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Career Discussions
John
John
12:10 Aug-26-2015
PCN certification gained by giving fake experience

Dear All,

SNT-TC-1A is used as a basic for NDT certification for technicians in most of the industries, but later due to unethical behavior of NDT Level III it became less popular. Now most of the clients prefer PCN certification as it is supposed to be controlled by BINDT. But in actual it is not, PCN certifications are controlled by BINDT authorized AEC and AQB. I have come across too many resumes with PCN certifications which are unethical. The candidate has just completed his graduation and he gets PCN certification within 3 months after his graduation. Here everyone has to think what is the use of giving clause for experience?

PCN certification is costlier than SNT-TC-1A, it would be better to conduct a practical test of the technicians instead of asking for certifications like PCN.

Certification system has become a mode of earning income rather than controlling the bad practices.

1
 
 Reply 
 
Joe Buckley
Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 1999, 524

Joe Buckley

Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 1999
524
13:42 Aug-26-2015
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to John at 12:10 Aug-26-2015 (Opening).

John
You make some fairly serious accusations.

BINDT / PCN have a robust (and expensive to operate) auditing system to ensure that all ATOs / AQB's work to the highest quality and Ethical standards. This central certification system allows the certificate to be regarded as 'portable' from one employer to another. SNT-TC-1A certificates are not portable, even if they are wrongly being used that way.

Note also that it is not necessarily required that a candidate meet the experience requirement before they take the exam, but they should not be issued with PCN certification (as against an exam pass) until they have met all requirements.

If you believe that this is not happening, can I ask you to do two things:

Firstly check with the PCN verification system (everyone should always do this with a PCN certificate from someone they are unsure about) and check that the certificate itself is genuine:

http://www.bindt.org/Certification/pcn-certificate-verification/pcn-verification-form/

Assuming it is, If you believe an AQB is acting unethically and issuing certificates that have not been earned. then contact PCN with the details.

pcn@bindt.org, or contact me directly and I will pass the on.

Joe Buckley
Honorary Secretary, BINDT.


 
 Reply 
 
John
John
14:26 Aug-26-2015
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Joe Buckley at 13:42 Aug-26-2015 .

Dear Joe,

Yes I am making an accusation which is 100% true.

I have received many resumes which show they received PCN certification by giving false experience. Already I have inform BINDT about it, I don't want to make those people public so I have forwarded you their certificates. You can go through it then you can come back to this forum to inform us what action BINDT has taken against AQB and the candidates?

Verification part has to be done 100% by BINDT during audit, not by taking few candidate files for verification. This is my suggestion.

Thanks,
John

 
 Reply 
 
Joe Buckley
Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 1999, 524

Joe Buckley

Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 1999
524
14:49 Aug-26-2015
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to John at 14:26 Aug-26-2015 .

Dear All

Just to advise that this information has been passed to PCN.

I will summarise a response when the matter has been investigated.

Joe Buckley

 
 Reply 
 
Steven Doc
Other, Quality Manager
Siemens Energy, Egypt, Joined Feb 2011, 187

Steven Doc

Other, Quality Manager
Siemens Energy,
Egypt,
Joined Feb 2011
187
22:18 Aug-26-2015
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to John at 14:26 Aug-26-2015 .

John,
CV's that show they did not have adequate experience? You mean that CV's stated "I didnt have the adequate experience, but fooled the AQB anyway"?
My CV is now 30 years long. In 4 pages of A4. It is a very brief summary of my 30 years experience I think you would agree. However, if I was to summarise my experience in say UT, I could fill 2 A4 pages of an experience record. That level of detail in depth of experience would be totally unnecessary for a CV but perfectly relevant for renewal or initial certification.

Pretty heavy dirty laundry to be putting into the public domain.

 
 Reply 
 
John
John
08:41 Aug-27-2015
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Steven Doc at 22:18 Aug-26-2015 .

Stevan,

Nobody will state in their CV that "I didnt have the adequate experience, but fooled the AQB anyway".

BINDT can be put in dark by giving fake experience records by candidate or AQB.

If the person has completed his Bachelor degree by full time course in April 2013 and he gets PCN certificate in July 2013. So it is a commonsense, anybody can understand that he has faked his experience. I hope you agree.

I don't bother how many pages the CV goes on, but it has to fulfill the requirements of the certification. Nobody can attain PCN certification by giving 3 months of experience even though if you fill 4 pages of A4.

I have conveyed to BINDT and I think Joe also has conveyed to BINDT regarding fake experience. Lets see what happens.

Thanks,
John

 
 Reply 
 
Steven Doc
Other, Quality Manager
Siemens Energy, Egypt, Joined Feb 2011, 187

Steven Doc

Other, Quality Manager
Siemens Energy,
Egypt,
Joined Feb 2011
187
09:04 Aug-27-2015
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to John at 08:41 Aug-27-2015 .

John,
You seem a tad angry. Did this guy with 3 months experience beat you to a job?
Im not making a case for or against your particular example. However, it is also possible that the person you are talking about could have been working with an NDT Company during his university holidays.

I have no idea what you expect BINDT to do if people are willing to give false information, other than their Audits on the AQB's. 100% Verification is a ludicrous notion. Can you imagine the cost of such exercises? That cost would simply be passed on to scheme/society members through membership fees, initial certification fees and renewal fees. No thank you.

Certification is only part of a Technicians employment criteria. Competence also has to be verified. This is the Employers responsibility. This will weed out the bad seeds.

 
 Reply 
 
Guest
Guest
09:48 Aug-28-2015
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Steven Doc at 09:04 Aug-27-2015 .

PCN has a conflict of interest.

The AQB (training and examining body) determines if the experience is enough. Currently only 5% need to be confirmed.

The AQB has a major conflict of interest, if the AQB has a history of not approving experience then candidates go else ware.

Experience should be determined by PCN not the AQB who has a major conflict of interest.




 
 Reply 
 
Joe Buckley
Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 1999, 524

Joe Buckley

Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 1999
524
10:34 Aug-28-2015
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Guest at 09:48 Aug-28-2015 .

It would be impractical (and very expensive) for PCN based in the UK to independently verify every candidates experience, That is a major part of what the AQB's are for. The minimum verification is 10%, (not 5) see http://www.bindt.org/downloads/CP9.pdf, The expectation is that AQB's will be rigorous in checking anything that looks suspicious.

The 'Conflict of interest' you describe seems false. If an AQB 'has a history of' and acquires a reputation for approving experience when they shouldn't they are soon going to be out of business, Not least because their trainees will be regarded with suspicion. Hopefully nobody wants anyone with false qualifications out there doing critical work so those candidates 'going elsewhere' [where exactly?] is not a downside.


 
 Reply 
 
John
John
07:48 Aug-29-2015
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Joe Buckley at 10:34 Aug-28-2015 .

Yes off course there is a cost involved in BINDT audit, but to make PCN success it is the duty of BINDT to look into all the loopholes.

Candidates will prefer to get PCN certification without any issues. So they will select the AQB which can help them get these certifications without any hassle. Most of the AQB's offers lowest fees to attract candidates and other services (document preparations), so it is no where different than SNT-TC-1A (it is not portable to switch the employer).

Advertisements are floating for PCN certification by some training school which are not approved AQB. These schools club with AQB and does their training and examination at training schools facility. Records can be created.

In this situation employer can't rely on PCN certificates alone so he has to check the technicians educational qualification and year of passing PCN. By this way I received resumes of 4 technicians who got PCN certifications by giving fake experience.

The person who gets PCN certification by giving fake experience will demand less salary than the person who follows the rules. Client asks for PCN certification so the contractor gets these kind of technicians for low salary. Obviously the salary of technicians will be below the market rate.

It is not like I am against PCN scheme. Every certification scheme is perfect if it doesn't violate ethics.

 
 Reply 
 
srujanchowdary
NDT Inspector,
Singapore testing services pte.ltd, Singapore, Joined Jul 2015, 1

srujanchowdary

NDT Inspector,
Singapore testing services pte.ltd,
Singapore,
Joined Jul 2015
1
08:52 Aug-29-2015
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to John at 07:48 Aug-29-2015 .

What u said is correct sir in my sense,now a days the pay for qualified pcn is going down because of some fraud certificates,so I requeste the BINDT take some necessary actions to stop the these fraud certificates,we hope BINDT Will take necessary actions

 
 Reply 
 
Charlie Jackson
Charlie Jackson
11:57 Sep-01-2015
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to John at 12:10 Aug-26-2015 (Opening).

