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Technical Discussions
Qaisar Abbas
Engineering, Inspection ENgineer
Engro Chemical Pakistan Limited, Pakistan, Joined May 2008, 7

Qaisar Abbas

Engineering, Inspection ENgineer
Engro Chemical Pakistan Limited,
Pakistan,
Joined May 2008
7
05:49 Sep-06-2008
NDT for Leaking Expansion Bellows

Dear All,

We have around 20 expansion bellows of 36" dia on hot feed gas (methane+steam) operation at about 800 F verses 85 F ambiant temperature. We are suspecting some of them leaking in the field.

For this, is ther any any NDT pratice in industires / experience to exactly detect the leaking bellows without installing scaffolding near to them and in running condition of plant?

Regards
Qaisar
qabbas@engro.com


    
 
 Reply 
 
Simon
Simon
06:35 Sep-06-2008
Re: NDT for Leaking Expansion Bellows
----------- Start Original Message -----------: Dear All,: We have around 20 expansion bellows of 36" dia on hot feed gas (methane+steam) operation at about 800 F verses 85 F ambiant temperature. We are suspecting some of them leaking in the field. : For this, is ther any any NDT pratice in industires / experience to exactly detect the leaking bellows without installing scaffolding near to them and in running condition of plant?: Regards: Qaisar: qabbas@engro.com------------ End Original Message ------------You can use Ultrasonic Leak Detectors to find the leaks from a distance of 50 ft or so and pin point them. You can check with Sonatest for Soundscan System.The other option will be IR Thermography. Depends on your criticality of inspection, you can choose any one of the above methodsSimon


    
 
 Reply 
 
Michel Couture
NDT Inspector,
consultant, Canada, Joined Sep 2006, 835

Michel Couture

NDT Inspector,
consultant,
Canada,
Joined Sep 2006
835
08:00 Sep-07-2008
Re: NDT for Leaking Expansion Bellows
Hi Qaisar,

I don't know what your plant looks like and I'm not an expert in the field I will suggest, but from what I know and the picutres I saw about it on the internet, I would give Infrared Thermography a chance. As I said, I'm not an expert, but if you have a gas leak, I'm sure the increase velocity of the excaping gas will cause a change in its temperature. It should be lower than the operating temperature yet higher than ambient. That should make it detectable with Thermography.

Cheerio's
Michel
----------- Start Original Message -----------
: ----------- Start Original Message -----------: Dear All,: We have around 20 expansion bellows of 36" dia on hot feed gas (methane+steam) operation at about 800 F verses 85 F ambiant temperature. We are suspecting some of them leaking in the field. : For this, is ther any any NDT pratice in industires / experience to exactly detect the leaking bellows without installing scaffolding near to them and in running condition of plant?: Regards: Qaisar: qabbas@engro.com------------ End Original Message ------------You can use Ultrasonic Leak Detectors to find the leaks from a distance of 50 ft or so and pin point them. You can check with Sonatest for Soundscan System.The other option will be IR Thermography. Depends on your criticality of inspection, you can choose any one of the above methodsSimon
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 Reply 
 
Simon
Simon
02:52 Sep-08-2008
Re: NDT for Leaking Expansion Bellows
----------- Start Original Message -----------
: ----------- Start Original Message -----------: Dear All,: We have around 20 expansion bellows of 36" dia on hot feed gas (methane+steam) operation at about 800 F verses 85 F ambiant temperature. We are suspecting some of them leaking in the field. : For this, is ther any any NDT pratice in industires / experience to exactly detect the leaking bellows without installing scaffolding near to them and in running condition of plant?: Regards: Qaisar: qabbas@engro.com------------ End Original Message ------------You can use Ultrasonic Leak Detectors to find the leaks from a distance of 50 ft or so and pin point them. You can check with Sonatest for Soundscan System.The other option will be IR Thermography. Depends on your criticality of inspection, you can choose any one of the above methodsSimon
------------ End Original Message ------------

Hi,
Basically any leak will generate ultrasonic frequency - it may be pressure, vaccum, electrical or mechanicalleak- this depends on the application you look for.
The range falls between 30 to 44 kHz for the above said types of leaks. The Pressure leak will be gussing sound, vaccum - crackling sound,electrical - continuous cracking sound and mechanical - similar to above and depends on the rotating unit being tested by the user.

Because of the different noise generated by differnt types of leaks, you will be able to identify them.

Imagine in a Pipline, you have a constant and continuos flow - which will have a continuous noise. At a point of juncture or obstruction, turbulence generates and the tubulence generates ultrasound. The sound levels will be differnt for each type of leak mentioned above.

There are instruments to read the UT frequency generated by these turbulences and these instruements are called UT Leak Detectors. These instruments have many varied appalications.

I would say it is your limit of imagination, you will be able to use this instrument. Some innovative applications like identifying the size of coal in feed area in Steam Geenrator, Quality of Oil being used for Lubrication, Sensing snakes in closed Mail boxes and many more.

Hope this helps you to undersatnd Leak detection by Ultrasonic method.

If you need more info, contact me thru mail.

