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02:13 Jan-23-2007

William Blum

Consultant, Training, Level III Services
NDT Consulting Group Inc.,
USA,
Joined Nov 2000
89
Acceptance of Online Training

What is your opinion of online training? Does it meet the definition of training in TC-1a or other documents? Is it acceptable as "organized training"? Does it meet the requirements for formal training?

Thanks,

Bill




 
08:01 Jan-26-2007

Godfrey Hands

Engineering,
PRI Nadcap,
United Kingdom,
Joined Nov 1998
281
Re: Acceptance of Online Training ----------- Start Original Message -----------
: What is your opinion of online training? Does it meet the definition of training in TC-1a or other documents? Is it acceptable as "organized training"? Does it meet the requirements for formal training?
: Thanks,
: Bill
------------ End Original Message ------------

Bill,
I think it should be an acceptable training method for some of the certification schemes such as TC-1A, but it will be difficult to prove the training hours. For some schemes, I think it will not be acceptable.

Godfrey


 
09:17 Jan-26-2007

Nigel

Engineering, - Specialist services
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 2000
1094
Re: Acceptance of Online Training William

Thanks for posting this topic - its always good to read other peoples' ideas and opinions.

Everythng has its place and I am sure on-line NDT training may be appropriate in certain circumstances, e.g. where an appreciation is required rather than the ability to perform specific inspection tasks.

For the latter I can envisage a couple of problems with on-line training. NDE training needs a lot of tailoring to the individuals needs as we come from such diverese backgrounds and educational levels. Some people need to be taught the fundamentals underpinning the NDT method such as basic maths, trigonometry, equation manipulation. Face-to-face training facilitates early detection of the trainee's weak areas and gives the trainer opportunity to concentrate on those areas.

More importantly perhaps is the practical side - how is anybody going to be able to develop radiographic characteristic curves, exposure charts, understand changing exposure parameters if they cannot have access to a radiography bay. Or perform simple UT exercises. No for me it has to be face-to-face training with all equipment to hand which the trainee will be using in their working life.

I realise on the job experience as a trainee will cover many aspects of performing the tasks, but commercial exigencies will often make it difficult for the trainee to complete a comprehensive syllabus designed specifically for the trainee.

Nigel



 
05:41 Jan-31-2007
JImbo
Re: Acceptance of Online Training ----------- Start Original Message -----------
: William
: Thanks for posting this topic - its always good to read other peoples' ideas and opinions.
: Everythng has its place and I am sure on-line NDT training may be appropriate in certain circumstances, e.g. where an appreciation is required rather than the ability to perform specific inspection tasks.
: For the latter I can envisage a couple of problems with on-line training. NDE training needs a lot of tailoring to the individuals needs as we come from such diverese backgrounds and educational levels. Some people need to be taught the fundamentals underpinning the NDT method such as basic maths, trigonometry, equation manipulation. Face-to-face training facilitates early detection of the trainee's weak areas and gives the trainer opportunity to concentrate on those areas.
: More importantly perhaps is the practical side - how is anybody going to be able to develop radiographic characteristic curves, exposure charts, understand changing exposure parameters if they cannot have access to a radiography bay. Or perform simple UT exercises. No for me it has to be face-to-face training with all equipment to hand which the trainee will be using in their working life.
: I realise on the job experience as a trainee will cover many aspects of performing the tasks, but commercial exigencies will often make it difficult for the trainee to complete a comprehensive syllabus designed specifically for the trainee.
: Nigel
------------ End Original Message ------------

I think the online training is a good concept,however, the only fallback is the hands on training in the classroom. Without actually seeing it, how can you learn it?



 
06:45 Mar-07-2007
colin rawlinson
Re: Acceptance of Online Training ----------- Start Original Message -----------
: : William
: : Thanks for posting this topic - its always good to read other peoples' ideas and opinions.
: : Everythng has its place and I am sure on-line NDT training may be appropriate in certain circumstances, e.g. where an appreciation is required rather than the ability to perform specific inspection tasks.
: : For the latter I can envisage a couple of problems with on-line training. NDE training needs a lot of tailoring to the individuals needs as we come from such diverese backgrounds and educational levels. Some people need to be taught the fundamentals underpinning the NDT method such as basic maths, trigonometry, equation manipulation. Face-to-face training facilitates early detection of the trainee's weak areas and gives the trainer opportunity to concentrate on those areas.
: : More importantly perhaps is the practical side - how is anybody going to be able to develop radiographic characteristic curves, exposure charts, understand changing exposure parameters if they cannot have access to a radiography bay. Or perform simple UT exercises. No for me it has to be face-to-face training with all equipment to hand which the trainee will be using in their working life.
: : I realise on the job experience as a trainee will cover many aspects of performing the tasks, but commercial exigencies will often make it difficult for the trainee to complete a comprehensive syllabus designed specifically for the trainee.
: : Nigel
: I think the online training is a good concept,however, the only fallback is the hands on training in the classroom. Without actually seeing it, how can you learn it?
------------ End Original Message ------------