John

This is an interesting thread and the comments aren’t new, however the frequency of concerned comments with reference to how PCN are controlling their overseas AQB's would appear to be on the increase. I know that from a UK perspective there are increasingly stringent requests for verified paperwork to support applications. Having said that my 40+years experience in the field I would suggest until we have structured apprenticeships in place and this is the only entry level there will always be a concern over experience levels.
My major concern is the very limited field experience some of the AQB's trainer’s posses and there should really be a concerted effort to ensure that trainers only train in their field of experience. For instance an Aerospace trainer would have little comprehension of the effects of in-service defects in Refining and a foundry experienced trainer would have little idea about the in-service flaws manifesting themselves in pressure piping.
Clients who may be from various industries are of course not blameless as some their support to committee level where changes can be implemented have been minimal. On the other hand the trainers have always shown an interest in this respect and subsequently may have more than a little influence on how things have developed.

I suppose what I am leading to is the fact that as you seem to be very passionate about the topic why not get involved in areas which may lead to the right sorts of changes and hopefully relieve some of your frustrations in the current situation.

All the best

Regards Charlie

 
 Reply 
 
Alex Easton
Alex Easton
15:49 Sep-01-2015
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to John at 12:10 Aug-26-2015 (Opening).

Certifications schemes are not perfect and are in continuous stages of progression regardless of being external or internal systems.

The schemes are based on standards and do not purport to cover all aspects. They "provide an attestation of general competence of the NDT operator. It does not represent an authorization to operate, since this remains the responsibility of the employer." (ISO9712 as an example).

When it comes to the employee it is the employers responsibility to validate the candidate in accordance with the work to be performed. It is also the duty of the employer to continuously test their employees to the internal requirements whether they have internal, third part or both.

I have come across inadequacies with examination centres but these things happen. There is no intent to be unethical.

Employee hiring practice should be reviewed before people start to chase down qualification and certification organizations.

A comprehensive practical examination will clear out the incompetent and improve your employee base.

 
 Reply 
 
Nigel Armstrong
Engineering, - Specialist services
United Kingdom, Joined Oct 2000, 1096

Nigel Armstrong

Engineering, - Specialist services
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 2000
1096
19:43 Sep-01-2015
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Alex Easton at 15:49 Sep-01-2015 .

Its likely that the PCN governing body statistically monitors all authorised test centres to spot if any has a higher success percentage than the norm and then to scrutinise / audit closely that centre's activities.

Stories of such kind have been around from pre-PCN days. I suppose the governing body has put in place audit systems capable of dealing with the growing number and geographical diversity of test centres

 
 Reply 
 
Joe Buckley
Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 1999, 524

Joe Buckley

Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 1999
524
11:02 Sep-02-2015
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Nigel Armstrong at 19:43 Sep-01-2015 .

Download Personnel Certification in NDT and CM

To summarise:

The (anonymous, not ideal, but that's OK) allegation is that some PCN certificates appear to have been issued by an overseas AQB. The candidates CV's make it difficult to confirm that the necessary experience had been gained at the time of the certificates being issued.

PCN do take these allegations seriously and will investigate, the full information packs are being requested from the AQB. However this, like any investigation, will take time.

However people need to be realistic about what certification can achieve. Like any examination process there are always potential gaps , let alone the possibility of abuse.

If as 'John' alleges, one of the AQB's is systematically assisting candidates to obtain unjustified certifications that could have extremely serious consequences, not least for any valid candidates who went through the same school. For that reason among many others I would find this extremely unlikely, as any school doing this would destroy their reputation and probably business.

But equally certification is only a part of the picture, Any employer should also scrutinise CV's, interview, conduct practical tests etc. And generally satisfy themselves that the candidate is suitable. In this case the system seems to have worked. John has seen these candidates and rejected them.

The attached article (From NDT news a few months ago) expresses some relevant views on certification form BINDT.

Beyond that, the investigation is happening, I suggest we discuss further when it has reached some conclusions.







 
 Reply 
 
Joe Buckley
Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 1999, 524

Joe Buckley

Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 1999
524
11:17 Sep-02-2015
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Joe Buckley at 11:02 Sep-02-2015 .

After posting this I realise I didn't directly address the 'request' that PCN should do 100% verification.

Hopefully everyone realises that this is impractical.

Currently the AQB's do a minimum of 10% verification. Generally this works reasonably well - candidates are likely to have spent a fair amount of their time working for employers known to the AQB, it is relatively easy to phone up people and confirm that the candidate worked for them when he said he did and did what he said he did. If there are any discrepancies further investigation can be selective.

For PCN in England to contact every employer on a CV, confirm they are who they say they are and not the candidates brother, obtain interpreters to cover language issues, work around different time zones etc etc, would cost maybe hundreds of times what the current system does and already people complain about the price.

Like anyone else who has ever obtained a security clearance I have been through a 100% history verification, Its a lot of work, If I had moved around as much as many NDT techs It would have been too impractical for them to bother. No way would NDT support this level of investigation.

Joe

 
 Reply 
 
Bob
Bob
12:30 Sep-02-2015
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to John at 12:10 Aug-26-2015 (Opening).

If the training centres were open and honest with potential students looking to move careers into NDT and made sure every one of them had all the necessary experience many would go out of business.

This industry is rife with people padding experience to deny this is naive.

The people who i meet that try and do things the honest way struggle to stay in the industry, padding experience is nothing more than using ones initiative.

Expand the practical part of the exam and bringing down the months experience needed would be a solution, or make the needed hours of training far higher.

 
 Reply 
 
Joe Buckley
Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 1999, 524

Joe Buckley

Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 1999
524
22:49 Sep-02-2015
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Bob at 12:30 Sep-02-2015 .

"If the training centres were open and honest with potential students looking to move careers into NDT and made sure every one of them had all the necessary experience many would go out of business."

Obviously errors happen, false claims get missed etc, and in many situations there is some room for debate as to what is allowable, (although in most areas guidelines are pretty tight) but if a PCN approved training school regularly fails to do the checking they are meant to, or connives in falsifying the experience they WILL be out of that business.

 
 Reply 
 
Charlie Jackson
Charlie Jackson
08:36 Sep-03-2015
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Bob at 12:30 Sep-02-2015 .

All
A passionate debate and one which we really should be solving sometime soon. The certifying authorities get a good beating from all and sundry and there can at times be good reason. However the real issue I feel is not the qualification as such but the competency level of the technician. The latter of which is really out of control of the certifying authorities under the current rules. We might want to think as some suggest whether we remove all experience requirements and then issuing a certificate which requires the technician to get sign off by the client whilst working under a mentorship system in the first 1-2 years of the certificate.
The mentorship process is used at my clients facilities over 1-2 outages to ensure the technician is familiar with all aspects of the inspections, after which he/she gets sign off by management.
This approach will obviously effect what the technician gets to earn but at least it may reduce the risk of having a technician in a loan worker situation on a job where he/she is out of their depth.
I’m sure I would have preferred this way in my early years instead of stumbling about trying to best guess what a spec meant and working out what differing defect responses were.

Cheer

Charlie

 
 Reply 
 
ezio
Other, Retired ex Laboratory Technical Manager
OMECO Research Centre, Italy, Joined Sep 2008, 273

ezio

Other, Retired ex Laboratory Technical Manager
OMECO Research Centre,
Italy,
Joined Sep 2008
273
14:29 Sep-05-2015
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to John at 12:10 Aug-26-2015 (Opening).

I think this is a false problem, or rather the problem lies elsewhere.
A good examiner quickly notice, during the practical test, if the student has less experience, as is the case in examinations of license with the car.
If the examiner is unable to do so or worse does not attend the trial but examined the cards, then the problem is the examiner.
In my day, the examiners some times were "professors" who had never picked up a probe, there are still?

 
 Reply 
 
John
John
11:03 Dec-22-2015
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Joe Buckley at 14:49 Aug-26-2015 .

All,

Finally received feedback from PCN.

"The complaint has been closed. I can assure you we have investigated this as much as we can we have written confirmation from a supervisor signing the form that the experience has been verified.
We have no further information that we can investigate."


The reply was expected as they don't want to blame the PCN system. A person is studying his Degree/Diploma in one city in full time course and at the same time he is working in other city. Degree/Diploma class will be there for 8 hours and after that he travels for 4 hours and work there for 8 hours and travels back 4 hours to his college. So total 24 hours (8 hours study+ 4 hours travel to job + 8 hours of job + 4 hours travel back to college) in a day he spends time in studying and doing job. I don't understand when he will sleep. Technically this is correct but practically it is impossible. Just documentation is enough even though the claim is false.

