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John Woollven
John Woollven
08:13 Nov-23-2004
Lean NDT procedures

A popular trend in QA procedure writing is to eliminate all unnecessary verbiage and strive for "lean" documents.

Most NDT procedures that I have ever seen have been of the traditional type, usually re-hashing large chunks of some Code or Standard. I would be interested to hear from anyone who has thought outside the box and developed minimal NDT procedures that have been accepted by customers and jurisdictional authorities alike. For example, has anyone used a process map as a procedure?

As a somewhat frivolous aside, ASME Section V, in paragraph T-220, requires "at least" seven pieces of information "as applicable" to appear in a radiography procedure - would a procedure that addressed just these seven items be acceptable?


    
 
 Reply 
 
Martin Peacock
Engineering
MB Inspection, United Kingdom, Joined Jan 2003, 1

Martin Peacock

Engineering
MB Inspection,
United Kingdom,
Joined Jan 2003
1
09:15 Nov-24-2004
Re: Lean NDT procedures
I am all for lean procedures and lean documents in general. There is a limit to how much you can take out without compromising the procedure. Many have to cover a range of options in terms of what is inspected and how.

I think what people should do is strive for clarity. A long document can still be clear and easy to use if it is well written and properly structured. You can always write separate and lean work instructions for specific items or jobs.

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: A popular trend in QA procedure writing is to eliminate all unnecessary verbiage and strive for "lean" documents.
: Most NDT procedures that I have ever seen have been of the traditional type, usually re-hashing large chunks of some Code or Standard. I would be interested to hear from anyone who has thought outside the box and developed minimal NDT procedures that have been accepted by customers and jurisdictional authorities alike. For example, has anyone used a process map as a procedure?
: As a somewhat frivolous aside, ASME Section V, in paragraph T-220, requires "at least" seven pieces of information "as applicable" to appear in a radiography procedure - would a procedure that addressed just these seven items be acceptable?
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 Reply 
 
Dent McIntyre
Consultant, NDE Manager NDELevel III/3
NDT Consultant, Canada, Joined Nov 1998, 248

Dent McIntyre

Consultant, NDE Manager NDELevel III/3
NDT Consultant,
Canada,
Joined Nov 1998
248
04:57 Nov-24-2004
Re: Lean NDT procedures
I am all for 'lean' procedures too, but you often get caught in the middle.
If you make it 'lean' with just enough info to get the necessary approvals from customer or regulators, you will probably need another instruction that is lengthy to tell the technician what he needs to do.

For example, if you just refer to ASME code paragraphs for information you can get away with short to the point procedures, but do you expect the technician to carry the ASME code with him to do the job. He will certainly need information from it and if it is only by reference in the procedure where does he get it?

In my 30+ years writing and approving procedures I have seen both ends of the scale and I tend to lean toward detailed procedures so everything the tech needs is in one place.
Have never seen anyone use a process map.

Good Topic John.


----------- Start Original Message -----------
: A popular trend in QA procedure writing is to eliminate all unnecessary verbiage and strive for "lean" documents.
: Most NDT procedures that I have ever seen have been of the traditional type, usually re-hashing large chunks of some Code or Standard. I would be interested to hear from anyone who has thought outside the box and developed minimal NDT procedures that have been accepted by customers and jurisdictional authorities alike. For example, has anyone used a process map as a procedure?
: As a somewhat frivolous aside, ASME Section V, in paragraph T-220, requires "at least" seven pieces of information "as applicable" to appear in a radiography procedure - would a procedure that addressed just these seven items be acceptable?
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 Reply 
 
John O'Brien
Consultant, -
Chevron ETC , USA, Joined Jan 2000, 278

John O'Brien

Consultant, -
Chevron ETC ,
USA,
Joined Jan 2000
278
00:51 Nov-24-2004
Re: Lean NDT procedures
The QA Gurus created a 'wordsmithing' industry which has destroyed rain forests. As you point out ASME only requires certain bits of information and that may be all you need. A procedure does not have to contain 'work instructions' as that can be a seperate referenced entity.

You have to ask the question what are you trying to satisfy with the procedure. How you transfer the intent is open to negotiation so long as you can show that required data is there and is understandable.

people tend to wite procedures that read well and impress people and then fall down as they do not actually do waht the procedure says. A procedure should adrees mandatory requirmenets then say exactly what you do and you should be able to show you do what you say you do.


