someone please direct me to a Standard or Practice that clearly states that NDT should be performed after HT processes or does it matter

Thanks


 
 Reply 
 
Godfrey Hands
Consultant,
PRI Nadcap, United Kingdom, Joined Nov 1998, 304

Godfrey Hands

Consultant,
PRI Nadcap,
United Kingdom,
Joined Nov 1998
304
08:31 Dec-15-2003
Re: NDT before or after annealing of tubular products
----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Can someone please direct me to a Standard or Practice that clearly states that NDT should be performed after HT processes or does it matter
: Thanks
------------ End Original Message ------------

Hi,
Don't know of a standard that says NDT after HT, but it makes sense to test after HT.

HT can cause cracking in some circumstances, so you need to be sure that there are no cracks in the final product.

Depends to a great extent on the HT costs if you also test before HT.
For instance, if you test welds on a large vessel only after HT, and find a repair, then you have the HT costs again after repair.

If you test individual mass-produced small components, extra HT costs are not significant and before HT NDT can possibly be skipped.


Godfrey Hands


 
 Reply 
 
S.V.Swamy
Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex , India, Joined Feb 2001, 787

S.V.Swamy

Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex ,
India,
Joined Feb 2001
787
05:39 Dec-15-2003
Re: NDT before or after annealing of tubular products
Off-hand I can't give you the reference but many specifications do ask for NDT afte Heat Treatment only. Reason being that tight cracks which may be missed or fine cracks which may be produced due to stresses being redistributed will be detected.

Removal of scale after HT is important especially if PT is being tried.

Regards.

Swamy

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Can someone please direct me to a Standard or Practice that clearly states that NDT should be performed after HT processes or does it matter
: Thanks
------------ End Original Message ------------




 
 Reply 
 
David Harvey
Engineering
ATI - Wah Chang, USA, Joined Nov 2002, 42

David Harvey

Engineering
ATI - Wah Chang,
USA,
Joined Nov 2002
42
06:10 Dec-15-2003
Re: NDT before or after annealing of tubular products
I am not familiar with an industry specification or standard that requires NDT after HT on tubulars. Some specific customers or fabricators may do so, but I have not seen a standard that does. I am sure that the material and part design will bear on whether or not it matters - in some cases post-HT NDT is not feasible when rework or removal of defects would result in scrapped tubes.
----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Can someone please direct me to a Standard or Practice that clearly states that NDT should be performed after HT processes or does it matter
: Thanks
------------ End Original Message ------------



 
 Reply 
 
DJ Kallhof
DJ Kallhof
06:41 Dec-15-2003
Re: NDT before or after annealing of tubular products
----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Off-hand I can't give you the reference but many specifications do ask for NDT afte Heat Treatment only. Reason being that tight cracks which may be missed or fine cracks which may be produced due to stresses being redistributed will be detected.
: Removal of scale after HT is important especially if PT is being tried.
: Regards.
: Swamy
: : Can someone please direct me to a Standard or Practice that clearly states that NDT should be performed after HT processes or does it matter
: : Thanks
------------ End Original Message ------------
ASTM E 1417 Para. 6.8 Examination Sequence- Final penetrant examination shall be performed after completion of all operations that could... expose discontinuities... open to the surface. Such operations include... ,and heat treating.



 
 Reply 
 
J O'Brien
Consultant, -
Chevron ETC , USA, Joined Jan 2000, 280

J O'Brien

Consultant, -
Chevron ETC ,
USA,
Joined Jan 2000
280
07:35 Dec-15-2003
Re: NDT before or after annealing of tubular products
Purchase Order Specifications control. If a reference code is called out look there.

For example ASME B31.1 Chapter VI Para 341.3 (a) For P Nos 3, 4 and 5 materials , examination shall be performed after completion of any heat treatment.

Regards



 
 Reply 
 
David Tamorron Musu
David Tamorron Musu
03:23 Dec-16-2003
Re: NDT before or after annealing of tubular products
Dear Mr. AMSNDt,

I did my final project in college about Failure Analysis of Dryer Shell Cracking. The research was done by checking the fracture, test the chemical composition, and simulate the cyclic thermal (Heat Treatment/HT) in the laboratory.

At HT variations (temperature & time), I simulated my specimen by quenching treatment every time after my HT is done. I also took macro & micro photographs, and then counted its boundary size using OPTIMAS 2000 computer program. To check the chemical composition, I used spectrophotometer testing.

Believe it or not... the result is that chemical composition now has different compared to the original one --> I think material selection is not available.

One thing I want sharing in this case of my final project result: HT simulation shows that increasing of thermal cyclic, temperature, and heating time causing reduction of ductility ---> This phenomena known as embrittlement.