Its like you are actually not dead but I got your death certificate so you are dead.

My conclusion is there is no end of controlling fake experience by PCN eventhough they claim to be. According to me Client has to look into the candidates who can demonstrate the NDT work practically for which PCN certification should not be the criteria.

 
 Reply 
 
Steven Doc
Other, Quality Manager
Siemens Energy, Egypt, Joined Feb 2011, 187

Steven Doc

Other, Quality Manager
Siemens Energy,
Egypt,
Joined Feb 2011
187
12:39 Dec-22-2015
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to John at 11:03 Dec-22-2015 .

John,
If you don't mind me saying, you are like a dog with a bone with this one. You also sound very bitter. Can I ask, what in your opinion would have been a satisfactory outcome in this issue and how would it have been achieved?

If I was to lodge a complaint against every CV I received that was slightly dodgy looking, I wouldn't have time to execute my function.

 
 Reply 
 
John
John
16:45 Dec-22-2015
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Steven Doc at 12:39 Dec-22-2015 .

Steven,

This is the problem with people like you who dosn't want to bring out the facts of malpractice. Hope which you are not supporting it..

If any malpractice is brought to the concerned professional bodies notice they should thoroughly check the credentials of the candidates and not only depending on the supervisors declaration (which can be given to any person by anyone falsely claiming to be supervisor).

Definitely if found guilty then the certification should be barred. Do you think I don't have any work and just keeping this topic alive? I strongly believe there is ethics violation which should be addressed.

I don't mind people like you taking their eye off from the real issues and encouraging this kind of malpractice.


 
 Reply 
 
Callum
NDT Inspector,
United Kingdom, Joined Feb 2010, 11

Callum

NDT Inspector,
United Kingdom,
Joined Feb 2010
11
17:32 Dec-22-2015
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to John at 16:45 Dec-22-2015 .

Ok john i think it's time to take the lid off..... and cool down a tad....

I work in the oil and gas and aerospace industry..

In the Aerospace Industry We are assessed on our ability to do our job.

Which I think should apply also in the oil and gas industry.. ( which it does from time to time )

That is the only way that this could be sorted out....


Have a good Christmas and a happy new year

Callum ☺

 
 Reply 
 
Steven Doc
Other, Quality Manager
Siemens Energy, Egypt, Joined Feb 2011, 187

Steven Doc

Other, Quality Manager
Siemens Energy,
Egypt,
Joined Feb 2011
187
17:41 Dec-22-2015
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to John at 16:45 Dec-22-2015 .

Strong words John, very strong words. I wish I could say that it is the spirit of Xmas that is holding me back from further debate, however its that I just cant be arsed.

 
 Reply 
 
Joe Buckley
Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 1999, 524

Joe Buckley

Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 1999
524
13:20 Dec-23-2015
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Steven Doc at 17:41 Dec-22-2015 .

Dear All

This complaint has been taken seriously [I would point out that the vast majority of professional bodies ignore anonymous complaints] and investigated in detail. PCN requested and received copies of the files relating to these technicians.

The relevant experience was signed off by managers/ supervisors who claim that these technicians worked for them and carried out the described tasks.

It may be that some managers will give false references, but I do not believe that this is more of a problem in NDT than in any other activity.

Short of PCN having the authority and funds to hire private investigators to check every aspect of a PCN candidates background, interrogate referees under legal sanction etc, I do not see what can reasonably be done.

No certification in any field is a guarantee of suitability for a job. If you don't like the guy or don't believe what he tells you hire someone else. If, as seems to be implied, you are suspicious of candidates from certain parts of the world then feel free to hire Europeans or Americans at ten times the rate.

There really isn't much else I can suggest

Merry Christmas.

Joe



 
 Reply 
 
Guest
Guest
18:44 Dec-26-2015
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Joe Buckley at 13:20 Dec-23-2015 .

Dear Joe,

Yes the candidates credentials should be verified by their practical experience.

But do you mean in the whole world Europeans and Americans are the best? other parts of the world are not doing work ethically? I don't agree with your comment. I have seen people working better than Americans and Europeans who belong to other region of the world.....

 
 Reply 
 
Joe Buckley
Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 1999, 524

Joe Buckley

Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 1999
524
19:25 Dec-26-2015
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Guest at 18:44 Dec-26-2015 .

I do not in any sense imply that Europeans and Americans are any more ethical that those from other parts of the world. I (maybe wrongly) took the OP as suggesting that there was a widespread issue of NDT qualification corruption in some areas. In some other fields (particularly the recent scandal involving qualification for some indian Medical schools) it has been suggested that systemic corruption concerns have been raised. I can't see any evidence of this in the NDT field .

As far as I'm aware the only 'corruption' issues [In the sense of a decay in standards rather than bribery] I've seen in NDT have been in the procurements side - for example the recent advert on this forum for multiple ASNT level II's - completely ignoring the fact that this is not a transportable qualification, and that it is then up to the employer to examine / certify candidates - This is allegedly being skipped in some cases to reduce costs.

However workers are qualified. Employers / managers still have a basic responsibility to supervise them and ensure they know what they are doing. An NDT qualification and a particular length of experience doesn't imply familiarity with all the details of a particular job.

 
 Reply 
 
Guest
Guest
17:04 Dec-27-2015
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Joe Buckley at 19:25 Dec-26-2015 .

Corruption is there in every country and every field. Europe and America is not in a exception. May be less or negligence in exposing their scandal out of their country, like recently FIFA scandal where Million of $ is involved for bribery.

NDT is not an exception from corruption and scandal. Only the owner is responsible for selecting the candidates for their job based upon credentials and wherever possible practical knowledge of the candidate should be checked.

 
 Reply 
 
John
John
08:33 Jun-17-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Joe Buckley at 19:25 Dec-26-2015 .

Dear All,

This is a very old post which I started it.

By the recent news it looks like PCN has taken serious action against the candidates who gave fake experience and certificates. BINDT has withdrawn the ATO and AQB of the institutes and asked the candidates to give the re-examination at other center.

http://www.bindt.org/Certification/pcn-news/


It is really a very good move by BINDT and other's should follow their example to eliminate the fake people.

 
 Reply 
 
steve
steve
13:44 Jun-18-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Joe Buckley at 13:42 Aug-26-2015 .

guess this response did not pan out to good!

 
 Reply 
 
Joe Buckley
Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 1999, 524

Joe Buckley

Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 1999
524
23:31 Jun-18-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to steve at 13:44 Jun-18-2017 .

The recent situation shows the limits of what can reasonably achieved if people are determined to cheat the system.

In the case of the original complaint from John the suspect certificates were investigated to the limits of ability. Paperwork was good, referees were contacted and confirmed what they had attested to. That is the limit of what can reasonably be done.

There have been stories for years, but nobody was able to provide anything that would stand up as 'proof' in a legal sense. Its taken a long long time to get what is regarded as acceptable evidence.


I can only repeat what I said a couple of years ago.

If anyone has evidence of wrong doing please let the relevant bodies know.

If you hear credible stories of corruption relating to a training establishment pick another one. Same as you'd avoid a restaurant if a friend got sick.

As I said before employers / agencies who want staff but are unwilling to manage them properly share a lot of the blame. Its always up to an employer or supervisor to confirm that an employee is able to do the job. As we say in the UK "If you pay peanuts you get monkeys" - Having competent staff, who have invested the time and money to get that way is not cheap. If you are concerned with price rather than quality don't be surprised if it turns out badly.

 
 Reply 
 
concern citizen for ndt
NDT Inspector, NDT Inspector
Saudi Arabia, Joined Oct 2016, 5

concern citizen for ndt

NDT Inspector, NDT Inspector
Saudi Arabia,
Joined Oct 2016
5
12:11 Jun-19-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Joe Buckley at 10:34 Aug-28-2015 .

I strongly agree with you mr joe.

 
 Reply 
 
Rodney
Rodney
06:17 Jun-20-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to John at 12:10 Aug-26-2015 (Opening).