We have devloped UT and AUT simulation software that enables operators and inspectors in UT to "see" how sound travels in the weld metal.
Assuming that the identity of the candidate can be verified this enables us to develop on line training and proof of competence.
Mail us for a demo at colin@AUTinspectors.com

Its leaves a small carbon emission footprint because traveling time to personnel testing centres is massively reduced.
Developed ,not by an academic ,but a UT man with 30 years experience as a QA/QC inspector



 
01:05 Mar-10-2007

Nigel

Engineering, - Specialist services
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 2000
1094
Re: Acceptance of Online Training Colin

Are you stating unequivocally that purely by on-line communication, you can train a person to the same standard as when the trainee is face to face with the trainer. I believe your system may be a useful additional tool available to the trainer, but I dont believe it can replace classroom time and monitored practise with full trainer/trainee interaction.

Regards

Nigel

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: : : William
: : : Thanks for posting this topic - its always good to read other peoples' ideas and opinions.
: : : Everythng has its place and I am sure on-line NDT training may be appropriate in certain circumstances, e.g. where an appreciation is required rather than the ability to perform specific inspection tasks.
: : : For the latter I can envisage a couple of problems with on-line training. NDE training needs a lot of tailoring to the individuals needs as we come from such diverese backgrounds and educational levels. Some people need to be taught the fundamentals underpinning the NDT method such as basic maths, trigonometry, equation manipulation. Face-to-face training facilitates early detection of the trainee's weak areas and gives the trainer opportunity to concentrate on those areas.
: : : More importantly perhaps is the practical side - how is anybody going to be able to develop radiographic characteristic curves, exposure charts, understand changing exposure parameters if they cannot have access to a radiography bay. Or perform simple UT exercises. No for me it has to be face-to-face training with all equipment to hand which the trainee will be using in their working life.
: : : I realise on the job experience as a trainee will cover many aspects of performing the tasks, but commercial exigencies will often make it difficult for the trainee to complete a comprehensive syllabus designed specifically for the trainee.
: : : Nigel
: : I think the online training is a good concept,however, the only fallback is the hands on training in the classroom. Without actually seeing it, how can you learn it?
: We have devloped UT and AUT simulation software that enables operators and inspectors in UT to "see" how sound travels in the weld metal.
: Assuming that the identity of the candidate can be verified this enables us to develop on line training and proof of competence.
: Mail us for a demo at colin@AUTinspectors.com
: Its leaves a small carbon emission footprint because traveling time to personnel testing centres is massively reduced.
: Developed ,not by an academic ,but a UT man with 30 years experience as a QA/QC inspector
------------ End Original Message ------------




 
03:10 Dec-01-2007

Ed Ginzel

R & D, -
Materials Research Institute,
Canada,
Joined Nov 1998
1191
Re: Acceptance of Online Training ----------- Start Original Message -----------
: What is your opinion of online training? Does it meet the definition of training in TC-1a or other documents? Is it acceptable as "organized training"? Does it meet the requirements for formal training?
: Thanks,
: Bill
------------ End Original Message ------------

Bill:
I have been watching this posting since the early part of the year. Personally I believe the options available need only be acknowledged in the Standard Practice to be acceptable to a TC-1A programme. But there is a lot more to it so I have made a lengthy reply that addresses some of the comments that have shown up later in the year (including one or two that I see have been placed in the wrong thread).

This topic is of some interest to me because for nearly 25 years I provided a small group of NDT technicians in Canada with correspondence training to prepare for the government certification exams. My (and the Canadian government) statistics indicated that correspondence students did as well as those having trained in the big schools with so-called practical hands-on training. But most of the students I had in this programme were working in the field in NDT trying to upgrade their certification. As such they were constantly getting their hands-on experience .

The idea of online training or distance learning as a means of getting the concepts of a particular NDT method instilled in a student s mind is not new. In the 1970 s the Canadian CGSB 48-GP programme specifically permitted correspondence training . If you look at all of the syllabi for recommended training topics in the various qualification schemes (ISO, SNT, EN, etc.), you see that they are similar and full of the basic theoretical aspects of the NDT methods. No guidelines in any exist for the specific times and types of hands-on training...just that training hours include both practical and theory courses (as if they are separate entities and may be treated as either/or or both).

NDT is a hands-on trade! It may be nice to see the equipment and how it is used in a classroom; however, the idea that you can make an NDT technician in a classroom is ridiculous. But it seems that this is what industry is now convinced it can do. They would like nothing better than to simply send a person off to school, have them pass a training course of 1-2 weeks and then they can certify them and start charging top dollar for them. On the other side, the student has the same idea; just a week or two of training and I can earn top dollar . (The schools promote this idea too...good for business. The more training that is required the more business there will be for the schools, so you see many school representatives on the certification committees).

