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Technical Discussions
rakomina
PSTU, Ukraine, Joined Mar 2020, 3

rakomina

PSTU,
Ukraine,
Joined Mar 2020
3
19:44 Mar-26-2020
nature of the discontinuity

Good afternoon! Please help, the authorities gave a difficult task.
In our lab there are 4 types of controls: ultrasound, capillary, magnet and vortex.
But not one of these types of controls indicates the nature of the discontinuity inside the base metal.
So the authorities say that there are such types of control that can tell about the nature of the discontinuity, my colleagues and I heard about radiation control methods, but we are categorically against any kind of exposure, so they do not suit us.
Tell me, please, are there any control methods or some modern universal equipment that would indicate the nature of the discontinuities of the base metal, was harmless to humans and preferably portable?

 
 Reply 
 
Ian Atkinson
Ian Atkinson
00:02 Mar-27-2020
Re: nature of the discontinuity
In Reply to rakomina at 19:44 Mar-26-2020 (Opening).

Rakomina

It will be nearly impossible for anyone to offer useful solutions to your problem unless you provide more detail about what you are trying to achieve.

What is the metal that you wish to inspect?
What discontinuities do you wish to detect or characterise?
What is the shape and size of the part to be inspected?

The small amount of information you have given only raises questions.

For example:
Why is ultrasound not suitable for your inspection? It is widely used to characterise discontinuities inside metals. So is the material you wish to test very attenuating, or very thick or awkwardly shaped?

Why are you "categorically against" using radiographic methods? Radiography is widely and safely used to detect and characterise defects inside metals, so is there something about your inspection requirement that makes the normal safety measures impractical?

The more information you provide, the more likely it is that someone will be able to give you helpful guidance.

Regards

Ian

 
 Reply 
 
Michel Couture
NDT Inspector,
consultant, Canada, Joined Sep 2006, 888

Michel Couture

NDT Inspector,
consultant,
Canada,
Joined Sep 2006
888
01:53 Mar-27-2020
Re: nature of the discontinuity
In Reply to Ian Atkinson at 00:02 Mar-27-2020 .

Rakomina,

Just to add my two cents worth to what Ian wrote; the type of indications will depends on the processes that material went through. I would suggest to get a copy of the book "Material and Processes for NDT". This will help you greatly in your work.

 
 Reply 
 
Bruno Zilli
Engineering, Ndt
Italy, Joined Apr 2018, 15

Bruno Zilli

Engineering, Ndt
Italy,
Joined Apr 2018
15
09:12 Mar-27-2020
Re: nature of the discontinuity
In Reply to Michel Couture at 01:53 Mar-27-2020 .

EN-16827
EN-23279 for weldings

Hello colleagues,

I agree completely with you. I would suggest the norms above for the ukranian colleague. Give it a search on scribd.

 
 Reply 
 
rakomina
PSTU, Ukraine, Joined Mar 2020, 3

rakomina

PSTU,
Ukraine,
Joined Mar 2020
3
09:00 Mar-28-2020
Re: nature of the discontinuity
In Reply to Ian Atkinson at 00:02 Mar-27-2020 .

Thanks for clarifying.

The studied metal is ordinary ferromagnetic steel.
We want to know what geometric shape the defects in the metal have (acute-angled or rounded), and what kind of defect itself (empty or solid).

The object under investigation has the shape of a regular cylinder; these are rollers with a diameter of 150 mm to 400 mm and a length of 400 mm or more.

Ultrasound cannot answer the question of what form we have a defect.

We are against radiography because we do not want to be exposed. We do not have a culture of safe work.

 
 Reply 
 
rakomina
PSTU, Ukraine, Joined Mar 2020, 3

rakomina

PSTU,
Ukraine,
Joined Mar 2020
3
09:06 Mar-28-2020
Re: nature of the discontinuity
In Reply to Michel Couture at 01:53 Mar-27-2020 .

thank you very much very cool book

 
 Reply 
 
Joe Buckley
Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 1999, 528

Joe Buckley

Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 1999
528
13:21 Mar-28-2020
Re: nature of the discontinuity
In Reply to rakomina at 09:00 Mar-28-2020 .

I think you need to look more carefully at why you think ultrasound is unsuitable. There are many ultrasound techniques and one of them is likely to be your best answer.

Radiography on a solid 400mm diameter steel cylinder would require very high energy and/ or a long exposure, and would certainly not be simple, so I think your caution is probably well advised.

Does the inspection need to be done in situ?

 
 Reply 
 
Bruno Zilli
Engineering, Ndt
Italy, Joined Apr 2018, 15

Bruno Zilli

Engineering, Ndt
Italy,
Joined Apr 2018
15
17:29 Mar-28-2020
Re: nature of the discontinuity
In Reply to Joe Buckley at 13:21 Mar-28-2020 .

Hello colleagues,

I agree, 400 mm roll shaped rt is complicate: scattering and build up for first. It will be very difficult to ensure on the film small details of the component. Second most probably it needs an accelerator linac ecc. So you will collimate a lot, high number of films etc..
Ut
If the surface of your rolls is scrambled you can use a gel couplant.
Please, if my question is worth an answer, why do you think ut unenforceable?