Check and balance has always been an issue when commercialism take precedent to professionalism (a statement I express to my ex-colleagues some 20+ ago)
All parties from employer to end user plays a role in maintaining a sound system (it would be wonderful to have a perfect system). The current scenario is a good case for all to reflect - there's no short cut, it will come back to haunt you.
I've always maintain the fact that we can certify a person competencies but not his/her integrity.
For a stat - A simple check by AQB can be as simple as drawing up a chart and tag all applicant project/claim and you be surprise how many of these candidates claim to have participated in one single project.
Nevertheless, congratulations to PCN/BINDT for taking this first bold step.


 
 Reply 
 
doug wyile
Australia, Joined Jun 2017, 43

doug wyile

Australia,
Joined Jun 2017
43
08:38 Jun-21-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Joe Buckley at 23:31 Jun-18-2017 .

NDT International story is same the same story for TWI in India in terms of experience verification and same for Argyl Ruane (acting in India in the name of decibel) . Will BINDT dare to take similar action action TWI / Argyl Ruane.

No Not possible.

When anybody writes the exam in UK, no body cares about this. But when somebody is writing the country like India, BINDT will ask 100 questions.

WHY WHy?????

for writing Level 3 in PAUT, BINDT scheme ask for a supervisor signature who has to possess 36 months of experience ?? WHo is available in the market to sign??? How a candidate gets this??? DO the requirement is correct???
How all the UK guys full fill ?? No employer in India is available to full fill this requirement.
First Level 3 in certififed by BINDT, How he gets the experience cert verification????

 
 Reply 
 
doug wyile
Australia, Joined Jun 2017, 43

doug wyile

Australia,
Joined Jun 2017
43
09:20 Jun-21-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Rodney at 06:17 Jun-20-2017 .

I did participate in the PCN exams way back in 2007 and all my batch mates are brand new guys in Phased Array UT. 4 of my batch mates doesn't know what is PAUt and PAUT machines they just see during the training. Precisely it happened in TWI.
All the guys submitted with the current employer details and they dont possess any exp. and claimed the required once. They got the certificate without and hassle and they gained the exp. later. When a guy from Uk is allowed to do that???? BINDT will sleep for UK guys and awake for this region.

 
 Reply 
 
doug wyile
Australia, Joined Jun 2017, 43

doug wyile

Australia,
Joined Jun 2017
43
09:23 Jun-21-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to John at 08:33 Jun-17-2017 .

Good job by BINDT

one person having a real experience now going and writing re exams and he is passing the exam. Then in that case it is an injustice to that person.
If all the guys comes out with good results what BINDT will do????

BINDT will become Cash rich. Next step to withdraw one more ATO/AQB and next hunt process for money?

Looting exercise never stops.

 
 Reply 
 
Joe Buckley
Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 1999, 524

Joe Buckley

Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 1999
524
00:12 Jun-22-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to doug wyile at 09:23 Jun-21-2017 .

Rolf

Not sure who is posting here but I'm fairly sure it isn't the Doug Wylie many of us know.

I will endeavour to contact him and confirm.

Joe

1
 
 Reply 
 
Joe Buckley
Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 1999, 524

Joe Buckley

Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 1999
524
00:46 Jun-22-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Joe Buckley at 00:12 Jun-22-2017 .

Heard back from Soug.
It isn't him.
I guess impersonating somebody else isn't surprising in this situation.
Joe

1
 
 Reply 
 
NDT Concern
NDT Inspector, NDT Inspector
Saudi Arabia, Joined Oct 2016, 5

NDT Concern

NDT Inspector, NDT Inspector
Saudi Arabia,
Joined Oct 2016
5
01:28 Jun-22-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Joe Buckley at 13:42 Aug-26-2015 .

Agree mr joe and i hope everything shall be corrected accordingly, just wanted to share my experience with some of my collegue that are pcn holder (i will not mention any name/nationality/company) he is pcn holder for 3 methods namely mt, pt and ut. Surprisingly he does not even know how to calibrate for ut flaw or even utg. I look up high for pcn holder before but during that time i really dissapointed. Although i have no choice because i cannot finish all the jobs alone i have to teach him how its done.

 
 Reply 
 
nanoogr8@yahoo.com
India, Joined Jun 2014, 73

nanoogr8@yahoo.com

India,
Joined Jun 2014
73
07:40 Jun-22-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Joe Buckley at 13:20 Dec-23-2015 .

Dear Joe,
May I suggest you first check out NDT Training institutes in Chennai who operate with Nigerian partners. You are very likely to stir up a lot of dust.

 
 Reply 
 
nanoogr8@yahoo.com
India, Joined Jun 2014, 73

nanoogr8@yahoo.com

India,
Joined Jun 2014
73
08:20 Jun-22-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Joe Buckley at 13:20 Dec-23-2015 .

It will be good if BINDT starts some serious investigation. No point in all these mails flying in and out. It is stirring up more dust than .....

 
 Reply 
 
Gokul Hrishikesh
NDT Inspector, PCN UT Level 3
India, Joined Jul 2013, 73

Gokul Hrishikesh

NDT Inspector, PCN UT Level 3
India,
Joined Jul 2013
73
08:23 Jun-22-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Joe Buckley at 00:46 Jun-22-2017 .

Thanks Joe for bringing it into notice!

Just look at most of the comments at NDT International thread, many of them just joined as members or anonymous ... just a name...

It happened to me couple of years before... I remember Rolf started a thread regarding it...

Thanks and Regards,

 
 Reply 
 
doug wyile
Australia, Joined Jun 2017, 43

doug wyile

Australia,
Joined Jun 2017
43
09:06 Jun-22-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to NDT Concern at 01:28 Jun-22-2017 .

there is a gentlemen who is working with us in a project in malaysia who has completed his PCN Level 2 in TWI with the past experience of Nursing profession. He came to know that NDT is a high pay job and completed his course and got the cert. How he has claimed his experience???? How he got the certificate???

This gentlemen does even know how to load a battery in Omniscan machine. He simply says in the training institute battery was loaded already and no need to learn. Horrible......

Lot of bus conductors / non engineers / nursing guys / etc etc. entering into NDT and currently got the certificate. BINDT is dare to remove all these guys from their database?????
Never??
Why?????

 
 Reply 
 
doug wyile
Australia, Joined Jun 2017, 43

doug wyile

Australia,
Joined Jun 2017
43
09:19 Jun-22-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Gokul Hrishikesh at 08:23 Jun-22-2017 .

where did you do your level 3

 
 Reply 
 
Gokul Hrishikesh
NDT Inspector, PCN UT Level 3
India, Joined Jul 2013, 73

Gokul Hrishikesh

NDT Inspector, PCN UT Level 3
India,
Joined Jul 2013
73
15:40 Jul-02-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to doug wyile at 09:19 Jun-22-2017 .

Unfortunately NDT International!!

Regards,

 
 Reply 
 
doug wyile
Australia, Joined Jun 2017, 43

doug wyile

Australia,
Joined Jun 2017
43
07:39 Jul-03-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Gokul Hrishikesh at 15:40 Jul-02-2017 .

I did my courses in NDT INternational. I am confident that I can clear all the mock exams today and my training and examinations were conducted professionally by NDT International. Very good job done by them. You should know how much the same quality of training will cost in Australia? thrice they charge for nothing. They close the door by eveing 4.30. In NDT International I did my practical trg. till 11 PM and they pumped resources for my success. I appreciate the work done by them.

Having done professionally and having learnt a lot I do agree it is very difficult to digest the decision taken by BINDT. But still I stand on my view that NDT International is the best referred by my australian friend who lives in australia.

Unfortunately you were successful on your exams???
Did you indulge in any mal practise???
if you are not, then proud gentlemen

 
 Reply 
 
Gokul Hrishikesh
NDT Inspector, PCN UT Level 3
India, Joined Jul 2013, 73

Gokul Hrishikesh

NDT Inspector, PCN UT Level 3
India,
Joined Jul 2013
73
08:59 Jul-03-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to doug wyile at 07:39 Jul-03-2017 .

Then we are on the same boat brother!

I will tell you my experience... we a group of around 20 guys went there for training (we all different national work for the same non Indian company, I reffered NDTI since I am aware of the travel and accommodation there above all it was economical...)
Mr Guruswamy Venketraman gave us training on PAUT theory... such a wonderful teaching by him.
He gave us 5 laptops with hardkey for beemtool and tomoview.
He gave us permission to practice on Ominiscan till we need...no matter how long it takes...
I am sure that can't happen anywhere else...(every penny on training was worthy)

We got all the necessary training... and 95% of us passed (we all belong from AUT background)
We had never sensed any mal practice going on there so me and our guys are good on their code of ethics policy!!