Rgrds & God Bless


----------- Start Original Message -----------
:Can someone please direct me to a Standard or Practice that clearly states that NDT should be performed after HT processes or does it matter
: Thanks
------------ End Original Message ------------




 
 Reply 
 
Daniel Rice
Consultant, Ultrasonic Evaluation of Resistance Spot Welding
Daniel H. Rice Consulting Services, USA, Joined Jan 2003, 10

Daniel Rice

Consultant, Ultrasonic Evaluation of Resistance Spot Welding
Daniel H. Rice Consulting Services,
USA,
Joined Jan 2003
10
07:01 Dec-16-2003
Re: NDT before or after annealing of tubular products
----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Dear Mr. AMSNDt,
: I did my final project in college about Failure Analysis of Dryer Shell Cracking. The research was done by checking the fracture, test the chemical composition, and simulate the cyclic thermal (Heat Treatment/HT) in the laboratory.
: At HT variations (temperature & time), I simulated my specimen by quenching treatment every time after my HT is done. I also took macro & micro photographs, and then counted its boundary size using OPTIMAS 2000 computer program. To check the chemical composition, I used spectrophotometer testing.
: Believe it or not... the result is that chemical composition now has different compared to the original one --> I think material selection is not available.
: One thing I want sharing in this case of my final project result: HT simulation shows that increasing of thermal cyclic, temperature, and heating time causing reduction of ductility ---> This phenomena known as embrittlement.
: Rgrds & God Bless
:
: : Can someone please direct me to a Standard or Practice that clearly states that NDT should be performed after HT processes or does it matter
: : Thanks
------------ End Original Message ------------

ASTM A609 States as most, ASTM standards inspection that the product should be inspected in the finished heat treated state.
I have learned the following, the finished heat treated state may induce cracking if improperly performed, or interupted. The heat treatment source may or may not know of the interuption or quenching of a improper heat treatment.
Example a supervisor, pulled heat treatment 1 hour early, which probably would have been ok! but, it was raining and the roof leaked where the fork truck driver placed the large wrought 4140 die casting. And, yes the die hardened, instead of softening, and the volosity increased,making a class 2 die a class 3 die.
Therefore with the liability of NDT and the political aspects of inspection. I would hope that inspection couldbe performed after final heat treatment. After all it is Nondestructive, right!!



 
 Reply 
 
Mehmet Bal
Consultant
Turkey, Joined Nov 2003, 7

Mehmet Bal

Consultant
Turkey,
Joined Nov 2003
7
08:50 Dec-16-2003
Re: NDT before or after annealing of tubular products
Dear Mr. AMSNDT,
I can reference you ASTM E 1444-Magnetic Particle Examination Section 5-5: Examnination Sequence-When Magnatic Particle examination is specified it shall be performed after the completetion of operations that could cause surface or near surface defects. These operations include, but are not limited to, forging, heat treating, ...I hope that will help.
Good lucks
Mehmet Bal
----------- Start Original Message -----------
: : Dear Mr. AMSNDt,
: : I did my final project in college about Failure Analysis of Dryer Shell Cracking. The research was done by checking the fracture, test the chemical composition, and simulate the cyclic thermal (Heat Treatment/HT) in the laboratory.
: : At HT variations (temperature & time), I simulated my specimen by quenching treatment every time after my HT is done. I also took macro & micro photographs, and then counted its boundary size using OPTIMAS 2000 computer program. To check the chemical composition, I used spectrophotometer testing.
: : Believe it or not... the result is that chemical composition now has different compared to the original one --> I think material selection is not available.
: : One thing I want sharing in this case of my final project result: HT simulation shows that increasing of thermal cyclic, temperature, and heating time causing reduction of ductility ---> This phenomena known as embrittlement.
: : Rgrds & God Bless
: :
: : : Can someone please direct me to a Standard or Practice that clearly states that NDT should be performed after HT processes or does it matter
: : : Thanks
: ASTM A609 States as most, ASTM standards inspection that the product should be inspected in the finished heat treated state.
: I have learned the following, the finished heat treated state may induce cracking if improperly performed, or interupted. The heat treatment source may or may not know of the interuption or quenching of a improper heat treatment.
: Example a supervisor, pulled heat treatment 1 hour early, which probably would have been ok! but, it was raining and the roof leaked where the fork truck driver placed the large wrought 4140 die casting. And, yes the die hardened, instead of softening, and the volosity increased,making a class 2 die a class 3 die.
: Therefore with the liability of NDT and the political aspects of inspection. I would hope that inspection could be performed after final heat treatment. After all it is Nondestructive, right!!
------------ End Original Message ------------




 
 Reply 
 
steve hornby
NDT Inspector, NDT Manager
BAE SYSTEMS, SUBMARINES, United Kingdom, Joined Nov 2003, 4

steve hornby

NDT Inspector, NDT Manager
BAE SYSTEMS, SUBMARINES,
United Kingdom,
Joined Nov 2003
4
02:46 Dec-16-2003
Re: NDT before or after annealing of tubular products
----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Can someone please direct me to a Standard or Practice that clearly states that NDT should be performed after HT processes or does it matter
: Thanks
------------ End Original Message ------------

Hi using Naval Engineering Standards (NES)it is a requirement that all final NDE is undertaken after the component is in its final conddition ie after any subsequent heat treating process.


 
 Reply 
 
Julius Achu
Julius Achu
14:08 Jan-10-2017
Re: NDT before or after annealing of tubular products
In Reply to AMSNDt at 04:17 Dec-15-2003 (Opening).

Can someone tell me, if I do not perform NDT before HT can that lead me in to any failures or is a personal requirement, if I choose too or not too it’s my choice?

 
 Reply 
 
Bruce McPherson
Consultant
MFL Services, United Kingdom, Joined Mar 2009, 26

Bruce McPherson

Consultant
MFL Services,
United Kingdom,
Joined Mar 2009
26
12:35 Jan-16-2017
Re: NDT before or after annealing of tubular products
In Reply to AMSNDt at 04:17 Dec-15-2003 (Opening).

For oilfield tubulars which are manufactured in accordance wit API 5CT, API 5D API 7-1 and API 7-2 NDT shall be performed after all heat treatment has been completed.

Regard

Bruce McPherson

 
 Reply 
 

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