Regards

Simon



    
 
 Reply 
 
Joe Buckley
Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 1999, 521

Joe Buckley

Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 1999
521
01:31 Sep-08-2008
Re: NDT for Leaking Expansion Bellows
I confirm that the Soundscan system should work well for this application. (as I understand it)

In general any tubulent gas leak that you 'could' hear or feel (not at 800 degrees...) from a few tens of cm away in a quiet lab environment produces ultrasound that can be detected from a distance of maybe 20m (or more with the Powerbeam 300 concentrator) in a typical factory or industrial environment.

The Powerbeam also restricts the 'field of hear' to a few degress of angle - very helpful if there are other noise sources around. and has a laser sighting device.

you can find information on the sonatest website - we are updating this at the moment, so use the search facility on 'soundscan'

Rgds

Joe

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: : ----------- Start Original Message -----------: Dear All,: We have around 20 expansion bellows of 36" dia on hot feed gas (methane+steam) operation at about 800 F verses 85 F ambiant temperature. We are suspecting some of them leaking in the field. : For this, is ther any any NDT pratice in industires / experience to exactly detect the leaking bellows without installing scaffolding near to them and in running condition of plant?: Regards: Qaisar: qabbas@engro.com------------ End Original Message ------------You can use Ultrasonic Leak Detectors to find the leaks from a distance of 50 ft or so and pin point them. You can check with Sonatest for Soundscan System.The other option will be IR Thermography. Depends on your criticality of inspection, you can choose any one of the above methodsSimon
: Hi,
: Basically any leak will generate ultrasonic frequency - it may be pressure, vaccum, electrical or mechanical leak- this depends on the application you look for.
: The range falls between 30 to 44 kHz for the above said types of leaks. The Pressure leak will be gussing sound, vaccum - crackling sound,electrical - continuous cracking sound and mechanical - similar to above and depends on the rotating unit being tested by the user.
: Because of the different noise generated by differnt types of leaks, you will be able to identify them.
: Imagine in a Pipline, you have a constant and continuos flow - which will have a continuous noise. At a point of juncture or obstruction, turbulence generates and the tubulence generates ultrasound. The sound levels will be differnt for each type of leak mentioned above.
: There are instruments to read the UT frequency generated by these turbulences and these instruements are called UT Leak Detectors. These instruments have many varied appalications.
: I would say it is your limit of imagination, you will be able to use this instrument. Some innovative applications like identifying the size of coal in feed area in Steam Geenrator, Quality of Oil being used for Lubrication, Sensing snakes in closed Mail boxes and many more.
: Hope this helps you to undersatnd Leak detection by Ultrasonic method.
: If you need more info, contact me thru mail.
: Regards
: Simon
:
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 Reply 
 
Qaisar Abbas
Engineering, Inspection ENgineer
Engro Chemical Pakistan Limited, Pakistan, Joined May 2008, 7

Qaisar Abbas

Engineering, Inspection ENgineer
Engro Chemical Pakistan Limited,
Pakistan,
Joined May 2008
7
04:50 Sep-09-2008
Re: NDT for Leaking Expansion Bellows
Thanks to All,

We appreciate your comments and advices.
As per your inputs, we will first go for thermography and then to Soundscan. We have thermography camera with us and will try with it. For Soundscan, we will dig out local supplier for services.

Once again, Thanks

Qaisar Abbas


----------- Start Original Message -----------
: I confirm that the Soundscan system should work well for this application. (as I understand it)
: In general any tubulent gas leak that you 'could' hear or feel (not at 800 degrees...) from a few tens of cm away in a quiet lab environment produces ultrasound that can be detected from a distance of maybe 20m (or more with the Powerbeam 300 concentrator) in a typical factory or industrial environment.
: The Powerbeam also restricts the 'field of hear' to a few degress of angle - very helpful if there are other noise sources around. and has a laser sighting device.
: you can find information on the sonatest website - we are updating this at the moment, so use the search facility on 'soundscan'
: Rgds
: Joe
: : : ----------- Start Original Message -----------: Dear All,: We have around 20 expansion bellows of 36" dia on hot feed gas (methane+steam) operation at about 800 F verses 85 F ambiant temperature. We are suspecting some of them leaking in the field. : For this, is ther any any NDT pratice in industires / experience to exactly detect the leaking bellows without installing scaffolding near to them and in running condition of plant?: Regards: Qaisar: qabbas@engro.com------------ End Original Message ------------You can use Ultrasonic Leak Detectors to find the leaks from a distance of 50 ft or so and pin point them. You can check with Sonatest for Soundscan System.The other option will be IR Thermography. Depends on your criticality of inspection, you can choose any one of the above methodsSimon
: : Hi,
: : Basically any leak will generate ultrasonic frequency - it may be pressure, vaccum, electrical or mechanical leak- this depends on the application you look for.
: : The range falls between 30 to 44 kHz for the above said types of leaks. The Pressure leak will be gussing sound, vaccum - crackling sound,electrical - continuous cracking sound and mechanical - similar to above and depends on the rotating unit being tested by the user.
: : Because of the different noise generated by differnt types of leaks, you will be able to identify them.
: : Imagine in a Pipline, you have a constant and continuos flow - which will have a continuous noise. At a point of juncture or obstruction, turbulence generates and the tubulence generates ultrasound. The sound levels will be differnt for each type of leak mentioned above.
: : There are instruments to read the UT frequency generated by these turbulences and these instruements are called UT Leak Detectors. These instruments have many varied appalications.
: : I would say it is your limit of imagination, you will be able to use this instrument. Some innovative applications like identifying the size of coal in feed area in Steam Geenrator, Quality of Oil being used for Lubrication, Sensing snakes in closed Mail boxes and many more.
: : Hope this helps you to undersatnd Leak detection by Ultrasonic method.
: : If you need more info, contact me thru mail.
: : Regards
: : Simon
: :
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 Reply 
 