When I said "Unfortunately NDTI" I meant if I done from some other place I would not had wasted my and my company's time and money, raised from current situation.

Like you said... give exams 100 times... why should we be afraid...I am not, no one who is genuine would be... but my friend giving money 100 times is other side of this coin.

This current situation gives a big scope for few racists to demoralize a country and its people...(specially who can do good work at less money.... look where the sentiments are hurt)
BINDT published our name openly without knowing our efforts to reach where we are now.. they have not done a good work here... they think they have morale.. others don't... Shaming someone is not a crime?

My experience here on forum is that there are many powerful gentlemen who stands for what is RIGHT!!

The thread "NDT International / BINDT" is a proof of that.
We know that Justice says "let 100 culprits go but not to punish a single innocent".. and see there are people fighting for the innocent...
But here in this case my friend, even BINDT cant say who is culprit... a dictatorship under their scheme... but they forgot this is not 18th century....

Look at the platform that Rolf and team created.... I am sure this guys will be remembered a long long time for their contribution to the world of NDT....

Kind Rigards,
Gokul Pillai

 
 Reply 
 
NDTUK
NDTUK
23:46 Jul-04-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Gokul Hrishikesh at 08:59 Jul-03-2017 .

The whole process in flawed and not ISO9712 or ISO17024 Compliant.

it’s the AQB that reviews the candidates experience and ultimately decides If the candidate gets certified. Its even on the PCN result notice, where the AQB (not the certifying body) decides if the candidate has met all areas of eligibility.

ISO9712
5.2 Certification body
5.2.1 The certification body shall fulfil the requirements of ISO/IEC 17024.
5.2.2 The certification body:
a) shall initiate, promote, maintain and administer the certification scheme according to ISO/IEC 17024 and
this International Standard;

FAIL

ISO9712
7.3 Industrial NDT experience
7.3.1 General

Documentary evidence of experience shall be confirmed by the employer and submitted to the certification body

FAIL –AQB has the info, NOT PCN


ISO17024
6.3.2 When a certification body outsources work related to certification, the certification body shall:
a) take full responsibility for all outsourced work;

FAIL

7.1 Records of applicants, candidates and certified persons
7.1.1 The certification body shall maintain records. The records shall include a means to confirm the status of a certified person. The records shall demonstrate that the certification or recertification process has been effectively fulfilled, particularly with respect to application forms, assessment reports (which include examination records) and other documents relating to granting, maintaining, recertifying, expanding and reducing the scope, and suspending or withdrawing certification.

FAIL – PCN Doesn’t have these records, the AQB does (half a world away)

9.1.3 The certification body shall review the application to confirm that the applicant complies with the
application requirements of the certification scheme.

FAIL – The AQB does this (half a world away)

9.4.2 Decisions for granting, maintaining, recertifying, extending, reducing, suspending or withdrawing
certification shall not be outsourced.

FAIL - The AQB does this (half a world away)

9.4.4 The decision on certification of a candidate shall be made solely by the certification body on the basis of the information gathered during the certification process. Personnel who make the decision on certification shall not have participated in the examination or training of the candidate.

FAIL




 
 Reply 
 
Ken
Ken
11:54 Jul-14-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to John at 12:10 Aug-26-2015 (Opening).

This posting existed long before the NDT International/BINDT forum which I wonder why that was suddenly frozen.

As it is, John is proven right. Facts are not disputable. Denial will not help.

But what I want to say here is: SNT-TC-1A is only applicable to manufacturer in house training for testing their own product. It is not meant for you to take the certificate, claim competence and do external jobs. Their knowledge, techniques and skills are very limited to their own organizational use.

SNT-TC-1A in house qualified certificate holders would have their certificate expiring within 6 months of leaving the company that certifies them. If you join a new company within 6 months and they need to use you, they need to re-assess your competence and suitability before accepting you as a level II.

Manufacturers qualify NDT personnel under this scheme. What is that allowed? Firstly SNT-TC-1A is designed for that purpose. ASME code allows it because ultimately, the manufacturer is fully responsible for their own product. So if they cheat on their NDT personnel, defective product will go undetected and they get into trouble. So its a way to allow manufacturer qualify their own staff without huge cost, and at the same time, quality is still ensured.

Many sell themselves ASNT Level II under this scheme is totally incorrect. ASNT Level II are for those that took their exams directly from ASNT. Those under SNT-TC-1A that are certified in house are only called: NDT Level II, only valid for in house product and use.

There are tons of QA/QC Managers or whatever they are called out there that are not knowledgeable enough and they thought that is a ASNT qualification and happily accepts them without re-qualifying them for suitability. They do not even know how this SNT-TC-1A program operates and start calling this scheme a failure and those coming to you for work a cheat. I do not deny the certificate production in the market but these are not certificate for companies to hire and use. This poor guy that knock you door did not know his certificate is not useful The great guy that hired him did not know the certificate is of no value to you.

So please, the scheme is good but you did not use it in the right way because you do not understand the intention and requirements of the scheme.

Never hire a NDT Level II thinking its ASNT Level II. Never hire a NDT Level II that I certified by others for other purpose to be used for your purpose. Its not applicable.


 
 Reply 
 
Shane Feder
, Quality Co-ordinator (SubSea)
Thailand, Joined Dec 2014, 89

Shane Feder

, Quality Co-ordinator (SubSea)
Thailand,
Joined Dec 2014
89
15:13 Jul-19-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Ken at 11:54 Jul-14-2017 .

A little bit confused here.
This is a post from Joe previously.

It would be impractical (and very expensive) for PCN based in the UK to independently verify every candidates experience, That is a major part of what the AQB's are for. The minimum verification is 10%, (not 5) see http://www.bindt.org/downloads/CP9.pdf, The expectation is that AQB's will be rigorous in checking anything that looks suspicious.

I did my Welding Inspectors qualification (CSWIP 3.1) in Australia at an AQB or ATO (unsure of which).
All my documentation (CV/Work history) was sent to TWI in England for review and my completed examination was sent to TWI England for review and sentencing.
Certificate was then issued by TWI in England.
The AQB/ATO did nothing other than provide me with the examination papers and then supervise my examination.

Why is it so different in the NDT field ?

 
 Reply 
 
Ken
Ken
17:21 Jul-19-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Shane Feder at 15:13 Jul-19-2017 .

Hi Shane,

PCN/BINDT subscribes to ISO 9712 and ISO 17024. It is not up to BINDT, Joe or anyone to say "impractical". It is a requirement of the scheme that they are accredited to. They are thus bound by responsibility and requirements to fulfil.

If they think they do not want to fulfil the requirements, then should not seek accreditation under these two schemes. Do other schemes or set their own rules.

As you mentioned, others are doing it. TWI is doing it, why can't BINDT do it. TWI also sets up their own centres all around the world instead of ATO/AQB. Why BINDT/PCN does not do that? Impractical?

AWS sends their own invigilator down for exams, why BINDT does not do that? Impractical?

ASNT has fully computerised exams and its "fraud" proof. What BINDT does not do that? Impractical?

As far as I am concern, all are excuses for "whatever reasons"...

 
 Reply 
 
Joe Buckley
Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 1999, 524

Joe Buckley

Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 1999
524
18:31 Jul-19-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Ken at 17:21 Jul-19-2017 .

As I have previously said, I will not comment on the specifics of this case.

I am not a certification expert and have no more knowledge of the NDTI situation that anyone else on this forum. As an Officer of BINDT It would be irresponsible of me to second guess those involved.

However Ken appears to be suggesting that the use of ATO's / AQB's is in someway non-compliant with ISO 9712. This is demonstrably not true. section 5.3 details the responsibilities of an AQB. under clause 5.3.2 a certification body is ALLOWED to act as an AQB, There is nothing to suggestt an expectation that this will be the preferred way of operating.

While I'm at it I would point out that the issue raised by John a couple of years ago related purely to claimed experience. The employers detailed were contacted and confirmed that the individuals concerned had worked for them at the times claimed. Thats all anyone can do.

It is of course entirely possible that they were lying, But that is impossible to guess, and is no more of an issue here than in any application for any employment anywhere in the world.

Except in very specific situations, giving a false reference is not a crime, one just has to assume most people are honest. There was certainly no reason at that time to suspect that the AQB was not following the rules. Obviously once any paperwork compiled by an AQB is suspect anything is possible.

 
 Reply 
 
ken
ken
01:10 Jul-20-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Shane Feder at 15:13 Jul-19-2017 .

