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- since 1996 -

Phoenix Inspection Systems Limited
Design and manufacture ultrasonic Transducers, Scanners and Custom Solutions for NDT inspections. Innovators in NDT technology

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Technical Discussions
Muhammad Azhar Jamil
NDT Engineer
Panama, Joined May 2006, 17

Muhammad Azhar Jamil

NDT Engineer
Panama,
Joined May 2006
17
05:55 May-05-2007
Inspection of welding

Please see the questions below and reply if possible:

There was a steam leakage found in auxiliary steam line, it was suspected to have a crack at the weld toe, the line was isolated for inspection and repair. after isolated grinding started to prepare surface for rewelding. Crack was found visually at the weld toe (also suspected minor propagation into the parent metal). NDT of the adjacent parent metal prior to welding to find any further cracking is to be carried out (Note that the temperature of the metal is still high almost 100C as line was just isolated), keeping in view the high temperature, please advice

1) Is it possible to inspect (MPI or DPT) a weld joint / parent metal before repair work or not using the conventional Magnaflux products
2) Is it possible to inspect (MPI or DPT) a weld joint just after welding using the conventional Magnaflux products or not?

If not, please explain the reasons and the alternate for inspection.

Thanks for your time in advance.



    
 
 
Nigel Armstrong
Engineering, - Specialist services
United Kingdom, Joined Oct 2000, 1094

Nigel Armstrong

Engineering, - Specialist services
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 2000
1094
06:48 May-06-2007
Re: Inspection of welding
Hello Muhammed

One option is to use dry powder MPI ink as produced by Magnaflux and other NDT products manufacturers. The manufacturers data specification sheet will tell you the maximum temperature of use for the product, certainly 100 degress C will not be a problem. Application takes a liyttle more "know-how" on the part of the technician - aim for a cloud of dry particles just above the test surface rather than "dumping" particles on to the surface. There may be a slight sensitivity decrease from wet MPI products.

Regards

Nigel

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Please see the questions below and reply if possible:
: There was a steam leakage found in auxiliary steam line, it was suspected to have a crack at the weld toe, the line was isolated for inspection and repair. after isolated grinding started to prepare surface for rewelding. Crack was found visually at the weld toe (also suspected minor propagation into the parent metal). NDT of the adjacent parent metal prior to welding to find any further cracking is to be carried out (Note that the temperature of the metal is still high almost 100C as line was just isolated), keeping in view the high temperature, please advice
: 1) Is it possible to inspect (MPI or DPT) a weld joint / parent metal before repair work or not using the conventional Magnaflux products
: 2) Is it possible to inspect (MPI or DPT) a weld joint just after welding using the conventional Magnaflux products or not?
: If not, please explain the reasons and the alternate for inspection.
: Thanks for your time in advance.
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 
Muhammad Azhar Jamil
NDT Engineer
Panama, Joined May 2006, 17

Muhammad Azhar Jamil

NDT Engineer
Panama,
Joined May 2006
17
09:32 May-06-2007
Re: Inspection of welding
Dear Nigel,

Many thanks for your reply, Infact let me explain something further, you are right that the dry powder or some other consumables can used specially made for high temperature applications, but the major problem with us is the time constraint as the plant was shut down on forced outage, and to get these products will take time as we might have to import them. The magnaflux product we have available on site are WCP2, 7HF (black ink) for MPI, and SKD (Developer) and Penetrant gor DPI, on the spray cans I think the mentioned temperature limit is that we cannot use > 50C. Therefore rephrasing my question is that if someone try to use this in the case mentioned in my previous email is allowable or not or if any one has used at that temperature please share your experience.

I will add another general question regarding welding inspection, that after how many hours it is normally recommended to inspect any weld, as fas as I know we have to give some time after welding for possible hydrogen cracking.

