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- since 1996 -
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Technical Discussions
miskol
Student,
Universiti Teknologi Malaysia, Malaysia, Joined Sep 2012, 5

miskol

Student,
Universiti Teknologi Malaysia,
Malaysia,
Joined Sep 2012
5
04:30 Sep-18-2012
Steel penetration using ultrasonic

Hi guys,

1) my objective is to transmit ultrasonic pulses through a steel pipe, which will then navigate through the process material (liquid) inside the pipe. it will continue to propagate through steel boundaries at the other end and finally the ultrasound signal will then be captured by an ultrasonic receiver.

it must be noted that the sensors is located at the external of the pipes.

we have done research using ultrasonic sensors for investigating process material inside acrylic pipe, its successful (40 kHz and 333 kHz sensor). currently we are looking for a suitable ultrasonic sensor for steel pipe.


2) there are many ultrasonic transceivers that have a "Matching Layer" used to construct a suitable impedance matching layer with air, which makes it works great in air. we have used those sensors for acrylic pipe, however for steel pipe we found that it is theoretically more complicated to be done based on the same sensor(with air-matching layer).

will the solution be that to have a custom-ordered ultrasonic sensor with approximate Matching Layer that have an impedance matching characteristic for steel pipe.

Please advise, thank you.

 
 Reply 
 
John
John
04:55 Sep-18-2012
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to miskol at 04:30 Sep-18-2012 (Opening).

These devices as described are used as flow/volume measuring tools on gas lines. Basically thru-transmission. The amount of flow will move the sound column x distance downstream, that is measured to give rate of flow.

 
 Reply 
 
miskol
Student,
Universiti Teknologi Malaysia, Malaysia, Joined Sep 2012, 5

miskol

Student,
Universiti Teknologi Malaysia,
Malaysia,
Joined Sep 2012
5
06:17 Sep-18-2012
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to John at 04:55 Sep-18-2012 .

Yes, we used ultrasonic transmission mode.

Please advice suitable sensors that can be used for steel pipes?

 
 Reply 
 
Wieslaw Bicz
Engineering,
PBP Optel sp. z o.o., Poland, Joined Feb 2009, 268

Wieslaw Bicz

Engineering,
PBP Optel sp. z o.o.,
Poland,
Joined Feb 2009
268
14:46 Sep-18-2012
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to miskol at 04:30 Sep-18-2012 (Opening).

Any sensor, that is made for contact measurements will be suitable. It is difficult to tell, what will be the best choice, until you haven't disclosed your needs (what do you want to measure, which frequency). I a simple case a piece of piezoceramics glued to the pipe will be sufficient.

We have made many such special transducers with different frequencies and for temperatures up to about 250°C, that are glued to pipes and could offer you suitable product.

 
 Reply 
 
miskol
Student,
Universiti Teknologi Malaysia, Malaysia, Joined Sep 2012, 5

miskol

Student,
Universiti Teknologi Malaysia,
Malaysia,
Joined Sep 2012
5
00:29 Sep-19-2012
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to Wieslaw Bicz at 14:46 Sep-18-2012 .

Hi,

1) i want to use ultrasonic sensors.

2) on previous research, we are able to use 15V for succesful detection of gas bubbles inside an acrylic pipe filled with water. The sensor we used have 333 kHz operating frequency with a size of 9mm.

3) so for research on steel pipe:
- 15V to 50V operating voltage.
- 333 kHz to 1 MHz frequency.
- small sized (around 9mm diameter).

Please advise, thank you.

 
 Reply 
 
miskol
Student,
Universiti Teknologi Malaysia, Malaysia, Joined Sep 2012, 5

miskol

Student,
Universiti Teknologi Malaysia,
Malaysia,
Joined Sep 2012
5
10:01 Sep-24-2012
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to miskol at 00:29 Sep-19-2012 .

Hi,

Can anyone help me regarding this matter? There's not many manufacturer that i've contacted is able to produce such custom transducer as i've mentioned...

 
 Reply 
 
S V Swamy
Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex , India, Joined Feb 2001, 787

S V Swamy

Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex ,
India,
Joined Feb 2001
787
15:57 Apr-01-2013
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to miskol at 10:01 Sep-24-2012 .

Instead of asking for custom built transducers, why not try commercially available transducers? You have not mentioned the diameter of the steel pipe. For smaller diameter pipes you would need to use smaller diameter probes that too with suitable perspex (acrylic) adopters to match the curvature of the pipe. Use any commercially available couplant gel. If you are clearer about your own requirements, you would need to do less experimentation.

Best wishes

Swamy

 
 Reply 
 
miskol
Student,
Universiti Teknologi Malaysia, Malaysia, Joined Sep 2012, 5

miskol

Student,
Universiti Teknologi Malaysia,
Malaysia,
Joined Sep 2012
5
19:28 Apr-01-2013
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to S V Swamy at 15:57 Apr-01-2013 .