HI Shane,

Forgot to answer your question. In my professional opinion: No difference.

 
 Reply 
 
doug wyile
Australia, Joined Jun 2017, 43

doug wyile

Australia,
Joined Jun 2017
43
09:41 Jul-20-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Joe Buckley at 18:31 Jul-19-2017 .

Here is what ATO does?? (ATO approved by BINDT)
i) Marketing
ii) conducting the training
iii) course notes review and curriculum review
iV) training delivery
v) evaluation during the training

Here is what AQB does?? (AQB approved by BINDT)
i) COllect the exam application
ii) check the candidate meeting the requirements
iii) conduct the examinations
iv) evaluate the exam papers
v) transmit the results to BINDT (PASS or FAIL with the address of the candidate with marks)

What BINDT does??
Print the cert for the candidate who PASSED the exam and send it
failed student details they make an entry on the system.

BINDT outsourced all the activities and undertakes two major activities
a) Printing of the certs
b) Transmit to the candidate

Lot of guys raised a query about the competency of the BINDT personnel. For the above two activities I strongly feel BINDT is capable of printing the cert (still mistake exists) and transmit to the candidate through post.

 
 Reply 
 
doug wyile
Australia, Joined Jun 2017, 43

doug wyile

Australia,
Joined Jun 2017
43
09:52 Jul-20-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Joe Buckley at 18:31 Jul-19-2017 .

ISO17024 and ISO9712 requirements are clear.

BINDT outsource everything to the extent that they dont know how to differentiate the legitimate executions and non legitimate executions. Is that allowed in ISO 17024???

BINDT Miserably failed on their part. UKAS Miserably failed on their part watching all the scams of BINDT.

 
 Reply 
 
John
John
10:20 Jul-20-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Joe Buckley at 18:31 Jul-19-2017 .

Till now I believed that if any ethics violation is reported there will be a complete verification starting from education, experience and examination.

When the candidates experience is doubted and documents were provided to prove it then why the BINDT can't think that there may be chances of fake examination process conducted by AQB as these documents are supplied by them to BINDT...

Its really very strange disorder with the BINDT auditors...Sorry to say they are like sheep, if you tell them to go in one direction they will move in only that direction without thinking.. same thing has happened here... experience of the candidates was doubted and reported, so they enquired in that direction (only experience) without thinking the possibility of AQB's malpractice in examination of the particular candidate. They should have told the candidate to undergo re-exam 2 years back since his experience was doubted (documentary proof was provided), they didn't do that because the fake employer (preferred by AQB) provided them the fake experience certificate....BINDT also will not mind till the documents are perfectly given by AQB... Question arises whether BINDT is just a spectator or certification body or didn't have good auditors...

In this case BINDT says "we investigated his experience and we have proof that it was verified by his employer we cannot take further action until we have evidence"...

Legally speaking BINDT don't have proof of malpractice done by the particular candidate now since his experience was satisfied by BINDT, no proof of examination violation (2 years ago) by that particular candidate, BINDT has found issues with the AQB, so now question arises on what basis their certification of this candidate is revoked or subjected to re-examination....

You can't just say two years before the candidate was perfect and gave examination perfectly as mentioned by BINDT, and now say that had have done a ethics violation because of AQB malpractice... If you are doing so then BINDT is also subjected to punishment... because you certify that the candidate was perfectly qualified....

Doesn't make sense to me....

BINDT can't dictate people to follow their policies... policies are below the standards... there is no ISO standard which will support their decision of revoking the candidates certification because of AQB's and BINDT's failure......

And interestingly I see that the NDT International employees who were involved in this scam, their certificates are not revoked, they just say they can't work in any other ATO/AQB but they can certify the inspection carried out......

 
 Reply 
 
Joe Buckley
Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 1999, 524

Joe Buckley

Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 1999
524
15:05 Jul-21-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to John at 10:20 Jul-20-2017 .

".. there is no ISO standard which will support their decision of revoking the candidates certification because of AQB's and BINDT's failure......"

John
All standards I've very read detail correct procedure to how something should be done. Actions / penalties/ Mitigation etc. to be taken in the event of non-compliance are not in the scope of any standard. People get fired , contracts cancelled etc. But that isn't in standards

As I said before BINDT were unable to find any evidence that the experience claimed was false. If they had the certificates would have been revoked.

 
 Reply 
 
Joe Buckley
Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 1999, 524

Joe Buckley

Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 1999
524
15:25 Jul-21-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Shane Feder at 15:13 Jul-19-2017 .

Shane

Maybe someone from TWI can confirm, but I doubt very much that they INDEPENDENTLY review all the information, they will check it, I'm skeptical if someone from Cambridge will check / contact / verify identity of each employer

 
 Reply 
 
Shane Feder
, Quality Co-ordinator (SubSea)
Thailand, Joined Dec 2014, 89

Shane Feder

, Quality Co-ordinator (SubSea)
Thailand,
Joined Dec 2014
89
15:47 Jul-21-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Joe Buckley at 15:25 Jul-21-2017 .

Joe,
I am sure they do not investigate any applications unless something is "red flagged"
This is an example of what is required prior to examination by CSWIP/TWI
Welding Inspector (Level 2)
Welding Inspector for a minimum of 3 years with experience related to the duties and
responsibilities listed in Clause 1.2.2 under qualified supervision, independently verified.

There is the difference - independently verified !
My CV, records of employment that were verified and signed off by my present and past employers were then sent off to Cambridge for review prior to my being able to sit the exam.

The ATO in Australia had nothing to do with my application, work history, experience or anything else.
Once TWI in Cambridge were happy with my documentation I was then authorised to sit my examination with the ATO supervising this examination.

Regards,
Shane

 
 Reply 
 
Jason
Jason
16:20 Jul-21-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Joe Buckley at 15:05 Jul-21-2017 .

As I said before BINDT were unable to find any evidence that the experience claimed was false. If they had the certificates would have been revoked

Joe,

Thank you for admitting that BINDT withdraw all certificate without basis and evidence.

As such... BINDT is behaving like a gangster.... do what they like, no rule of law, and hit people as they wish....

ISO 17924 requires a CB like BINDT to ensure that BINDT is fully and totally satisfied that each candidate has met all requirements before issue of certificate and be fully responsible for this activity and maintain sufficient records to prove this.

A MAJOR NONCOMPLIANCE.....

 
 Reply 
 
John
John
16:45 Jul-21-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Joe Buckley at 15:05 Jul-21-2017 .

"Actions / penalties/ Mitigation etc. to be taken in the event of non-compliance"

Joe,

Non compliance by whom? Did you find any non compliance by the particular candidate in 2015? In this case BINDT was unable to find the malpractice done by the candidate... Then how you can punish them for BINDT' fault (since BINDT' entrusted NDT International and approved them as AQB)

Interestingly now in BINDT's webpage under FAQ, they say now BINDT's presence will be there in the AQB for conducting reexam for the candidates... Why this decision was taken now? Hope they understood their failure... What about the new candidate undergoing PCN examination in AQB? Whether BINDT' presence will be there in AQB's, if no then again this scam will happen..... BINDT' should not Concentra on their profits they should work as a charitable society.....

 
 Reply 
 
John
John
16:50 Jul-21-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Joe Buckley at 15:05 Jul-21-2017 .

Joe,

Don't say that BINDT' has no evidence. If you insist I can make all evidence public... I am just thinking about the candidates details will be in public which may be issue for the particular candidate.....

 
 Reply 
 
Peter
NDT Inspector, NDT Manager
United Kingdom, Joined Jul 2008, 21

Peter

NDT Inspector, NDT Manager
United Kingdom,
Joined Jul 2008
21
23:14 Jul-21-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Shane Feder at 15:47 Jul-21-2017 .

Hi Shane,
You may not be aware of, and a lot of people on this thread chose to deliberately divert the attention from; The fact that NDTI manufactured evidence of experience including referees which would confirm said experience when contacted. No certification board of any sort, be it TWI or ASNT would be able to detect this fraud other than by using the undercover methods used by BINDT.

 
 Reply 
 
Joe Buckley
Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 1999, 524

Joe Buckley

Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 1999
524
23:45 Jul-21-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to John at 16:50 Jul-21-2017 .

John

Ok, it is evidence in the sense that it is information submitted to an investigation, however everything appeared to check out. When contacted the referees confirmed the applicants claim. As Nicole said at the time, in the absence of anything other than your (no doubt fully justified) suspicion there was nothing further that could be done. BINDT has no authority to interrogate referees under oath. If they confirm the claim that is all anyone can do.