Thanks in advance for your time


----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Hello Muhammed
: One option is to use dry powder MPI ink as produced by Magnaflux and other NDT products manufacturers. The manufacturers data specification sheet will tell you the maximum temperature of use for the product, certainly 100 degress C will not be a problem. Application takes a liyttle more "know-how" on the part of the technician - aim for a cloud of dry particles just above the test surface rather than "dumping" particles on to the surface. There may be a slight sensitivity decrease from wet MPI products.
: Regards
: Nigel
: : Please see the questions below and reply if possible:
: : There was a steam leakage found in auxiliary steam line, it was suspected to have a crack at the weld toe, the line was isolated for inspection and repair. after isolated grinding started to prepare surface for rewelding. Crack was found visually at the weld toe (also suspected minor propagation into the parent metal). NDT of the adjacent parent metal prior to welding to find any further cracking is to be carried out (Note that the temperature of the metal is still high almost 100C as line was just isolated), keeping in view the high temperature, please advice
: : 1) Is it possible to inspect (MPI or DPT) a weld joint / parent metal before repair work or not using the conventional Magnaflux products
: : 2) Is it possible to inspect (MPI or DPT) a weld joint just after welding using the conventional Magnaflux products or not?
: : If not, please explain the reasons and the alternate for inspection.
: : Thanks for your time in advance.
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 
Tom T
Tom T
09:50 May-06-2007
Re: Inspection of welding
----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Dear Nigel,
: Many thanks for your reply, Infact let me explain something further, you are right that the dry powder or some other consumables can used specially made for high temperature applications, but the major problem with us is the time constraint as the plant was shut down on forced outage, and to get these products will take time as we might have to import them. The magnaflux product we have available on site are WCP2, 7HF (black ink) for MPI, and SKD (Developer) and Penetrant gor DPI, on the spray cans I think the mentioned temperature limit is that we cannot use > 50C. Therefore rephrasing my question is that if someone try to use this in the case mentioned in my previous email is allowable or not or if any one has used at that temperature please share your experience.
: I will add another general question regarding welding inspection, that after how many hours it is normally recommended to inspect any weld, as fas as I know we have to give some time after welding for possible hydrogen cracking.
: Thanks in advance for your time
:
: : Hello Muhammed
: : One option is to use dry powder MPI ink as produced by Magnaflux and other NDT products manufacturers. The manufacturers data specification sheet will tell you the maximum temperature of use for the product, certainly 100 degress C will not be a problem. Application takes a liyttle more "know-how" on the part of the technician - aim for a cloud of dry particles just above the test surface rather than "dumping" particles on to the surface. There may be a slight sensitivity decrease from wet MPI products.
: : Regards
: : Nigel
: : : Please see the questions below and reply if possible:
: : : There was a steam leakage found in auxiliary steam line, it was suspected to have a crack at the weld toe, the line was isolated for inspection and repair. after isolated grinding started to prepare surface for rewelding. Crack was found visually at the weld toe (also suspected minor propagation into the parent metal). NDT of the adjacent parent metal prior to welding to find any further cracking is to be carried out (Note that the temperature of the metal is still high almost 100C as line was just isolated), keeping in view the high temperature, please advice
: : : 1) Is it possible to inspect (MPI or DPT) a weld joint / parent metal before repair work or not using the conventional Magnaflux products
: : : 2) Is it possible to inspect (MPI or DPT) a weld joint just after welding using the conventional Magnaflux products or not?
: : : If not, please explain the reasons and the alternate for inspection.
: : : Thanks for your time in advance.
------------ End Original Message ------------

One thing to bear in mind. The temperature limits set on MPI concumables is primarily because of the Flash Point of the liquid. It is more of a safety concern.


    
 
 
Charles Truskolasky
Test Examiner Mil-2132, Level III
Lehigh Heavy Forge, USA, Joined Jan 2007, 10