With the expectations (by employers and employees) of high earnings that are rationalised by a bit of training and a quick certification, the essentials of NDT being an acquired hands-on skill seems to have evaporated.

No classroom environment can ever provide adequate experience in using the NDT method in a 1-2 week period that could rationalise a student being considered a fully qualified operator. Remember, that 1-2 weeks of training is also supposed to be filled with learning the required theoretical topics.

I have seen examples in the large schools where the so-called practical training may consist of two or three or sometimes four people huddled around a piece of equipment in a classroom for 2-4 hours each day over 5-10 days. Are they really getting a practical training? Perhaps they are getting some exposure to the equipment (which is a very good thing!); but not practical experience using it. Yet this sort of practical training passes for qualification in preparation for certification!

In the rush to certification we see that experience has been diminished by institutionalised policies. ISO 9712 now allows that all of the work experience time to qualify for certification may be had after taking the qualification exams. EN-473 allows that at least some of the required work experience time be taken after the certification exam. In the 1960s and 1970s it was policy to require all work experience as a prerequisite to the certification. This meant that a student fresh out of class was never eligible to write a certification exam (which in Canada and Europe included a practical exam section)! This was equivalent to having medical students put in several years as interns prior to being certified as full doctors&there is no short cut to experience!

For the basics of theory I think there can be several methods to instruct a student. Classrooms, online and distance learning could all provide plausible options. However, to think that a few hours of playing on the tools over a week or two is a substitute for experience is delusional and puts the end goal of certification and money ahead of the development of a competent NDT technician. In Canada we have had some talk of an apprenticeship programme. This is the ideal solution&but it has only been talk for a decade or more.



 
08:04 Dec-02-2007
Brian Tyrie
Re: Acceptance of Online Training I was interested to read Ed Ginzel's discourse on Online Training with a comparison to experience and I have to congratulate him on a very lucid and well written piece.

I agree wholeheartedly with everything he says. With over thirty years experience in this business, I now find that I'm working less and less each year, a situation with which I am certainly not happy. At fifty six, I'm only marginally less fit than I was twenty five years ago and I'm more focussed and energetic than people half my age but my experience, gained in a wide variety of projects worldwide, is hugely greater than it was twenty five years ago.

However, despite the fact that everyone in the industry appears to bemoan the fact that older people are dropping out (who could blame them?) and less and less new blood is coming in ( and who could blame them too?), experienced people, the very commodity which apparently is in short supply, are appearing to be passed over in preference to inexperienced youth.

It ought not to surprise me really for I've seen it all in this game.
Its a business where the unscrupulous profit and succeed and where, in the main, straight, honest genuine proponents of their trade come second to the cowboys, conmen, imposters and cheats who infest this business and have done so for years. In recent years, the rise of agencies and the dearth of bona fide NDT companies has only made matters worse. While, of course, not all agencies are the same, many of them (or perhaps most of them) don't give a damn about the individual, seeing them only as a short term source of profit and, therefore, they consequently don't care if the individual is right for the job or a square, but profitable,
peg in a round hole.

I've watched this business, in which I've spent all of my working life, steadily go downhill over the years and it saddens me to see it the way it now is but this business has only itself to blame, for while training is crucial, of course, far too much emphasis is being placed on it, to the detriment of experience, for reasons which Ed Ginzel has already explained.



 
01:06 Dec-03-2007
Dave
Re: Acceptance of Online Training I believe that online training has a potentially important place today (I am not connected with any online training organisation) but it has to be kept in proportion.
Since engineering was taken over by the accountants it is very difficult to run trainees through a meaningful course. The cost is counted against the bottom line and the shareholders need to see more profit each year.
There is a great need for an apprentice like scheme where structured training can be carried out under the supervision of experienced people who can pass on their years of knowledge, much of which never appears in text books.
The mindset needs to be developed to investigate any unusual occurrence and learn from it, not to discount and forget. A good mentor will give guidance on this.

With the reduction in training offered by the companies, online training offers a good opportunity for those interested to develop themselves. As in all trades, some want to improve themselves and some only want to take home a monthly salary. The good ones will further their education, the poor never progress.

Unfortunately there is a trend to supplying minimum training before the inspector is sent out to earn some money. Some of it possibly due to the mobile labour market? So many get trained then move onto more lucrative deals.

There are a new breed of pretend level III's who undergo a short theory course, take a written exam and come out into the world and get involved in training and certification in methods they have never had hands on experience. What they declared on their application forms for experiene equivalent to a level II isn't for me to say. How many of them could pass a Level II practical exam?
Unfortunately it then becomes self perpetuating with the inexperienced, partly trained passing on their limited knowledge to the next generation.