 
 Reply 
 
Shane Feder
, Quality Co-ordinator (SubSea)
Thailand, Joined Dec 2014, 89

Shane Feder

, Quality Co-ordinator (SubSea)
Thailand,
Joined Dec 2014
89
01:06 Jul-22-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Peter at 23:14 Jul-21-2017 .

Thank you for the clarification Peter.

I feel sorry for all the innocent people involved and can understand their frustration.
If I had my certificate revoked due to circumstances beyond my control I would be raising merry hell !

 
 Reply 
 
Shane Feder
, Quality Co-ordinator (SubSea)
Thailand, Joined Dec 2014, 89

Shane Feder

, Quality Co-ordinator (SubSea)
Thailand,
Joined Dec 2014
89
02:43 Jul-22-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Shane Feder at 01:06 Jul-22-2017 .

Just a query - if there was widespread cheating going on one would presume a much higher than normal pass rate.
This did not set off any alarm bells with BINDT or PCN ?

 
 Reply 
 
Jason
Jason
04:24 Jul-22-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Joe Buckley at 23:45 Jul-21-2017 .

Joe,

I like your saying "appear to check out". That means to me that you cannot say for sure.

I like you using the word "interrogate". If a professional questions, it can be sharp, in depth, precise and still be very polite and respectful. You need not "interrogate" to get answers. If a novice try the same line of questioning, it can be interrogating.

At the point of appointment as a certification manager, what are Nicole's credentials? Let me list a few that is professionally mandatory.

1. Certified NDT Level III for a few years
2. A few years experience in NDT field work
3. A registered QMS Lead Auditor for a few years
4. A degree holder
5. Investigation skills
6. Auditor for PCN or similar scheme for a few years
7. Been in certification and education/training work for a few years

How many boxes did she check on these criteria to manage a GOBAL certification scheme from GREAT BRITAIN?

In my professional opinion, she should have found the loopholes easily. Let me teach you & BINDT a few things here.

A. I would call and be very polite and nice but ask very specific questions like: Products in their company, code used, scanning procedure undertaken, work done by candidate, since PCN requires a qualified NDT person to be the referee, all these are fair questions. Ask it in non interrogative manner but still in open manner to fish out the questions. For sure you will get answers.

As a lady, its even easier as a lady's voice is always sweeter and man loves to talk to a sweet sounding lady. They will melt more than feeling interrogated. If Nicole does not check those mandatory boxes of NDT Level III, field experience, auditor etc, she will not be able to ask and understand these questions and answers and will not be able to verify. As a professional consultant, we have done that before and it works very well.

If there is refusal to these generic questions from reference or claim not obliged, I will call the candidate up and them him that this reference cannot provide verification of his experience and ask him to get another one. - Rejected

If there is "no answer", you have just hit the nail right on the spot - Reject

B. If I get all beautiful answers, I will call the candidate immediately and cross check. This is where the answers things become interesting and clear. I will not dwell on the details and approach methodology. Its easily understood if you are a professional.

So its easy peasy for all those that checked all seven credentials professionally but will NEVER get done by novice. But I personally doubt that is the case for BINDT and Nicole.

I am sorry, a signed paper by referee is only a oath to a referee that has no consequence. You and I know that. So do not say "nothing" can be done. Its such a cheap excuse and again a DOUBLE STANDARD excuse. If BINDT accepts this oath with "nothing else can be done" with no evidence, BINDT has NO EVIDENCE on all certificate holders themselves cheating/fraud, whom also sign under oath and yet they are withdrawing all certification. Why did this reason not apply?

Poor quality and ineffective CB gives rise to poor quality and ineffective AQB and ATO and that resulted in poor quality certificate holders.

Lets close this case by closing down PCN scheme totally. BINDT should just start all over again.... seriously... please close down the PCN scheme and start all over again.

Admit it.


 
 Reply 
 
Jason
Jason
04:51 Jul-22-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Joe Buckley at 15:25 Jul-21-2017 .

By the way...Joe..

I will not pay a certification manager to ask: "Hi Mr. Raja, I am Steve from PCN. You are listed as the referee for Mr. Kumar. Did Mr. Kumar work under you doing UT work from Nov 2000 to Jan 2015?"

Mr. Raja replied " Yes, he did. He is a very competent examiner doing level II quality work and we are very please with him".

PCN Manager:" Thank you very much for your verification".

Checked - Case closed

I will pay a tele-sales girls to do that.

Disclaimer: Just a friction...

 
 Reply 
 
John
John
06:16 Jul-22-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Joe Buckley at 23:45 Jul-21-2017 .

"When contacted the referees confirmed the applicants claim. As Nicole said at the time, in the absence of anything other than your (no doubt fully justified) suspicion there was nothing further that could be done. BINDT has no authority to interrogate referees under oath. If they confirm the claim that is all anyone can do"

Joe,

So you mean to say that if any blind candidates passes the PCN exam with the Employer/AQB certifying he is having good vision even then you will issue the PCN certificate? you will not investigate further than the documented proof when the justifiable document provided that he is blind? You call the referee and agree with his oath?

Its a disaster... You limited your authority to document verification even that is done by AQB if any issue is raised then you ask from AQB for the candidates documents.. then BINDT is just a agent who is not competent to take preventative action when the documents of fraud were provided. This shows how lethargic BINDT is......

Take the case of TWI were the candidate have to send the CV with all documents to them directly, once verified then only the candidate is allowed to write the exam.. its the similar case with ASNT also...

This is lessons learned for BINDT who is immature in certification industry.... who just pass on the blames only to AQB and the candidates and don't take ownership of their fault....

 
 Reply 
 
Jason
Jason
08:03 Jul-22-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to John at 06:16 Jul-22-2017 .

John,

The issue with BINDT is not just experience documentation and verification

They have issues with:

1. Auditing - They found nothing for 7 years
2. Qualifying - In 2015, they continue to qualify NDTI on more methods despite now claim they started investigation since then.
3. Records management - They did not keep records of candidates
4. Exam management - Unable to differentiate between competent and incompetent certificate holders. Never seen them appearing for one exam. Allow others to know exam questions in advanced.
5. Understanding the industry behaviour - Naively allow so many test centres to multiply
6. Unable to follow their own procedures - The should suspend NDTI on the first sight of issue coming up but waited so long.
7. Could not understand their accreditation standard properly. - The standard clearly defines who is responsible for ATO/AQB. Instead, they point at AQB/ATO and the students.
8. Make decisions not based on rule and regulations - Other than unethical practice and complaint from user of certificate holders, there is no rules and regulations to withdraw the certificate once it is issued but they did that.
.
.
.
.
and so on...

Finally, refusal to close down PCN scheme which is now causing an industrial safety and quality hazard.

 
 Reply 
 
Jason
Jason
08:20 Jul-22-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Peter at 23:14 Jul-21-2017 .

The fact is BINDT "covert operations" could get NDTI to fabricate evidence for them. Accordingly, those are the ONLY facts obtained by BINDT.

We do not know how the covert entice NDTI? Pay them 20 000 pounds to be successful? We do not know how many centres they went to. 1? 2? all? India? Overseas? BINDT is not sharing. Maybe Joe can help.

The fact is BINDT do not have any evidence with certificate holders. It is only a conclusion drawn based on "covert operations" that there are "widespread" fraud.

I believe there are fraud too. How widespread? A lot? 20%? 50%? 80? There is no evidence on that and thus it is a conclusion and that needs to be established.

BINDT should suspend NDTI and investigate to get the facts. If they have done that, which is part of the ISO 9712 and ISO 17024 scheme, things would be clear and all these discussion is not necessary. The fact is they did not do that.

But I think they will not find anything if they go in under suspension. Even with John providing specific candidate, BINDT failed to get facts.

Really shockingly incompetent.

That is why I said to Joe....please close down PCN scheme and start all over again, clean and new. Re-organize and change the whole team. It would be worse to pretend and drag on.


 
 Reply 
 
Steven Doc
Other, Quality Manager
Siemens Energy, Egypt, Joined Feb 2011, 187

Steven Doc

Other, Quality Manager
Siemens Energy,
Egypt,
Joined Feb 2011
187
08:24 Jul-22-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Jason at 08:20 Jul-22-2017 .

