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Technical Discussions
S.R.G.PRABHU
Consultant, AUT specialist
FREELANCE, India, Joined Aug 2008, 63

S.R.G.PRABHU

Consultant, AUT specialist
FREELANCE,
India,
Joined Aug 2008
63
03:40 Jan-16-2008
Velocity of sound in cu-ni

Could someone advise me the velosity of sound in CU-NI material for UT thickness gauging?


    
 
 
John Brunk
Engineering, NDT Level III
Self employed, part-time, USA, Joined Oct 1999, 159

John Brunk

Engineering, NDT Level III
Self employed, part-time,
USA,
Joined Oct 1999
159
05:58 Jan-16-2008
Re: Velocity of sound in cu-ni
I assume you mean Cu-Ni pipe/tubing and need the longitudinal velocity in the through-wqll direction. It can vary according to composition (90-10, 70-20 or whatever), wall thickness, and how the product was fabricated. Could be anywhere from less than 0.18 in/microsecond to more than 0.22 in/microsecond (4.6 to 5.6 mm/microsecond). You would need to be able to make actual physical measurements at some locations to get a reasonable average velocity if you want your results to be better than a guess.

John Brunk

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Could someone advise me the velosity of sound in CU-NI material for UT thickness gauging?
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 
Raymond Coetser
Raymond Coetser
11:21 Dec-05-2012
Re: Velocity of sound in cu-ni
In Reply to John Brunk at 05:58 Jan-16-2008 .

Hi
I have the same problem at this stage for a massive pipe job in western africa Namibia, Client asked use to do UTM on a very long pipe line, (material is CuNi 90/10), and we cant get the correct velocity to calibrate my UTM machine to carry out this job, these pipes also range from 3.5 to 6mm in thickness, pipes are used for sea water cooling system, can anyone please advise me on the correct velocity that i can use for this material.feel free to contact me via mail (raymondc@iway.na) or by cell +264811479280.

    
 
 
John
John
22:34 Dec-05-2012
Re: Velocity of sound in cu-ni
In Reply to Raymond Coetser at 11:21 Dec-05-2012 .

Is there a problem with getting a step wedge made from the material as there is no stable velocity of a given material Only a guideline/chart numbers to get close, depending on the temp mainly

    
 
 
Wieslaw Bicz
Engineering,
PBP Optel sp. z o.o., Poland, Joined Feb 2009, 248

Wieslaw Bicz

Engineering,
PBP Optel sp. z o.o.,
Poland,
Joined Feb 2009
248
15:28 Dec-06-2012
Re: Velocity of sound in cu-ni
In Reply to S.R.G.PRABHU at 03:40 Jan-16-2008 (Opening).

If you will use two transducers in proper configuration (in two steps) or a appropiate head with three transducers you do not need to know the sound speed but can calculate the thickness and sound speed from the obtained data.

    
 
 
massimo carminati
Consultant, AUT specialist
IMG Ultrasuoni Srl, Italy, Joined Apr 2007, 691

massimo carminati

Consultant, AUT specialist
IMG Ultrasuoni Srl,
Italy,
Joined Apr 2007
691
21:11 Dec-06-2012
Re: Velocity of sound in cu-ni
In Reply to Wieslaw Bicz at 15:28 Dec-06-2012 .

I don't know if there is still an instrument from GE that does this, but several years ago there was an AUTO-V system using a probe with 4 crystals and 2 multiplexed cycles; one cycle was measuring the TOF with a known distance (and calculate velocity) the second cycle was measuring the v-path and calculating thickness with the previously measured velocity.

    
 
 
Wieslaw Bicz
Engineering,
PBP Optel sp. z o.o., Poland, Joined Feb 2009, 248

Wieslaw Bicz

Engineering,
PBP Optel sp. z o.o.,
Poland,
Joined Feb 2009
248
21:47 Dec-06-2012
Re: Velocity of sound in cu-ni
In Reply to massimo carminati at 21:11 Dec-06-2012 .

You can do it with 3 crystals and it needs a quite simple calculation. It is also possible with two transducers in two steps. The use of 5 crystals in one head can improve the accuracy significantly.

    
 
 
John
John
22:23 Dec-06-2012
Re: Velocity of sound in cu-ni
In Reply to massimo carminati at 21:11 Dec-06-2012 .

Massimo, I believe the machine you describe is called an ultrasonic flaw detector ... What you describe is auto-cal

    
 
 
Neil Burleigh
Sales
Krautkramer Australia Pty Ltd, Australia, Joined Dec 2002, 153

Neil Burleigh

Sales
Krautkramer Australia Pty Ltd,
Australia,
Joined Dec 2002
153
22:36 Dec-06-2012
Re: Velocity of sound in cu-ni
In Reply to massimo carminati at 21:11 Dec-06-2012 .

The latest version of this technology is the DMS Go TC with the TopCOAT probe TC 560.
Regards
Neil Burleigh

    
 
 
massimo carminati
Consultant, AUT specialist
IMG Ultrasuoni Srl, Italy, Joined Apr 2007, 691

massimo carminati

Consultant, AUT specialist
IMG Ultrasuoni Srl,
Italy,
Joined Apr 2007
691
07:52 Dec-07-2012
Re: Velocity of sound in cu-ni
In Reply to Wieslaw Bicz at 21:47 Dec-06-2012 .