Charles Truskolasky

Test Examiner Mil-2132, Level III
Lehigh Heavy Forge,
USA,
Joined Jan 2007
10
05:42 May-07-2007
Re: Inspection of welding
----------- Start Original Message -----------
: : Dear Nigel,
: : Many thanks for your reply, Infact let me explain something further, you are right that the dry powder or some other consumables can used specially made for high temperature applications, but the major problem with us is the time constraint as the plant was shut down on forced outage, and to get these products will take time as we might have to import them. The magnaflux product we have available on site are WCP2, 7HF (black ink) for MPI, and SKD (Developer) and Penetrant gor DPI, on the spray cans I think the mentioned temperature limit is that we cannot use > 50C. Therefore rephrasing my question is that if someone try to use this in the case mentioned in my previous email is allowable or not or if any one has used at that temperature please share your experience.
: : I will add another general question regarding welding inspection, that after how many hours it is normally recommended to inspect any weld, as fas as I know we haveto give some time after welding for possible hydrogen cracking.
: : Thanks in advance for your time
: :
: : : Hello Muhammed
: : : One option is to use dry powder MPI ink as produced by Magnaflux and other NDT products manufacturers. The manufacturers data specification sheet will tell you the maximum temperature of use for the product, certainly 100 degress C will not be a problem. Application takes a liyttle more "know-how" on the part of the technician - aim for a cloud of dry particles just above the test surface rather than "dumping" particles on to the surface. There may be a slight sensitivity decrease from wet MPI products.
: : : Regards
: : : Nigel
: : : : Please see the questions below and reply if possible:
: : : : There was a steam leakage found in auxiliary steam line, it was suspected to have a crack at the weld toe, the line was isolated for inspection and repair. after isolated grinding started to prepare surface for rewelding. Crack was found visually at the weld toe (also suspected minor propagation into the parent metal). NDT of the adjacent parent metal prior to welding to find any further cracking is to be carried out (Note that the temperature of the metal is still high almost 100C as line was just isolated), keeping in view the high temperature, please advice
: : : : 1) Is it possible to inspect (MPI or DPT) a weld joint / parent metal before repair work or not using the conventional Magnaflux products
: : : : 2) Is it possible to inspect (MPI or DPT) a weld joint just after welding using the conventional Magnaflux products or not?
: : : : If not, please explain the reasons and the alternate for inspection.
: : : : Thanks for your time in advance.
: One thing to bear in mind. The temperature limits set on MPI concumables is primarily because of the Flash Point of the liquid. It is more of a safety concern.
------------ End Original Message ------------

Liquid penetrants find cracks by capllary action; when temperatures exceed the limits set by the manufacturer, the liquids evaporate, the dye is no longer moble but fills the voids. They will not bleed out; the test won't work and the resulting vapors can be toxic.
Depending on the grade of steel that was weld repaired, localized stress relieving of the material may be required. Otherwise the part may crack again from the stresses of the weld repair.




    
 
 
hassan Mujadad
hassan Mujadad
01:10 May-13-2007
Re: Inspection of welding
----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Please see the questions below and reply if possible:
: There was a steam leakage found in auxiliary steam line, it was suspected to have a crack at the weld toe, the line was isolated for inspection and repair. after isolated grinding started to prepare surface for rewelding. Crack was found visually at the weld toe (also suspected minor propagation into the parent metal). NDT of the adjacent parent metal prior to welding to find any further cracking is to be carried out (Note that the temperature of the metal is still high almost 100C as line was just isolated), keeping in view the high temperature, please advice
: 1) Is it possible to inspect (MPI or DPT) a weld joint / parent metal before repair work or not using the conventional Magnaflux products
: 2) Is it possible to inspect (MPI or DPT) a weld joint just after welding using the conventional Magnaflux products or not?
: If not, please explain the reasons and the alternate for inspection.
: Thanks for your time in advance.
------------ End Original Message ------------

from My Point of view it is impossible to use the DPT or MT Because tyey will not give response due to the will dry soon they will not penetrte therefore the developer does not work propeerly in the other yousay that particle testing the temperature which is 100 C which will be chance demagnetizing because this temperature is not temporary the particles will not collect properly to the point at this point we can utilized only RT
Thanks For tour Question
please send me like these Questions i like Typical work
Thanks Again
Hassan Mujadad


    
 
