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LECOEUR ELECTRONIQUE
The Specialist of electronics for ultrasonic testing.
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Technical Discussions
Atif Nadeem
Atif Nadeem
12:48 Apr-17-2019
why 03~05 mm area in single "V" weld joint not inspected?
zoom image

sir my qustion is that, why 03~05 mm area in single "V" weld joint not inspected in ultrasonic testing? See attached snap.

    
 
 Reply 
 
Daniel Braun
Daniel Braun
14:42 Apr-17-2019
Re: why 03~05 mm area in single "V" weld joint not inspected?
In Reply to Atif Nadeem at 12:48 Apr-17-2019 (Opening).

Due to geometry echoes coming from the backing strip may be misinterpreted as signals from the weld defects - this is a typical problem for conventional UT, in case of using PA modality it is mostly resolved

    
 
 Reply 
 
Wiesław Bicz
Engineering,
PBP Optel sp. z o.o., Poland, Joined Feb 2009, 256

Wiesław Bicz

Engineering,
PBP Optel sp. z o.o.,
Poland,
Joined Feb 2009
256
15:07 Apr-17-2019
Re: why 03~05 mm area in single "V" weld joint not inspected?
In Reply to Atif Nadeem at 12:48 Apr-17-2019 (Opening).

With standard angle transducers it is not possible - as shown on the pictures - ultrasonic beams are not reaching this region. But it should be possible with suitable beam configuration.

    
 
 Reply 
 
Ali
NDT Inspector,
Iran, Joined Mar 2013, 97

Ali

NDT Inspector,
Iran,
Joined Mar 2013
97
16:40 Apr-17-2019
Re: why 03~05 mm area in single "V" weld joint not inspected?
In Reply to Atif Nadeem at 12:48 Apr-17-2019 (Opening).

Is there any attachment on the surface of base metal ?

    
 
 Reply 
 
~John Pitcher
R & D,
Sonomatic Ltd, United Kingdom, Joined Sep 2016, 3

~John Pitcher

R & D,
Sonomatic Ltd,
United Kingdom,
Joined Sep 2016
3
17:50 Apr-17-2019
Re: why 03~05 mm area in single "V" weld joint not inspected?
In Reply to Ali at 16:40 Apr-17-2019 .

Have things changed over the years. Normal ultrasonic inspection of single V welds with backing rings could be 100% covered using the correct procedure.

    
 
 Reply 
 
Paul Holloway
Paul Holloway
00:24 Apr-18-2019
Re: why 03~05 mm area in single "V" weld joint not inspected?
In Reply to Atif Nadeem at 12:48 Apr-17-2019 (Opening).

Hello Atif,

Who told you the bottom 3-5mm could not be inspected? This would imply that, for example, on a 3/8" (9.5mm) weld, the bottom 1/3rd to 1/2 could not be covered. This is quite strange.

Even with a backing bar this is not an issue. I actually find that backing bars make things easier because the far side root fusion is usually a more consistent reflector than if you are trying to rely on the root protuberance alone.

    
 
 Reply 
 
Mario Talarico
NDT Inspector,
Italy, Joined May 2010, 411

Mario Talarico

NDT Inspector,
Italy,
Joined May 2010
411
10:29 Apr-18-2019
Re: why 03~05 mm area in single "V" weld joint not inspected?
In Reply to ~John Pitcher at 17:50 Apr-17-2019 .

I totally agree with John's opinion. Inspection of a V welds with backing rings follows the rules of a normal V joint, with the specificity of backing.

The use of a PA technique like Daniel says facilitates, as always, this inspection. Naturally, must be considered UT ispector with the same technical background on ultrasonic techniques.

When the assumption of confidence with the UT techniques was not so high, the UT inspector for butt-weld joint had to pass a specific examination for this configuration otherwise it was not enabled to inspection and sign the report. Just to give an idea!
Greetings
Mario

    
 
 Reply 
 
Daniel Braun
Daniel Braun
11:17 Apr-18-2019
Re: why 03~05 mm area in single "V" weld joint not inspected?
In Reply to Mario Talarico at 10:29 Apr-18-2019 .

With reference to the very certain sketch presented by Atif along with raising a question

https://www.ndt.net/forum/files/snap.jpg.jpg

I presume that this is a screenshot was not invented by Atif but taken out of some procedure. And the possible reason behind is that the authors of the procedure had a doubt about the operator's ability in performing the reliable on the spot interpretation based on the signals that they (the authors) observed at the time of preparing their procedure. In past the literature related to the conventional inspection of the welds with backing plates, rings noted the ways to distinguish the defect echoes and geometry echoes but at the end everything depends on the operator's skills and concentration while performing the inspection

1    
 
 Reply 
 
Atif
Atif
11:46 Apr-18-2019
Re: why 03~05 mm area in single "V" weld joint not inspected?
In Reply to Daniel Braun at 11:17 Apr-18-2019 .

Yes,
I agree with Mr. Danial B.