I believe Prabhu is not looking for something to be specifically designed and laboratory use...here is the link to the instrument with "unknown" velocity thickness measurement capability.
http://www.ge-mcs.com/en/ultrasound/thickness-gauges/dms-go.html

    
 
 
massimo carminati
Consultant, AUT specialist
IMG Ultrasuoni Srl, Italy, Joined Apr 2007, 691

massimo carminati

Consultant, AUT specialist
IMG Ultrasuoni Srl,
Italy,
Joined Apr 2007
691
07:56 Dec-07-2012
Re: Velocity of sound in cu-ni
In Reply to John at 22:23 Dec-06-2012 .

Sorry John, are you serious?
I've got in my hands the first prototype of this solution in 1996, in Lewistown; This was and USN52 modified specifically developed for cast iron dryers in paper mill industry. I know this is a flaw detector! And let me tell you, auto cal is a totally different thing.

    
 
 
Wieslaw Bicz
Engineering,
PBP Optel sp. z o.o., Poland, Joined Feb 2009, 248

Wieslaw Bicz

Engineering,
PBP Optel sp. z o.o.,
Poland,
Joined Feb 2009
248
10:12 Dec-07-2012
Re: Velocity of sound in cu-ni
In Reply to massimo carminati at 07:52 Dec-07-2012 .

You are fully correct. But this technique can be really used with a standard probes, even with a typical flaw detector. I was not sure, which device is already using this and had no time to check it. From my point of view it is interesting, that the idea is quite unknown, although simple and probably proposed years ago.

    
 
 
John
John
18:44 Dec-07-2012
Re: Velocity of sound in cu-ni
In Reply to Wieslaw Bicz at 10:12 Dec-07-2012 .

Would love to see a new formula. I understand the basic V=f/w. please someone share the new and improved F= unknown V / unknown W
Massimo, you if I'm not mistaken said find V with a known thks or find thickness with a known V. To me that describes basically a calibration and measuring thks regardless of the number of crystals. Also I've used every field model produced by KB and GE. If it worked, it wouldn't be a secret add on. I would love to hear from a former KB rep on this subject. Back to the original post though with out all the theoretical physics, I still think machining two known thicknesses from same material or finding two edges to physically measure would be the easiest and quickest solution to your problem that doesn't require buying new equipment to find the velocity. Just remember to heat or cool the cal block to the temp of specimen being inspected as temp will play a vital role in the material velocity.

    
 
 
John
John
20:11 Dec-07-2012
Re: Velocity of sound in cu-ni
Also, most procedures, even for UTT, require the use of cal blocks of the same material P# group equiv
    
 
 
massimo carminati
Consultant, AUT specialist
IMG Ultrasuoni Srl, Italy, Joined Apr 2007, 691

massimo carminati

Consultant, AUT specialist
IMG Ultrasuoni Srl,
Italy,
Joined Apr 2007
691
20:47 Dec-07-2012
Re: Velocity of sound in cu-ni
In Reply to John at 18:44 Dec-07-2012 .

John,
I was the KK italian operation manager at that time, and this was developed by Tom Carodiwsky in Lewistown. I sold a couple of this units and was worming properly. At this time this feature is embedded in the USM GO using a TC560.

    
 
 
massimo carminati
Consultant, AUT specialist
IMG Ultrasuoni Srl, Italy, Joined Apr 2007, 691

massimo carminati

Consultant, AUT specialist
IMG Ultrasuoni Srl,
Italy,
Joined Apr 2007
691
01:25 Dec-08-2012
Re: Velocity of sound in cu-ni
In Reply to John at 18:44 Dec-07-2012 .

Download

john,
you might have used all worldwide instrument, but not this evidently, so consider the remote hypotheses you could have learned something new (not from me of course). the modified USN52 you will find in the presentation was exactly what I used and sold. Please note I am not a krautkramer (don't like the new brand) employee or agent, but, in a way a competitor to them.....
    
 
 
Wieslaw Bicz
Engineering,
PBP Optel sp. z o.o., Poland, Joined Feb 2009, 248

Wieslaw Bicz

Engineering,
PBP Optel sp. z o.o.,
Poland,
Joined Feb 2009
248
15:28 Dec-08-2012
Re: Velocity of sound in cu-ni
In Reply to John at 18:44 Dec-07-2012 .

The formula is quite simple, but requires the knowledge of time of flight of sound waves on at least two paths and some knowledge about object geometry. Additionally it is necessary to know the distance between transducers, that are used.
In the case of plan-parallel structure (plate or wall of the pipe) the geometry is simple and two paths are fully sufficient. Everybody knowing this can do it with help of two transducers and simple ultrasonic flaw detector. The GE (Krautkraemer) device is simple using this fact in a more sophisticated manner.
If you want and the boss of this forum will agree, I can publish a description of this measuring method in NDT.

    
 
 
Graeme Fox
Graeme Fox
06:29 Jan-07-2015
Re: Velocity of sound in cu-ni
In Reply to S.R.G.PRABHU at 03:40 Jan-16-2008 (Opening).

All the technical speak aside - CuNi 90/10 - 2060m/s

https://sites.google.com/a/techrentals.com.au/wiki/Home/product-notes/PAN-PT878/Pipe-Material-Sound-Speed-Table

    
 
 

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