 
hassan mujadad
hassan mujadad
01:17 May-13-2007
Re: Inspection of welding
----------- Start Original Message -----------
: : : Dear Nigel,
: : : Many thanks for your reply, Infact let me explain something further, you are right that the dry powder or some other consumables can used specially made for high temperature applications, but the major problem with us is the time constraint as the plant was shut down on forced outage, and to get these products will take time as we might have to import them. The magnaflux product we have available on site are WCP2, 7HF (black ink) for MPI, and SKD (Developer) and Penetrant gor DPI, on the spray cans I think the mentioned temperature limit is that we cannot use > 50C. Therefore rephrasing my question is that if someone try to use this in the case mentioned in my previous email is allowable or not or if any one has used at that temperature please share your experience.
: : : I will add another general question regarding welding inspection, that after how many hours it is normally recommended to inspect any weld, as fas as I know we have to give some time after welding for possible hydrogen cracking.
: : : Thanks in advance for your time
: : :
: : : : Hello Muhammed
: : : : One option is to use dry powder MPI ink as produced by Magnaflux and other NDT products manufacturers. The manufacturers data specification sheet will tell you the maximum temperature of use for the product, certainly 100 degress C will not be a problem. Application takes a liyttle more "know-how" on the part of the technician - aim for a cloud of dry particles just above the test surface rather than "dumping" particles on to the surface. There may be a slight sensitivity decrease from wet MPI products.
: : : : Regards
: : : : Nigel
: : : : : Please see the questions below and reply if possible:
: : : : : There was a steam leakage found in auxiliary steam line, it was suspected to have a crack at the weld toe, the line was isolated for inspection and repair. after isolated grinding started to prepare surface for rewelding. Crack was found visually at the weld toe (also suspected minor propagation into the parent metal). NDT of the adjacent parent metal prior to welding to find any further cracking is to be carried out (Note that the temperature of the metal is still high almost 100C as line was just isolated), keeping in view the high temperature, please advice
: : : : : 1) Is it possible to inspect (MPI or DPT) a weld joint / parent metal before repair work or not using the conventional Magnaflux products
: : : : : 2) Is it possible to inspect (MPI or DPT) a weld joint just after welding using the conventional Magnaflux products or not?
: : : : : If not, please explain the reasons and the alternate for inspection.
: : : : : Thanks for your time in advance.
: : One thing to bear in mind. The temperature limits set on MPI concumables is primarily because of the Flash Point of the liquid. It is more of a safety concern.
: Liquid penetrants find cracks by capllary action; when temperatures exceed the limits set by the manufacturer, the liquids evaporate, the dye is no longer moble but fills the voids. They will not bleed out; the test won't work and the resulting vapors can be toxic.
: Depending on the grade of steel that was weld repaired, localized stress relieving of the material may be required. Otherwise the part may crack again from the stresses of the weld repair.
:
------------ End Original Message ------------

another way to use the DPT is use the cooling media which will take the temperature lower



    
 
 
Vijayaraghavan
Vijayaraghavan
00:03 Aug-30-2007
Penetrant test after grinding
----------- Start Original Message -----------
: : : Dear Nigel,
: : : Many thanks for your reply, Infact let me explain something further, you are right that the dry powder or some other consumables can used specially made for high temperature applications, but the major problem with us is the time constraint as the plant was shut down on forced outage, and to get these products will take time as we might have to import them. The magnaflux product we have available on site are WCP2, 7HF (black ink) for MPI, and SKD (Developer) and Penetrant gor DPI, on the spray cans I think the mentioned temperature limit is that we cannot use > 50C. Therefore rephrasing my question is that if someone try to use this in the case mentioned in my previous email is allowable or not or if any one has used at that temperature please share your experience.
: : : I will add another general question regarding welding inspection, that after how many hours it is normally recommended to inspect any weld, as fas as I know we have to give some time after welding for possible hydrogen cracking.
: : : Thanks in advance for your time
: : :
: : : : Hello Muhammed
: : : : One option is to use dry powder MPI ink as produced by Magnaflux and other NDT products manufacturers. The manufacturers data specification sheet will tell you the maximum temperature of use for the product, certainly 100 degress C will not be a problem. Application takes a liyttle more "know-how" on the part of the technician - aim for a cloud of dry particles just above the test surface rather than "dumping" particles on to the surface. There may be a slight sensitivity decrease from wet MPI products.
: : : : Regards
: : : : Nigel
: : : : : Please see the questions below and reply if possible:
: : : : : There was a steam leakage found in auxiliary steam line, it was suspected to have a crack at the weld toe, the line was isolated for inspection and repair. after isolated grinding started to prepare surface for rewelding. Crack was found visually at the weld toe (also suspected minor propagation into the parent metal). NDT of the adjacent parent metal prior to welding to find any further cracking is to be carried out (Note that the temperature of the metal is still high almost 100C as line was just isolated), keeping in view the high temperature, please advice
: : : : : 1) Is it possible to inspect (MPI or DPT) a weld joint / parent metal before repair work or not using the conventional Magnaflux products
: : : : : 2) Is it possible to inspect (MPI or DPT) a weld joint just after welding using the conventional Magnaflux products or not?
: : : : : If not, please explain the reasons and the alternate for inspection.
: : : : : Thanks for your time in advance.
: : One thing to bear in mind. The temperature limits set on MPI concumables is primarily because of the Flash Point of the liquid. It is more of a safety concern.
: Liquid penetrants find cracks by capllary action; when temperatures exceed the limits set by the manufacturer, the liquids evaporate, the dye is no longer moble but fills the voids. They will not bleed out; the test won't work and the resulting vapors can be toxic.
: Depending on the grade of steel that was weld repaired, localized stress relieving of the material may be required. Otherwise the part may crack again from the stresses of the weld repair.
:
------------ End Original Message ------------