Hi,

i've tried to find commercial-ready transducers,but as far as i'm concerned, my search are unsuccessful.

for your information, the measurement for my investigated steel pipe are:
external diameter = 102.28 mm
internal diameter = 86 mm
pipe’s wall thickness = 8.14 mm

Thank you.

 
 Reply 
 
Ed Ginzel
R & D, -
Materials Research Institute, Canada, Joined Nov 1998, 1286

Ed Ginzel

R & D, -
Materials Research Institute,
Canada,
Joined Nov 1998
1286
21:11 Apr-01-2013
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to miskol at 19:28 Apr-01-2013 .

Miskol, as Mr. Bicz stated, most any off-the shelf probe should be adequate. We used a small 12mm diameter 2.25MHz contact probe to assess the level of water in large diameter thick steel pipes. Pipes were 500mm diameter outside diameter and had a 25mm thick wall. The amount of time range required to see the opposite wall was very large (nearly 700µs) becasue we used pulse-echo mode. The entry region was filled with many multiples of the steel wall thickness. But we could easily see the level of water (and the opposite side of the pipe when the pipe was filled with water). You are apparently using a through transmission setup so the travel time will be shorter and your diameter and wall thickness are very small. Unless the liquid is VERY attenuative the pulse should be easily transmitted across the 86mm diameter. But the operating voltage you are using seems VERY low.

 
 Reply 
 
SARAVANA PRASHANTH M
SARAVANA PRASHANTH M
12:41 Feb-16-2014
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to Ed Ginzel at 21:11 Apr-01-2013 .

sir, i am doing my final engineering project on plc based flow monitoring in underwater pipelines for oil and gas sector and i have question for you sir

1.i am trying to use non contact type ultrasonic range detector sensor for measuring flow in the pipeline without any physical contact of the sensor and i am using an underwater vehicle to make the sensor near to the pipeline so is that possible for ultrasonic to penetrate inside an steel pipeline underwater.??????please do reply me sir.

 
 Reply 
 
S V Swamy
Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex , India, Joined Feb 2001, 787

S V Swamy

Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex ,
India,
Joined Feb 2001
787
14:48 Feb-16-2014
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to SARAVANA PRASHANTH M at 12:41 Feb-16-2014 .

Yes, ultrasonic waves can propagate through steel, water etc. - however from your description, I am not able to get the clear picture about the position of the ultrasonic transducer with respect to the pipe. Is the transducer inside the pipe or outside? If you share more details, I can advise you better.

Swamy

 
 Reply 
 
SARAVANA PRASHANTH M
SARAVANA PRASHANTH M
12:50 Feb-17-2014
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to S V Swamy at 14:48 Feb-16-2014 .

ultrasonic is placed in the underwater vehicle which will travel along the pipeline does it possible for the sensor to detect the flow inside the pipeline

 
 Reply 
 
John
John
13:39 Feb-17-2014
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to SARAVANA PRASHANTH M at 12:50 Feb-17-2014 .

Saravana,
1) if this is topic of your project shouldn't you know more about it?
2) it's your project
3) google your non contact ultrasonic flow meter
You will find what is available, if you don't see it in a catalog, it probably isn't done or is in the section with X-ray glasses
Anything powerful enough to go through the water (at unknown distance) through a coated pipe and a distance of the product without any contact or aiming will not be sensitive enough to measure flow.

 
 Reply 
 
Frank Lund
R & D,
United Kingdom, Joined Apr 2005, 222

Frank Lund

R & D,
United Kingdom,
Joined Apr 2005
222
18:55 Feb-17-2014
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to John at 13:39 Feb-17-2014 .

Medical UT uses Doppler to see blood flow.

 
 Reply 
 
John
John
19:30 Feb-17-2014
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to Frank Lund at 18:55 Feb-17-2014 .

Yes, and there are a multitude of flow meters available, but are typically mounted in o-lets at a set distance or are OD "mounted" pulse echo. But all are contact. I'm sure an immersion tech would be able to tell you if it were possible to put a T/R probe in the water at a random distance and non exact angle of incidence from "pipe", then measure the distance across pipe and fluid, then reflecting back to a "suspended" probe in the water that may not be in the exact same place as when transmitted, and having. Enough signal strength left to measure the flow. its hard to get signals sometimes from a tandem setup with contact sometimes (ie transfer correction in UT).
So in short I'm not saying flow measurement can't be done, because it is already, but I can't visualize doing underwater ROV mounted non-contact (immersion UT) flow measurements to any accuracy that someone would sign their name to on a report. Please someone let me know how wrong I am as I don't typically work with full immersion.