    
 
 Reply 
 
Mike Trinidad
Consultant,
LMATS Pty Ltd , Australia, Joined Jan 2003, 138

Mike Trinidad

Consultant,
LMATS Pty Ltd ,
Australia,
Joined Jan 2003
138
07:06 Dec-15-2004
Re: Lean NDT procedures
I have seen all the types of procedures disussed from lean, detailed to flowcharts.

The leanest I have ever seen and was approved as the regulating body could not fault was the inspection will be carried out in accordance with AS2085 etc. In reality it cannot be faulted as the technician would have to have a copy of the code with him. As stated the ASME codes are a bit big for lugging around but for a smaller code it can be done.

Regarding flow charts I have seen a great one for weld inspections by a CWI.

Bottom line however is what keeps the clients happy and the procedures are written to their wants not what we may want. This bothers me as the original intent of QA system was not that we had to give copies of everything to clients as they are internal work practices however it has now become the norm. This leads into another form of lean document I have seen that is the client specific procedure that has only 10% of the information in it.

Regards

Mike


----------- Start Original Message -----------
: A popular trend in QA procedure writing is to eliminate all unnecessary verbiage and strive for "lean" documents.
: Most NDT procedures that I have ever seen have been of the traditional type, usually re-hashing large chunks of some Code or Standard. I would be interested to hear from anyone who has thought outside the box and developed minimal NDT procedures that have been accepted by customers and jurisdictional authorities alike. For example, has anyone used a process map as a procedure?
: As a somewhat frivolous aside, ASME Section V, in paragraph T-220, requires "at least" seven pieces of information "as applicable" to appear in a radiography procedure - would a procedure that addressed just these seven items be acceptable?
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 Reply 
 
David Harvey
Engineering
ATI - Wah Chang, USA, Joined Nov 2002, 42

David Harvey

Engineering
ATI - Wah Chang,
USA,
Joined Nov 2002
42
06:24 Dec-16-2004
Re: Lean NDT procedures
I have changed the system at my workplace to implement a short, 1-2 page, Customer or product specific "technique instruction." It is tied to a base procedure, and has the specific changes or requirements for a given Customer or product. The base procedure has all the boilerplate, and the two-pager has the essentials for setup and test per the specific requirement.

This works well, since we are basically a captive test lab, and the basic procedures are all written on the same format, and the big books are on the shelf close by. It has also seemed to satisfy the Customers that demand "tech sheets" for every test possibility.

I really like the leaning out of the documents. It seems to help us avoid the auditor game of "gotcha" with the technician, delving deep within some obscure boilerplate type of paragraph that the tech missed.
:
: : A popular trend in QA procedure writing is to eliminate all unnecessary verbiage and strive for "lean" documents.
: : Most NDT procedures that I have everseen have been of the traditional type, usually re-hashing large chunks of some Code or Standard. I would be interested to hear from anyone who has thought outside the box and developed minimal NDT procedures that have been accepted by customers and jurisdictional authorities alike. For example, has anyone used a process map as a procedure?
: : As a somewhat frivolous aside, ASME Section V, in paragraph T-220, requires "at least" seven pieces of information "as applicable" to appear in a radiography procedure - would a procedure that addressed just these seven items be acceptable?
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 Reply 
 
Jose Mora
Jose Mora
02:15 Apr-18-2005
Re: Lean NDT procedures
One aspect of lean documents that I would like to see is the elimiation of the "web of cross references." It seems some people like to cross reference every document to every other document. Why not use the Device Master Record (medical devices) or a database to handle cross-references?

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: I am all for lean procedures and lean documents in general. There is a limit to how much you can take out without compromising the procedure. Many have to cover a range of options in terms of what is inspected and how.
: I think what people should do is strive for clarity. A long document can still be clear and easy to use if it is well written and properly structured. You can always write separate and lean work instructions for specific items or jobs.
: : A popular trend in QA procedure writing is to eliminate all unnecessary verbiage and strive for "lean" documents.
: : Most NDT procedures that I have ever seen have been of the traditional type, usuallyre-hashing large chunks of some Code or Standard. I would be interested to hear from anyone who has thought outside the box and developed minimal NDT procedures that have been accepted by customers and jurisdictional authorities alike. For example, has anyone used a process map as a procedure?
: : As a somewhat frivolous aside, ASME Section V, in paragraph T-220, requires "at least" seven pieces of information "as applicable" to appear in a radiography procedure - would a procedure that addressed just these seven items be acceptable?
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 Reply 
 

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