Without the experience they often work for low wages and the experienced guys get pushed out, sadly in the long run it is the customer who will suffer, hopefully it won't need some major disaster caused by poor NDT to wake up the industry, but I fear it is coming.

Sorry to go off subject but I do feel strongly that training is not keeping up with industries needs (not necesssarily the fault of the consciencious trainers) and that on line training can be a valuable source to enable the potential good inspectors to give themself the best opportunity for advancement. My company for instance has online training available free to all of our inspectors worldwide as well as a team of trainers traveling around the locations all year so we are lucky in that respect.


 
04:13 Dec-12-2007
D.S.KUSHWAH
Re: Acceptance of Online Training ----------- Start Original Message -----------
: I believe that online training has a potentially important place today (I am not connected with any online training organisation) but it has to be kept in proportion.
: Since engineering was taken over by the accountants it is very difficult to run trainees through a meaningful course. The cost is counted against the bottom line and the shareholders need to see more profit each year.
: There is a great need for an apprentice like scheme where structured training can be carried out under the supervision of experienced people who can pass on their years of knowledge, much of which never appears in text books.
: The mindset needs to be developed to investigate any unusual occurrence and learn from it, not to discount and forget. A good mentor will give guidance on this.
: With the reduction in training offered by the companies, online training offers a good opportunity for those interested to develop themselves. As in all trades, some want to improve themselves and some only want to take home a monthly salary. The good ones will further their education, the poor never progress.
: Unfortunately there is a trend to supplying minimum training before the inspector is sent out to earn some money. Some of it possibly due to the mobile labour market? So many get trained then move onto more lucrative deals.
: There are a new breed of pretend level III's who undergo a short theory course, take a written exam and come out into the world and get involved in training and certification in methods they have never had hands on experience. What they declared on their application forms for experiene equivalent to a level II isn't for me to say. How many of them could pass a Level II practical exam?
: Unfortunately it then becomes self perpetuating with the inexperienced, partly trained passing on their limited knowledge to the next generation.
: Without the experience they often work for low wages and the experienced guys get pushed out, sadly in the long run it is the customer who will suffer, hopefully it won't need some major disaster caused by poor NDT to wake up the industry, but I fear it is coming.
: Sorry to go off subject but I do feel strongly that training is not keeping up with industries needs (not necesssarily the fault of the consciencious trainers) and that on line training can be a valuable source to enable the potential good inspectors to give themself the best opportunity for advancement. My company for instance has online training available free to all of our inspectors worldwide as well as a team of trainers traveling around the locations all year so we are lucky in that respect.
------------ End Original Message ------------

I fully agree with your views.In india many employers of NDT technicians employ the personnel certified by Level III freelancers, thinking that the certifcate presented by the prospective employee is the document carrying ASNT approval or endorsement.In fact some of the certificates even carry ASNT logo.Our national society,ISNT is concerned with with this because ISNT is conducts LEVEL III exams in India for ASNT and the abuse of ASNT certification is a big worry.



 
01:43 Dec-13-2007
Dave
Re: Acceptance of Online Training ----------- Start Original Message -----------
: : I believe that online training has a potentially important place today (I am not connected with any online training organisation) but it has to be kept in proportion.
: : Since engineering was taken over by the accountants it is very difficult to run trainees through a meaningful course. The cost is counted against the bottom line and the shareholders need to see more profit each year.
: : There is a great need for an apprentice like scheme where structured training can be carried out under the supervision of experienced people who can pass on their years of knowledge, much of which never appears in text books.
: : The mindset needs to be developed to investigate any unusual occurrence and learn from it, not to discount and forget. A good mentor will give guidance on this.
: : With the reduction in training offered by the companies, online training offers a good opportunity for those interested to develop themselves. As in all trades, some want to improve themselves and some only want to take home a monthly salary. The good ones will further their education, the poor never progress.
: : Unfortunately there is a trend to supplying minimum training before the inspector is sent out to earn some money. Some of it possibly due to the mobile labour market? So many get trained then move onto more lucrative deals.
: : There are a new breed of pretend level III's who undergo a short theory course, take a written exam and come out into the world and get involved in training and certification in methods they have never had hands on experience. What they declared on their application forms for experiene equivalent to a level II isn't for me to say. How many of them could pass a Level II practical exam?
: : Unfortunately it then becomes self perpetuating with the inexperienced, partly trained passing on their limited knowledge to the next generation.
: : Without the experience they often work for low wages and the experienced guys get pushed out, sadly in the long run it is the customer who will suffer, hopefully it won't need some major disaster caused by poor NDT to wake up the industry, but I fear it is coming.
: : Sorry to go off subject but I do feel strongly that training is not keeping up with industries needs (not necesssarily the fault of the consciencious trainers) and that on line training can be a valuable source to enable the potential good inspectors to give themself the best opportunity for advancement. My company for instance has online training available free to all of our inspectors worldwide as well as a team of trainers traveling around the locations all year so we are lucky in that respect.
: I fully agree with your views.In india many employers of NDT technicians employ the personnel certified by Level III freelancers, thinking that the certifcate presented by the prospective employee is the document carrying ASNT approval or endorsement.In fact some of the certificates even carry ASNT logo.Our national society,ISNT isconcerned with with this because ISNT is conducts LEVEL III exams in India for ASNT and the abuse of ASNT certification is a big worry.
------------ End Original Message ------------