Athanasios Anastasopoulos
Director,
Mistras Group, Greece, Joined Jan 2000, 14

Athanasios Anastasopoulos

Director,
Mistras Group,
Greece,
Joined Jan 2000
14
09:00 Sep-09-2008
Re: NDT for Leaking Expansion Bellows
I know that Physical Acoustics Corp. USA used to sell a similar instrument operating with Air Born sensor at low frequency i.e. 40KHz to 60KHz called ULD. I do not know if they still market this instrument but certainly some service companies including ours operate this and offer services. In addition to that let me bring to the discussion the option of continuous leak monitoring using Intrinsically safe acoustic sensors, permanently attached to the pipe. The necessity for on line leak detection and loss control arise from the need of fast response in case of leak of critical components. For further details on such application please refer to PAC or PAC UK web page http://www.pacuk.co.uk or contact us.

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Thanks to All,
: We appreciate your comments and advices.
: As per your inputs, we will first go for thermography and then to Soundscan. We have thermography camera with us and will try with it. For Soundscan, we will dig out local supplier for services.
: Once again, Thanks
: Qaisar Abbas
:
: : I confirm that the Soundscan system should work well for this application. (as I understand it)
: : In general any tubulent gas leak that you 'could' hear or feel (not at 800 degrees...) from a few tens of cm away in a quiet lab environment produces ultrasound that can be detected from a distance of maybe 20m (or more with the Powerbeam 300 concentrator) in a typical factory or industrial environment.
: : The Powerbeam also restricts the 'field of hear' to a few degress of angle - very helpful if there are other noise sources around. and has a laser sighting device.
: : you can find information on the sonatest website - we are updating this at the moment, so use the search facility on 'soundscan'
: : Rgds
: : Joe
: : : : ----------- Start Original Message -----------: Dear All,: We have around 20 expansion bellows of 36" dia on hot feed gas (methane+steam) operation at about 800 F verses 85 F ambiant temperature. We are suspecting some of them leaking in the field. : For this, is ther any any NDT pratice in industires / experience to exactly detect the leaking bellows without installing scaffolding near to them and in running condition of plant?: Regards: Qaisar: qabbas@engro.com------------ End Original Message ------------You can use Ultrasonic Leak Detectors to find the leaks from a distance of 50 ft or so and pin point them. You can check with Sonatest for Soundscan System.The other option will be IR Thermography. Depends on your criticality of inspection, you can choose any one of the above methodsSimon
: : : Hi,
: : : Basically any leak will generate ultrasonic frequency - it may be pressure, vaccum, electrical or mechanical leak- this depends on the application you look for.
: : : The range falls between 30 to 44 kHz for the above said types of leaks. The Pressure leak will be gussing sound, vaccum - crackling sound,electrical - continuous cracking sound and mechanical - similar to above and depends on the rotating unit being tested by the user.
: : : Because of the different noise generated by differnt types of leaks, you will be able to identify them.
: : : Imagine in a Pipline, you have a constant and continuos flow - which will have a continuous noise. At a point of juncture or obstruction, turbulence generates and the tubulence generates ultrasound. The sound levels will be differnt for each type of leak mentioned above.
: : : There are instruments to read the UT frequency generated by these turbulences and these instruements are called UT Leak Detectors. These instruments have many varied appalications.
: : : I would say it is your limit of imagination, you will be able to use this instrument. Some innovative applications like identifying the size of coal in feed area in Steam Geenrator, Quality of Oil being used for Lubrication, Sensing snakes in closed Mail boxes and many more.
: : : Hope this helps you to undersatnd Leak detection by Ultrasonic method.
: : : If you need more info, contact me thru mail.
: : : Regards
: : : Simon
: : :
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 Reply 
 
John O'Brien
Consultant, -
Chevron ETC , USA, Joined Jan 2000, 278

John O'Brien

Consultant, -
Chevron ETC ,
USA,
Joined Jan 2000
278
03:48 Sep-11-2008
Re: NDT for Leaking Expansion Bellows
Qaisar

if you have access to a GasFind IR by FLIR you may find sensitivity better as it will identify specific hydrocarbon gases without the same degree of thermal difference needed on a standard IR camera. We use these now extensively with great success.


    
 
 Reply 
 

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