Steel bush to be inserted in a aluminium assembly. Both are cleared by Penetrant check. during insertion of this steel bush grinding is carried ou to remove few micron of the material . Does the steel bush to be inspected again for Penetrant inspection . any documents support this ? Pl reply


    
 
 
sivabalan
sivabalan
06:43 Aug-31-2007
Re: Penetrant test after grinding
Dear Mhd,
Dry powder MPI can be carried out upto 200 degree, but ensure before u carry out the test with reference block with similar temperature to get more confident on your test, DPT is not advisable above 80 degree, for safety and quick drying of penetrant (well ventillated area u can do, u have to add constantly penetrant before drying and dry powder developer can be applied after dwell time, development time also to b increased)

Normally for hydrogen susceptible material/ delayed cracking susceptible material test shall be conducted after 48 hours, others advisable to do after 24 hours.
any comments accepted
regards
sivabalan
----------- Start Original Message -----------
: : : : Dear Nigel,
: : : : Many thanks for your reply, Infact let me explain something further, you are right that the dry powder or some other consumables can used specially made for high temperature applications, but the major problem with us is the time constraint as the plant was shut down on forced outage, and to get these products will take time as we might have to import them. The magnaflux product we have available on site are WCP2, 7HF (black ink) for MPI, and SKD (Developer) and Penetrant gor DPI, on the spray cans I think the mentioned temperature limit is that we cannot use > 50C. Therefore rephrasing my question is that if someone try to use this in the case mentioned in my previous email is allowable or not or if any one has used at that temperature please share your experience.
: : : : I will add another general question regarding welding inspection, that after how many hours it is normally recommended to inspect any weld, as fas as I know we have to give some time after welding for possible hydrogen cracking.
: : : : Thanks in advance for your time
: : : :
: : : : : Hello Muhammed
: : : : : One option is to use dry powder MPI ink as produced by Magnaflux and other NDT products manufacturers. The manufacturers data specification sheet will tell you the maximum temperature of use for the product, certainly 100 degress C will not be a problem. Application takes a liyttle more "know-how" on the part of the technician - aim for a cloud of dry particles just above the test surface rather than "dumping" particles on to the surface. There may be a slight sensitivity decrease from wet MPI products.
: : : : : Regards
: : : : : Nigel
: : : : : : Please see the questions below and reply if possible:
: : : : : : There was a steam leakage found in auxiliary steam line, it was suspected to have a crack at the weld toe, the line was isolated for inspection and repair. after isolated grinding started to prepare surface for rewelding. Crack was found visually at the weld toe (also suspected minor propagation into the parent metal). NDT of the adjacent parent metal prior to welding to find any further cracking is to be carried out (Note that the temperature of the metal is still high almost 100C as line was just isolated), keeping in view the high temperature, please advice
: : : : : : 1) Is it possible to inspect (MPI or DPT) a weld joint / parent metal before repair work or not using the conventional Magnaflux products
: : : : : : 2) Is it possible to inspect (MPI or DPT) a weld joint just after welding using the conventional Magnaflux products or not?
: : : : : : If not, please explain the reasons and the alternate for inspection.
: : : : : : Thanks for your time in advance.
: : : One thing to bear in mind. The temperature limits set on MPI concumables is primarily because of the Flash Point of the liquid. It is more of a safety concern.
: : Liquid penetrants find cracks by capllary action; when temperatures exceed the limits set by the manufacturer, the liquids evaporate, the dye is no longer moble but fills the voids. They will not bleed out; the test won't work and the resulting vapors can be toxic.
: : Depending on the grade of steel that was weld repaired, localized stress relieving of the material may be required. Otherwise the part may crack again from the stresses of the weld repair.
: :
: Steel bush to be inserted in a aluminium assembly. Both are cleared by Penetrant check. during insertion of this steel bush grinding is carried ou to remove few micron of the material . Does the steel bush to be inspected again for Penetrant inspection . any documents support this ? Pl reply
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 

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