Any chance we could get a sub forum for Jason and his crusade to close down PCN?
We get the message, youre unhappy about losing your tickets but please change the record. The best thing you can do is change certification schemes and forget about PCN. This is from a confirmed CSWIP guy. Not a PCN ticket to my name.

 
 Reply 
 
Jason
Jason
08:27 Jul-22-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Peter at 23:14 Jul-21-2017 .

Oh....I forgot.

The fact on covert operations and evidence is a declared fact by BINDT. Not verified by anybody except BINDT and no specific detail known.

Thus, in all discussion, this fact is based on the following assumption that BINDT:

1. did a proper covert operations with honourable and competent people,
2. let no stones unturned and thorough in their work,
3. got all the evidence in sufficient quantity and quality that are clear, precise and conclusive,
4. have the evidence in verbal, visual and documented manner that are traceable, and
5. the covert guys actually passed the exams by cheating.

Yes, then we have the facts

 
 Reply 
 
Jason
Jason
08:29 Jul-22-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Steven Doc at 08:24 Jul-22-2017 .

Thank you Steven.

But I will not accept your gift.

 
 Reply 
 
doug wyile
Australia, Joined Jun 2017, 43

doug wyile

Australia,
Joined Jun 2017
43
13:47 Jul-22-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to John at 06:16 Jul-22-2017 .

You did refer TWI on your explanation.

TWI has more than 100 candidate supplying agents in India. If any body want to become an agent they can approach TWI and fill a form and they need to prove that they are good in promoting the scheme (telling lot of lies). TWI will issue an Agent number which is unique.
In india all the agents handle the preparatory classes collecting the fees for preparatory and after the preparatory they use to issue an experience cert to the candidate. When TWI verified their experience the agent will say ÿes". Then they will send the candidate for the exam with TWI and the candidate will either pay TWI directly or pay through agents. TWI will pay the agent payout on monthly basis.

wonderful Multi level marketing scheme. Any student can become a marketing agent and can get the commission.
All the above agents market the PCN scheme for TWI also.

Openly IITNDT announce in the public forum that they give 100 percent PASS. TWI is more happy to see the add. DID they take any action against the organisation IITNDT???

SIS (sai Inspection services) conducts preparatory and they have all the questions papers of TWI. How they are having the question papers of TWI??? when CSWIP scheme QP's are available How can you believe TWI not selling the QP of PCN scheme????

There is an agent of TWI called Metal lab (TWG group): they are advertising that they have CSWIP ?PCN approval and collect the candidate and give it to TWI. you can go to their website and see even today. Lot of guys go to them every month and he act as an agent and collects his commission.

Like above there are 100 agents spoiling the market left and right TWI is selling the CSWIP certificates for freshers and all sitting in TWI knew about all the above facts. Do you think they dont adopt the same strategy for PCN ???

 
 Reply 
 
doug wyile
Australia, Joined Jun 2017, 43

doug wyile

Australia,
Joined Jun 2017
43
13:53 Jul-22-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Jason at 04:24 Jul-22-2017 .

Good ones

I strongly agree

 
 Reply 
 
Rolf Diederichs
Director,
NDT.net, Germany, Joined Nov 1998, 608

Rolf Diederichs

Director,
NDT.net,
Germany,
Joined Nov 1998
608
17:59 Jul-22-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Jason at 08:29 Jul-22-2017 .

Steven Doc is right, you repeat yourself too often and if you have something new regarding BINDT/NDTI, please post it to the right thread at: NDT International / BINDT http://www.ndt.net/forum/thread.php?rootID=68177

 
 Reply 
 
Jason
Jason
02:22 Jul-23-2017
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Rolf Diederichs at 17:59 Jul-22-2017 .

Ok Rolf... you are the "boss" here... since you do not like it, l leave...

Subjects in both forum are similar and inter linked.

 
 Reply 
 
sharoane corbett
sharoane corbett
22:24 Sep-27-2019
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to John at 12:10 Aug-26-2015 (Opening).

Actually I have just read Johns discussion, and I absolutely agree with him. My husband has spent 10 years disclosures on record, in relation to an employed sub contractor to a client who has been signing off hundreds and I mean hundreds of Fake Inspections for work that had NOT been inspected. The company protected their subby for the client, cant lose the contract so endorsed Inspections with UKAS stamp knowing what had been disclosed. Bindt only have to look on the gov website, Global Money Talks and can close people down. However the Inspectors words " I wont be around" when confronted about his dodgey Inspections, will haunt me until every last penny and breath in my body this man and this company do not carry on ignoring they have endorsed Inspections on Manufactured Steel structures/components the list is endless across the world. Very similar to KOBE, nobody wants to listen? Inspectors lack and consider for Inspections is despicable, not only did this stop any trainees that visited the site, take onboard experience, they never produced any inspections for their own work? I think BINDT & UKAS ought to open the world to whistleblowing, this is serious in the NDT trust me!

 
 Reply 
 
William
William
01:30 Oct-02-2019
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to sharoane corbett at 22:24 Sep-27-2019 .

You are right. But PCN approach is wrong.

1. They went on a blanket withdrawal. So those real and fake were both hit.

2. They allow to retake exams. the problem is about fake experience and not about exam cheating. So it does not address the problem at all.

3. Only the candidates are targeted. NDTI has made their money. Did the instructors and owners get their PCN revoked? What responsibilities and punishment should BINDT get for this?

So I am too against faking but not the way BINDT handles it.

Let me remind that it is required that owners/manufacturers of the equipment qualify the "certified" personnel for the job. So if this is not done, there is a shared responsibility and they too can make a compliant. But most of they happily use them because they are cheap and unwilling to pay for quality NDT examiners.

So along the line, we have to look into the whole problem in the NDT industry. BINDT only hit the lowest level group and in a wrong manner. That is the problem.

 
 Reply 
 
William
William
06:36 Oct-02-2019
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to Steven Doc at 12:39 Dec-22-2015 .

I fully agree with you. That is another aspect of this sick industry. Everybody wants it cheap, fast and produce documentation to cover up.

Fake experience, fake inspection, fake witnessing, and all cheapest inspectors. The industry is getting sick. Believe me, I am in this business and I hate it that my value and quality of work is being taken for a ride and made valueless.

BINDT and UKAST will not and will not be able to do anything. If they are checking on each and every candidate in detail, what happen to NDTI would not have taken place for 7 years. But that would be "costly", which means, its also about being cheap and more profit.3

Fabricators are also doing it because work have to be quoted cheap. Owners also wants it cheapest even if the costing is not reasonable.

There goes the vicious cycle. I honestly wish something can be done both in the NDT and inspection industry.

 
 Reply 
 
THEO MICOTTIS
Italy, Joined May 2013, 77

THEO MICOTTIS

Italy,
Joined May 2013
77
11:10 Oct-05-2019
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to William at 06:36 Oct-02-2019 .

Dear William, sorry to read that this is a worldwide problem. I optimistically hoped that it was just an italian way of made business. I call it business as I still believe that work is a serious thing, not just money related. Regards Theo

 
 Reply 
 
Shalome Pickard
Shalome Pickard
18:18 Oct-06-2019
Re: PCN certification gained by giving fake experience
In Reply to John at 12:10 Aug-26-2015 (Opening).

I agree BINDT have been doing some very serious investigations, I must give credit for this, however whilst I agree BINDT have very stringent procedures, lets face it, BINDT should to be honest.

These Technicians, Inspectors, Welders etc....... are the first point of contact in keeping the general public safe from Defects that Could cost thousands of Lives, that's without the huge Industries of NDT, not really known to the general public.

Lets face it ask the General Public, I would suggest a viral survey!!

Lets generalise, ask a member of the public, Do you think the NDT was performed? when you walked up that fancy steel staircase, or over that nice new structure? They would now what you talking about its ignorance, I asked 30 people randomly, NOT one? Is'nt that sad people don't know if they are safe or NOT

BINDT struggles with old long standing companies, who have their own methods of Inspection? BINDT cannot control this wrong practice, unless it is reported, which young technicians today fall prey to in training. Old company methods, wrong practices with bad Inspectors who abuse their certification for easy money?? I wish BINDT blessings in keeping the world safe with training, structures and Certification, However you cannot protect the public when BAD Inspectors still exist? How would BINDT have any knowledge of Inspectors, Technicians..... in the game decades participate in wrong practices? Sadly it goes on? BINDT is not the ROOT, of a persons integrity, Certification is just the root to MONEY, for them of old.

 
 Reply 
 

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