 
 Reply 
 
Godfrey Hands
Consultant,
PRI Nadcap, United Kingdom, Joined Nov 1998, 305

Godfrey Hands

Consultant,
PRI Nadcap,
United Kingdom,
Joined Nov 1998
305
09:15 Mar-30-2020
Re: nature of the discontinuity
In Reply to rakomina at 09:00 Mar-28-2020 .

Rakomina,
Are these solid rollers or hollow? If hollow, what is the range of wall thicknesses?
You say length of 400 mm or more. What is the longest and shortest roller?
Are you able to say what the application is?

Godfrey

 
 Reply 
 
ezio
Other, Retired ex Laboratory Technical Manager
OMECO Research Centre, Italy, Joined Sep 2008, 276

ezio

Other, Retired ex Laboratory Technical Manager
OMECO Research Centre,
Italy,
Joined Sep 2008
276
11:35 Mar-30-2020
Re: nature of the discontinuity
In Reply to rakomina at 19:44 Mar-26-2020 (Opening).

buongiorno a tutti, per lungo tempo non ho partecipato a discussioni, limitandomi a leggere gli interventi per me più interessanti. In questo caso mi pare si tocchino i fondamentali delle CND, il cui scopo è evidenziare i difetti ma soprattutto valutarne la pericolosità in funzione dell'impiego. Da questo punto di vista la dimensione del difetto è solo una, e neanche la più importante, delle caratteristiche. Caratteristica molto importante invece, come giustamente evidenziato nel titolo del post, è la natura del difetto. Qui entra in gioco il metallurgista, come giustamente osservato in alcune risposte. Secondo me rakomina dovrebbe fornire un lay out della fabbricazione del pezzo a partire dal materiale di partenza, analisi chimica e metodo di fabbricazione e successive lavorazioni a caldo ed a freddo. Solo così, con buona approssimazione, sarà possibile, dalla posizione nel manufatto verificata con UT, risalire alla natura del difetto, da verificare poi, se necessario e possibile, mediante indagine locale distruttiva (carotatura). Spero che google possa aiutare a capire il mio intervento anche a chi non conosce l'italiano. grazie.

1
 
 Reply 
 
Rolf
Director,
NDT.net, Germany, Joined Nov 1998, 616

Rolf

Director,
NDT.net,
Germany,
Joined Nov 1998
616
13:27 Mar-30-2020
Re: nature of the discontinuity
In Reply to ezio at 11:35 Mar-30-2020 .

Thank you Ezio, indeed the Google translation (below to German) seems to work excellent.

Re: Natur der Diskontinuität
Guten Morgen an alle, ich habe für eine lange Zeit in der Diskussion teilgenommen haben, mich auf die Begrenzung Interventionen für mich die interessanteste Lektüre. In diesem Fall scheint es mir nicht den Kern des CND berühren, die die Defekte markieren sollen und vor allem die Gefahr zu bewerten, je nach Anwendung. Aus dieser Sicht ist die Größe des Defekts nur eine, und nicht einmal die wichtigste, Eigenschaften. Ein sehr wichtiges Merkmal aber, wie zu Recht in dem Post-Titel erwähnte, ist die Art des Mangels. Hier kommt in der Metallurge, wie zu Recht von einigen Befragten zur Kenntnis genommen. Nach mir rakomina soll aus dem Ausgangsmaterial ausgehend, die chemischen Analyse und das Herstellungsverfahren und nach dem Warm- und Kaltarbeits Herstellung eines Lay-out des Werkstückes bereitzustellen. Erst dann, mit guter Näherung wird es möglich sein, aus der Position in Artefakt mit UT überprüft, gehen Sie auf die Art des Mangels zurück, dann überprüft werden, falls notwendig und möglich ist, durch destruktive lokale Untersuchung (Coring). Ich hoffe, dass Google können Sie meine Rede helfen zu verstehen, auch für diejenigen, die nicht mit dem italienischen. Danke.

 
 Reply 
 
ezio
Other, Retired ex Laboratory Technical Manager
OMECO Research Centre, Italy, Joined Sep 2008, 276

ezio

Other, Retired ex Laboratory Technical Manager
OMECO Research Centre,
Italy,
Joined Sep 2008
276
19:07 Mar-30-2020
Re: nature of the discontinuity
In Reply to Rolf at 13:27 Mar-30-2020 .

nicht ganz, Rolf, jedoch genug fuer die Substanz. Ich werde in Zukunf die Uebersetzung von Google selbst Korregieren, ob moeglich.

 
 Reply 
 
Wieslaw Bicz
Wieslaw Bicz
22:44 Mar-31-2020
Re: nature of the discontinuity
In Reply to rakomina at 19:44 Mar-26-2020 (Opening).

It is possible (but in your case surely not easy) to measure the shape and impedance (density) of defects, if you use a method, that is able to reconstruct the shape and the amplitude and phase of signal reflected by the defect.
Close to your needs is for example a method called SAFT (other manes are used too). Such methods are using the whole information contained in the wave that is scattered by the defect in different directions and based on numerical calculations are able to reconstruct the object (your defect) and its parameters.
We are developing since years applications based on ultrasonic holography, that allows to reconstruct the object in 3D. It is imaginable to apply this technique on your scanner. It requires a measuring head with few transducers and suitable signal evaluation.

 
 Reply 
 

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