Thanks Kushwah for your support, it's not only an Indian problem, and we also see Level II certificates stating ASNT. I make a point of returning them (unless I can verify on the ASNT website) attaching the statement from ASNT on the use of it's name for certificate issue.
Unfortunately many of the client companies don't know any different and these people give the rest of us a bad name with their lack of knowledge and bad advice. As well as driving down pay rates which makes it difficult for many of the experienced and qualified Level II's and Level III's who wonder why they should continue for such poor rewards. Leading to a steady degradation of the general level of competence.
I believe that organisations such as ASNT, etc. should be conducting a vigorous campaign with the end users on how to verify experience and certificate validity to help weed out the imposters. Unfortunately with ASNT apparent policy of accepting experience as stated in application forms it is too easy for anyone to claim experience and sit the written exam. It used to be the case that we had to get sealed independant testimonials for experince verification but that seems to have been dropped in the pursuit of revenue.
I'm sure we all know "Level III's" who have passed the exam and got certificated but have never carried out an inspection in their life.


 
05:16 Dec-15-2007

Gerry King

NDT Inspector, Consultant, Trainer
Ontario Power Generation,
Canada,
Joined Apr 2003
4
Re: Acceptance of Online Training ----------- Start Original Message -----------
: : : I believe that online training has a potentially important place today (I am not connected with any online training organisation) but it has to be kept in proportion.
: : : Since engineering was taken over by the accountants it is very difficult to run trainees through a meaningful course. The cost is counted against the bottom line and the shareholders need to see more profit each year.
: : : There is a great need for an apprentice like scheme where structured training can be carried out under the supervision of experienced people who can pass on their years of knowledge, much of which never appears in text books.
: : : The mindset needs to be developed to investigate any unusual occurrence and learn from it, not to discount and forget. A good mentor will give guidance on this.
: : : With the reduction in training offered by the companies, online training offers a good opportunity for those interested to develop themselves. As in all trades, some want to improve themselves and some only want to take home a monthly salary. The good ones will further their education, the poor never progress.
: : : Unfortunately there is a trend to supplying minimum training before the inspector is sent out to earn some money. Some of it possibly due to the mobile labour market? So many get trained then move onto more lucrative deals.
: : : There are a new breed of pretend level III's who undergo a short theory course, take a written exam and come out into the world and get involved in training and certification in methods they have never had hands on experience. What they declared on their application forms for experiene equivalent to a level II isn't for me to say. How many of them could pass a Level II practical exam?
: : : Unfortunately it then becomes self perpetuating with the inexperienced, partly trained passing on their limited knowledge to the next generation.
: : : Without the experience they often work for low wages and the experienced guys get pushed out, sadly in the long run it is the customer who will suffer, hopefully it won't need some major disaster caused by poor NDT to wake up the industry, but I fear it is coming.
: : : Sorry to go off subject but I do feel strongly that training is not keeping up with industries needs (not necesssarily the fault of the consciencious trainers) and that on line training can be a valuable source to enable the potential good inspectors to give themself the best opportunity for advancement. My company for instance has online training available free to all of our inspectors worldwide as well as a team of trainers traveling around the locations all year so we are lucky in that respect.
: : I fully agree with your views.In india many employers of NDT technicians employ the personnel certified by Level III freelancers, thinking that the certifcate presented by the prospective employee is the document carrying ASNT approval or endorsement.In fact some of the certificates even carry ASNT logo.Our national society,ISNT is concerned with with this because ISNT is conducts LEVEL III exams in India for ASNT and the abuse of ASNT certification is a big worry.
: Thanks Kushwah for your support, it's not only an Indian problem, and we also see Level II certificates stating ASNT. I make a point of returning them (unless I can verify on the ASNT website) attaching the statement from ASNT on the use of it's name for certificate issue.
: Unfortunately many of the client companies don't know any different and these people give the rest of us a bad name with their lack of knowledge and bad advice. As well as driving down pay rates which makes it difficult for many of the experienced and qualified Level II's and Level III's who wonder why they should continue for such poor rewards. Leading to a steady degradation of the general level of competence.
: I believe that organisations such as ASNT, etc. should be conducting a vigorous campaign with the end users on how to verify experience and certificate validity to help weed out the imposters. Unfortunately with ASNT apparent policy of accepting experience as stated in application forms it is too easy for anyone to claim experience and sit the written exam. It used to be the case that we had to get sealed independant testimonials for experince verification but that seems to have been dropped in the pursuit of revenue.
: I'm sure we all know "Level III's" who have passed the exam and got certificated but have never carried out an inspection in their life.
------------ End Original Message ------------