    
 
 Reply 
 
Clair Del Rei
NDT Inspector,
I am looking for a new opportunity in the labor market and I accept proposals from other countries i, Brazil, Joined Feb 2019, 15

Clair Del Rei

NDT Inspector,
I am looking for a new opportunity in the labor market and I accept proposals from other countries i,
Brazil,
Joined Feb 2019
15
22:03 Apr-18-2019
Re: why 03~05 mm area in single "V" weld joint not inspected?
In Reply to Atif Nadeem at 12:48 Apr-17-2019 (Opening).

zoom image
In this region cited by you 03 ~ 05 who will determine whether there will be inspection or not is the design standard and through the welding procedure is that it will be determined whether there will be complete melting between the Base Metal and Backing strip.
    
 
 Reply 
 
Clair D'El Rei
NDT Inspector,
I am looking for a new opportunity in the labor market and I accept proposals from other countries i, Brazil, Joined Feb 2019, 15

Clair D'El Rei

NDT Inspector,
I am looking for a new opportunity in the labor market and I accept proposals from other countries i,
Brazil,
Joined Feb 2019
15
22:28 Apr-18-2019
Re: why 03~05 mm area in single "V" weld joint not inspected?
In Reply to Atif Nadeem at 12:48 Apr-17-2019 (Opening).

This is a way for you to clear your doubts.

    
 
 Reply 
 
Clair Del Rei
NDT Inspector,
I am looking for a new opportunity in the labor market and I accept proposals from other countries i, Brazil, Joined Feb 2019, 15

Clair Del Rei

NDT Inspector,
I am looking for a new opportunity in the labor market and I accept proposals from other countries i,
Brazil,
Joined Feb 2019
15
22:44 Apr-18-2019
Re: why 03~05 mm area in single "V" weld joint not inspected?
In Reply to Atif Nadeem at 12:48 Apr-17-2019 (Opening).

This alternative is one of the practices you can use.

    
 
 Reply 
 
Atif
Atif
08:04 Apr-19-2019
Re: why 03~05 mm area in single "V" weld joint not inspected?
In Reply to Clair Del Rei at 22:44 Apr-18-2019 .

Hi,

Hope you all doing well.

Thanks all of you for calification.

I took this sketch from a german report and after seen this i was totally confused, that why this portion will not inspected by using 45 ~ 70 degree angle transducers. I agree with your comments.

Regards,

Atif

    
 
 Reply 
 
Nigel Armstrong
Engineering, - Specialist services
United Kingdom, Joined Oct 2000, 1096

Nigel Armstrong

Engineering, - Specialist services
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 2000
1096
08:20 Apr-19-2019
Re: why 03~05 mm area in single "V" weld joint not inspected?
In Reply to Atif at 11:46 Apr-18-2019 .

In the past UK operator certification for manual conventional ultrasonics required that 50% of plate butt welds to be inspected were with backing strips. I recall they were generally easier to discern good penetration and fusion in the root than welds without backing strips. Welders liked backing strips as they could increase the ampereage to ensure full penetration and fusion without danger of burnthrough.

1    
 
 Reply 
 
Mario Talarico
NDT Inspector,
Italy, Joined May 2010, 411

Mario Talarico

NDT Inspector,
Italy,
Joined May 2010
411
21:07 Apr-19-2019
Re: why 03~05 mm area in single "V" weld joint not inspected?
In Reply to Nigel Armstrong at 08:20 Apr-19-2019 .

In thicknesses starting from 6 mm for welding plates until about 14-16 mm , the WPS sketches have a gap in the root pass of 6 to 8 mm to facilitate penetration with non-manual welding. The width of the root gap in these cases facilitates signal resolution and avoids being enchanted by geometries.
I do, however, experiences with large diameters tubes where I found the root passes with systematic LOF problems: but I consider it an exception.

In any case, representation of the root pass, imagining the root gap constant, must consider the variation of 2 geometric variables: variation of the distance between backing strip and component to be welded; misalignment between the bevels. Only starting from this can we imagine and simulate realistic interasions between geometry and the defect reflectors.

I agree also that root fusion does not normally create problems (I almost always found LOF in the welding body, even several meters long and on both sides, due to the welding procedure used).

The penetration of the beam in the backing strip creates reflections from the backing strip edges, with acoustic paths similar to the reflections of the defects in the body weld.
Do necessary checks, and do not bite!

Greetings
Mario

    
 
 Reply 
 
Clair D'El Rei
NDT Inspector,
I am looking for a new opportunity in the labor market and I accept proposals from other countries i, Brazil, Joined Feb 2019, 15

Clair D'El Rei

NDT Inspector,
I am looking for a new opportunity in the labor market and I accept proposals from other countries i,
Brazil,
Joined Feb 2019
15
16:55 Apr-20-2019
Re: why 03~05 mm area in single "V" weld joint not inspected?
In Reply to Atif at 08:04 Apr-19-2019 .

It has now become easier to explain to you, as this sketch is part of a report, in my opinion, the inspector who performed the test demonstrated the sweeps performed during the test and the limit of verification of weld penetration at the inspected joint and which was only the effective throat required by the soldering procedure.

    1
 
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