 
 Reply 
 
SARAVANA PRASHANTH M
SARAVANA PRASHANTH M
19:55 Feb-17-2014
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to John at 19:30 Feb-17-2014 .

this the problem i am in,i used ultrasonic range sensor for measuring the flow but couldn't able to get it as accurate as i can as i used ROV for following the pipeline underwater all along it's path and continuously getting the flow signals inside the pipeline as the ROV moves adjacent to both the sides of the pipeline in an non contact type manner,please anyone help me out with it because i am working to make a working model of it as i have finished my ROV which is ready to move underwater.......please help me out.......

 
 Reply 
 
Gerald R. Reams
Engineering,
Industry, USA, Joined Aug 2012, 181

Gerald R. Reams

Engineering,
Industry,
USA,
Joined Aug 2012
181
20:03 Feb-17-2014
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to Frank Lund at 18:55 Feb-17-2014 .

Tissue is mostly liquid and not as scattering as metal plus the distances involved with blood flow are small in comparison.


Regards,
Gerald

 
 Reply 
 
S V Swamy
Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex , India, Joined Feb 2001, 787

S V Swamy

Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex ,
India,
Joined Feb 2001
787
21:20 Feb-17-2014
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to SARAVANA PRASHANTH M at 19:55 Feb-17-2014 .

May be you can mount two or more probes on the same ROV and see whether the liquid flow affects the amplitude and time of travel of a sound pulse between the probes. You can do that in a lab set up with different flow rates and different amounts of suspended particulate matter in the liquid - in short try to calibrate the set up before actually mounting the probes on the ROV.

Good luck to you in your project.

Swamy

 
 Reply 
 
Frank Lund
R & D,
United Kingdom, Joined Apr 2005, 222

Frank Lund

R & D,
United Kingdom,
Joined Apr 2005
222
23:55 Feb-17-2014
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to SARAVANA PRASHANTH M at 12:41 Feb-16-2014 .

You write that you are using a "range detector". Are you trying to measure range from the ROV-mounted Tx/Rx to moving dicontinuities in the fluid?

Are you getting any velocity signal? Is the problem that signal from the movement of the ROV is giving you another bigger(?) "velocity" signal that is masking the signal that you want to get?

 
 Reply 
 
SARAVANA PRASHANTH M
SARAVANA PRASHANTH M
12:45 Feb-18-2014
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to S V Swamy at 21:20 Feb-17-2014 .

Thank you sir but the problem is i am using non contact type sensor i.e without any physical contact with the pipeline and i am using ultrasonic range sensor for flow detection..

 
 Reply 
 
saravana prashanth
saravana prashanth
09:01 Mar-02-2014
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to miskol at 04:30 Sep-18-2012 (Opening).

FOR PENETRATION INTO STEEL OR A PVC FOR MEASURING FLOW INSIDE THE PIPE WHAT KIND OF NON CONTACT TYPE SENSOR IS USED.

 
 Reply 
 
SARAVANA PRASHANTH M
SARAVANA PRASHANTH M
07:00 Mar-20-2014
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to miskol at 04:30 Sep-18-2012 (Opening).

miskol,

1) Can please guide me how to investigate ultrasonic sensor to penetrate acrylic pipe and what type of sensor did you use.

2)i am at present growing on the same research area in what your doin it but i cannot able to penetrate through acrylic pipe either.

CAN YOU PLEASE HELP ME

 
 Reply 
 
SARAVANA PRASHANTH M
SARAVANA PRASHANTH M
07:11 Mar-20-2014
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to Frank Lund at 23:55 Feb-17-2014 .

no sir not exactly.

1)ultrasonic range sensor can emit 40khz frequency so i am trying with it whether it can able to penetrate acrylic pipes but it failed it's not working and i need an alternate for it sir and i searched allot for this i couldn't.

 
 Reply 
 
wieslaw bicz
Engineering,
PBP Optel sp. z o.o., Poland, Joined Feb 2009, 268

wieslaw bicz

Engineering,
PBP Optel sp. z o.o.,
Poland,
Joined Feb 2009
268
14:30 Mar-20-2014
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to SARAVANA PRASHANTH M at 07:11 Mar-20-2014 .

If you are using ultrasonic range sensor working in the air, there is no chance to penetrate solid state or fluid with the sound generated by this device. It is possible with air ultrasound, but requires much larger signal strength and very sensitive receiver.

 
 Reply 
 
Usman
Calgary, Joined Oct 2016, 1

Usman

Calgary,
Joined Oct 2016
1
05:31 Oct-30-2016
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to wieslaw bicz at 14:30 Mar-20-2014 .

Hi Sir,

Is it possible to transmit ultrasonic waves from inside a liquid pressurized vessel and receive these signals on the outside wall of the vessel. Lets say the vessel dia is 2 m and the ultrasonic emitting device is enclosed in a small steel vessel inside the pressure vessel. The emitter has its own power supply.