Gentlemen -

I have been following this discussion with some interest, and would like to put my two cents in. I currently work for a Power Generation Facility in Canada which provides Nulear, Fossil and Hydro power. For several years I have been concerned with the quality of the newly certified contract personnel that have passed through our doors. Some of them seem to have very little grasp of the theory and concepts needed to perform the inspections we require, even though we do in-house training for everything that we do. The ability of the new personnel to complete our training successfully has been steadily declining, and sometimes they show little or no grasp of concepts that one would take for granted in a level II.

I know that many of them have taken classroom training and have indicated to me that they were told that the class would teach them everything they need to know to pass the level II exam. I am concerned that these instructors are "teaching to the test" rather than teaching what they need to know to survive in the industry. Often, these instructors are "professional instructors" with little or no practical experience themselves. The result is, as we have seen, that individuals become a level II without haveing the skills to succeed. Inspection Companies don't care about this as long as they have a warm body which they can charge out to a customer. We then have to increase our training efforts to get these new people to the point where they can perform as we need them to.

I agree that some form of apprenticeship is needed in the industry, and that there is a whole lot of expertise out there in the form of Senior Techs with 20 or more years of experience. We should be using these people to bring the entire level of expertise upward. these are the ones who should be teaching the new people entering the industry.

Gerry King


 
00:27 Dec-16-2007

Michael Moles †2014 *1948

,
Joined

Re: Acceptance of Online Training ----------- Start Original Message -----------
: : : : I believe that online training has a potentially important place today (I am not connected with any online training organisation) but it has to be kept in proportion.
: : : : Since engineering was taken over by the accountants it is very difficult to run trainees through a meaningful course. The cost is counted against the bottom line and the shareholders need to see more profit each year.
: : : : There is a great need for an apprentice like scheme where structured training can be carried out under the supervision of experienced people who can pass on their years of knowledge, much of which never appears in text books.
: : : : The mindset needs to be developed to investigate any unusual occurrence and learn from it, not to discount and forget. A good mentor will give guidance on this.
: : : : With the reduction in training offered by the companies, online training offers a good opportunity for those interested to develop themselves. As in all trades, some want to improve themselves and some only want to take home a monthly salary. The good ones will further their education, the poor never progress.
: : : : Unfortunately there is a trend to supplying minimum training before the inspector is sent out to earn some money. Some of it possibly due to the mobile labour market? So many get trained then move onto more lucrative deals.
: : : : There are a new breed of pretend level III's who undergo a short theory course, take a written exam and come out into the world and get involved in training and certification in methods they have never had hands on experience. What they declared on their application forms for experiene equivalent to a level II isn't for me to say. How many of them could pass a Level II practical exam?
: : : : Unfortunately it then becomes self perpetuating with the inexperienced, partly trained passing on their limited knowledge to the next generation.
: : : : Without the experience they often work for low wages and the experienced guys get pushed out, sadly in the long run it is the customer who will suffer, hopefully it won't need some major disaster caused by poor NDT to wake up the industry, but I fear it is coming.
: : : : Sorry to go off subject but I do feel strongly that training is not keeping up with industries needs (not necesssarily the fault of the consciencious trainers) and that on line training can be a valuable source to enable the potential good inspectors to give themself the best opportunity for advancement. My company for instance has online training available free to all of our inspectors worldwide as well as a team of trainers traveling around the locations all year so we are lucky in that respect.
: : : I fully agree with your views.In india many employers of NDT technicians employ the personnel certified by Level III freelancers, thinking that the certifcate presented by the prospective employee is the document carrying ASNT approval or endorsement.In fact some of the certificates even carry ASNT logo.Our national society,ISNT is concerned with with this because ISNT is conducts LEVEL III exams in India for ASNT and the abuse of ASNT certification is a big worry.
: : Thanks Kushwah for your support, it's not only an Indian problem, and we also see Level II certificates stating ASNT. I make a point of returning them (unless I can verify on the ASNT website) attaching the statement from ASNT on the use of it's name for certificate issue.
: : Unfortunately many of the client companies don't know any different and these people give the rest of us a bad name with their lack of knowledge and bad advice. As well as driving down pay rates which makes it difficult for many of the experienced and qualified Level II's and Level III's who wonder why they should continue for such poor rewards. Leading to a steady degradation of the general level of competence.
: : I believe that organisations such as ASNT, etc. should be conducting a vigorous campaign with the end users on how to verify experience and certificate validity to help weed out the imposters. Unfortunately with ASNT apparent policy of accepting experience as stated in application forms it is too easy for anyone to claim experience and sit the written exam. It used to be the case that we had to get sealed independant testimonials for experince verification but that seems to have been dropped in the pursuit of revenue.
: : I'm sure we all know "Level III's" who have passed the exam and got certificated but have never carried out an inspection in their life.
: Gentlemen -
: I have been following this discussion with some interest, and would like to put my two cents in. I currently work for a Power Generation Facility in Canada which provides Nulear, Fossil and Hydro power. For several years I have been concerned with the quality of the newly certified contract personnel that have passed through our doors. Some of them seem to have very little grasp of the theory and concepts needed to perform the inspections we require, even though we do in-house training for everything that we do. The ability of the new personnel to complete our training successfully has been steadily declining, and sometimes they show little or no grasp of concepts that one would take for granted in a level II.
: I know that many of them have taken classroom training and have indicated to me that they were told that the class would teach them everything they need to know to pass the level II exam. I am concerned that these instructors are "teaching to the test" rather than teaching what they need to know to survive in the industry. Often, these instructors are "professional instructors" with little or no practical experience themselves. The result is, as we have seen, that individuals become a level II without haveing the skills to succeed. Inspection Companies don't care about this as long as they have a warm body which they can charge out to a customer. We then have to increase our training efforts to get these new people to the point where they can perform as we need them to.
: I agree that some form of apprenticeship is needed in the industry, and that there is a whole lot of expertise out there in the form of Senior Techs with 20 or more years of experience. We should be using these people to bring the entire level of expertise upward. these are the ones who should be teaching the new people entering the industry.
: Gerry King
------------ End Original Message ------------
Gerry:

An apprenticeship program would be a good idea. It may be much easier to implement in Canada than in the US. Do you know if there is any support in industry for this?

Michael Moles




 
05:07 Dec-19-2007

S.R.G.PRABHU

Consultant, AUT specialist
FREELANCE,
India,
Joined Aug 2008
63
Re: Acceptance of Online Training
To continue with certification, it is found in UAE,OMAN,and Qatar,with various employers insist on CSWIP certified welding inspectors only. I am a SCWI, and also ASNT LEVEL III. I worked in Oman and Qatar sometime...I worked as techinician in my early years and I am an inspection supervisor now, in an offshore platform for a wellknown operator. I am also certified in AUT from CSWIP.
The thing is I met some people who have 'passed' CSWIP 3.1 but doesn't know what is a WPS!!!! So, I think , it is the fault of employers to recruit personnel ,entirely based on CV's!! Why not a telephonic interview?Even a time based online screening exam?
Although the exams differ in AWS scheme or CSWIP, both certification lead to same job with only the candidates's own ability to learn further and adapt difficult situations in work differs.

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: : : : : I believe that online training has a potentially important place today (I am not connected with any online training organisation) but it has to be kept in proportion.
: : : : : Since engineering was taken over by the accountants it is very difficult to run trainees through a meaningful course. The cost is counted against the bottom line and the shareholders need to see more profit each year.
: : : : : There is a great need for an apprentice like scheme where structured training can be carried out under the supervision of experienced people who can pass on their years of knowledge, much of which never appears in text books.
: : : : : The mindset needs to be developed to investigate any unusual occurrence and learn from it, not to discount and forget. A good mentor will give guidance on this.
: : : : : With the reduction in training offered by the companies, online training offers a good opportunity for those interested to develop themselves. As in all trades, some want to improve themselves and some only want to take home a monthly salary. The good ones will further their education, the poor never progress.
: : : : : Unfortunately there is a trend to supplying minimum training before the inspector is sent out to earn some money. Some of it possibly due to the mobile labour market? So many get trained then move onto more lucrative deals.
: : : : : There are a new breed of pretend level III's who undergo a short theory course, take a written exam and come out into the world and get involved in training and certification in methods they have never had hands on experience. What they declared on their application forms for experiene equivalent to a level II isn't for me to say. How many of them could pass a Level II practical exam?
: : : : : Unfortunately it then becomes self perpetuating with the inexperienced, partly trained passing on their limited knowledge to the next generation.
: : : : : Without the experience they often work for low wages and the experienced guys get pushed out, sadly in the long run it is the customer who will suffer, hopefully it won't need some major disaster caused by poor NDT to wake up the industry, but I fear it is coming.
: : : : : Sorry to go off subject but I do feel strongly that training is not keeping up with industries needs (not necesssarily the fault of the consciencious trainers) and that on line training can be a valuable source to enable the potential good inspectors to give themself the best opportunity for advancement. My company for instance has online training available free to all of our inspectors worldwide as well as a team of trainers traveling around the locations all year so we are lucky in that respect.
: : : : I fully agree with your views.In india many employers of NDT technicians employ the personnel certified by Level III freelancers, thinking that the certifcate presented by the prospective employee is the document carrying ASNT approval or endorsement.In fact some of the certificates even carry ASNT logo.Our national society,ISNT is concerned with with this because ISNT is conducts LEVEL III exams in India for ASNT and the abuse of ASNTcertification is a big worry.
: : : Thanks Kushwah for your support, it's not only an Indian problem, and we also see Level II certificates stating ASNT. I make a point of returning them (unless I can verify on the ASNT website) attaching the statement from ASNT on the use of it's name for certificate issue.
: : : Unfortunately many of the client companies don't know any different and these people give the rest of us a bad name with their lack of knowledge and bad advice. As well as driving down pay rates which makes it difficult for many of the experienced and qualified Level II's and Level III's who wonder why they should continue for such poor rewards. Leading to a steady degradation of the general level of competence.