Most of the ultrasonic sensors are like range detectors. Is it possible to have only ultrasonic emitter and an ultrasonic receiver.

Thanks

 
 Reply 
 
Wieslaw Bicz
Engineering,
PBP Optel sp. z o.o., Poland, Joined Feb 2009, 268

Wieslaw Bicz

Engineering,
PBP Optel sp. z o.o.,
Poland,
Joined Feb 2009
268
17:57 Nov-02-2016
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to Usman at 05:31 Oct-30-2016 .

It is possible. It is quite easy, if you will receive the sound with contact transducer. It would be also possible with a receiver placed in the air close to the vessel, but much more difficult, since the signal will be very weak. Special equipment and sophisticated signal analysis could be necessary.

 
 Reply 
 
prokash
prokash
07:55 Mar-31-2018
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to miskol at 04:30 Sep-18-2012 (Opening).

Hi sir,
can ultrasound penetrate through steel cylinder from outside of the cylinder and can the transmission be received on the other end? if yes, which type of ultrasound should i use?

 
 Reply 
 
S V Swamy
Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex , India, Joined Feb 2001, 787

S V Swamy

Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex ,
India,
Joined Feb 2001
787
08:02 Mar-31-2018
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to prokash at 07:55 Mar-31-2018 .

Which type of ultrasound? Longitudinal waves of course. As for the frequency, it depends on the thickness of the cylinder, the liquid inside etc.

If you are thinking of using a set up for gas filled cylinders, you would need to use low frequency ultrasonic waves (around 40 KHz).

If you have a cylinder that is evacuated, this approach of sending in ultrasonic waves and receiving them through the opp. wall of the cylinder will not work, because sound waves need a medium to travel.

What is your application?

 
 Reply 
 
prokash
prokash
08:21 Mar-31-2018
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to S V Swamy at 08:02 Mar-31-2018 .

Thanks sir,
i want to measure lpg level inside the cylinder . diameter if the cylinder is around 320mm.

 
 Reply 
 
S V Swamy
Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex , India, Joined Feb 2001, 787

S V Swamy

Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex ,
India,
Joined Feb 2001
787
11:56 Mar-31-2018
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to prokash at 08:21 Mar-31-2018 .

Are you talking of the domestic lpg cylinder? And, is this a student project or is there some other application in mind? Asking because, there are other ways of estimating the amount of lpg left in the cylinder, weighing the cylinder being one of the simplest.

 
 Reply 
 
prokash
prokash
12:38 Mar-31-2018
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to S V Swamy at 11:56 Mar-31-2018 .

Respected sir, this is my project and i want to make such device for domestic use. I thought of weighing the domestic lpg cylinder. but i want little more scientific approach to address this . Would you please suggest me the other ways of measuring the amount of lpg left in the cylinder.

 
 Reply 
 
S V Swamy
Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex , India, Joined Feb 2001, 787

S V Swamy

Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex ,
India,
Joined Feb 2001
787
13:57 Mar-31-2018
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to prokash at 12:38 Mar-31-2018 .

You could use a simple pulse echo set up and check for the difference in back echo height when the probe moves from the steel - gas interface to steel - liquid interface...You could take a half empty cylinder (easily confirmed by weighing the cylinder).

By the way, how a more complicated method like using ultrasound is more scientific than a simpler method of weighing the cylinder is beyond my limited scientific comprehension.

Best wishes

An old out of touch with the present time scientist

1
 
 Reply 
 
arooj
arooj
08:35 Aug-29-2018
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to S V Swamy at 13:57 Mar-31-2018 .

Sir I am working on the same type of project.my requirement is that i have to measure the water flow inside pipe(it may be plastic or metal) , I have to make my product NDT means i can only mount ultrasonic sensors onto the pipe not inside the pipe.I have to make clamp on meter. I know meters are available for that but my project is to make it myself for project use. Sir i have searched alot but am not sure these clamp on ultrasonic transducer will operate on which frequency? should be it in Khz range or Mhz range. and if I am using clamp on method then should I consider the pipe thickness and diameter etc..?

 
 Reply 
 
SHANTANI SINHA
Solinas Integrity Pvt ltd, India, Joined Sep 2019, 1

SHANTANI SINHA

Solinas Integrity Pvt ltd,
India,
Joined Sep 2019
1
10:58 Sep-23-2019
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to miskol at 04:30 Sep-18-2012 (Opening).

I am performing NDT experiments . Can you please tell me the name of ultrasonic sensor that can even penetrate in Carbon steel pipeline that is 8mm thick?

 
 Reply 
 
ABHISHEK
ABHISHEK
07:27 Jan-16-2020
Re: Steel penetration using ultrasonic
In Reply to arooj at 08:35 Aug-29-2018 .

I am also searching regarding this , if you find and solution please contact me chouhanabhishek365@gmail.com

 
 Reply 
 

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