: : : I believe that organisations such as ASNT, etc. should be conducting a vigorous campaign with the end users on how to verify experience and certificate validity to help weed out the imposters. Unfortunately with ASNT apparent policy of accepting experience as stated in application forms it is too easy for anyone to claim experience and sit the written exam. It used to be the case that we had to get sealed independant testimonials for experince verification but that seems to have been dropped in the pursuit of revenue.
: : : I'm sure we all know "Level III's" who have passed the exam and got certificated but have never carried out an inspection in their life.
: : Gentlemen -
: : I have been following this discussion with some interest, and would like to put my two cents in. I currently work for a Power Generation Facility in Canada which provides Nulear, Fossil and Hydro power. For several years I have been concerned with the quality of the newly certified contract personnel that have passed through our doors. Some of them seem to have very little grasp of the theory and concepts needed to perform the inspections we require, even though we do in-house training for everything that we do. The ability of the new personnel to complete our training successfully has beensteadily declining, and sometimes they show little or no grasp of concepts that one would take for granted in a level II.
: : I know that many of them have taken classroom training and have indicated to me that they were told that the class would teach them everything they need to know to pass the level II exam. I am concerned that these instructors are "teaching to the test" rather than teaching what they need to know to survive in the industry. Often, these instructors are "professional instructors" with little or no practical experience themselves. The result is, as we have seen, that individuals become a level II without haveing the skills to succeed. Inspection Companies don't care about this as long as they have a warm body which they can charge out to a customer. We then have to increase our training efforts to get these new people to the point where they can perform as we need them to.
: : I agree that some form of apprenticeship is needed in the industry, and that there is a whole lot of expertise out there in the form of Senior Techs with 20 or more years of experience. We should be using these people to bring the entire level of expertise upward. these are the ones who should be teaching the new people entering the industry.
: : Gerry King
: Gerry:
: An apprenticeship program would be a good idea. It may be much easier to implement in Canada than in the US. Do you know if there is any support in industry for this?
: Michael Moles
------------ End Original Message ------------




 
06:32 Dec-19-2007

John Brunk

Engineering, NDT Level III
Self employed, part-time,
USA,
Joined Oct 1999
157
Re: Acceptance of Online Training ----------- Start Original Message -----------
On numerous occassions I have provided follow-on job-specific training at an employer's place of business, after employees had returned from a formal Level II course with passing marks, only to discover that they were not at all prepared to perform the specific work required by their jobs. These have mostly been situations in manufacturing plants, where there are fewer and less complex variables than in field work and/or maintenance inspections. Experience as a trainee and then as a Level I is supposed to be effectively an apprentice program/on the job training; but somehow it often doesn't seem to work out that way. When counting experience the concept of RELEVANT experience can easily be ignored. Relying more on online training can only make the problem worse. :

: To continue with certification, it is found in UAE,OMAN,and Qatar,with various employers insist on CSWIP certified welding inspectors only. I am a SCWI, and also ASNT LEVEL III. Iworked in Oman and Qatar sometime...I worked as techinician in my early years and I am an inspection supervisor now, in an offshore platform for a wellknown operator. I am also certified in AUT from CSWIP.
: The thing is I met some people who have 'passed' CSWIP 3.1 but doesn't know what is a WPS!!!! So, I think , it is the fault of employers to recruit personnel ,entirely based on CV's!! Why not a telephonic interview?Even a time based online screening exam?
: Although the exams differ in AWS scheme or CSWIP, both certification lead to same job with only the candidates's own ability to learn further and adapt difficult situations in work differs.
: : : : : : I believe that online training has a potentially important place today (I am not connected with any online training organisation) but it has to be kept in proportion.
: : : : : : Since engineering was taken over by the accountants it is very difficult to run trainees through a meaningful course. The cost is counted against the bottom line and the shareholders need to see more profit each year.
: : : : : : There is a great need for an apprentice like scheme where structured training can be carried out under the supervision of experienced people who can pass on their years of knowledge, much of which never appears in text books.
: : : : : : The mindset needs to be developed to investigate any unusual occurrence and learn from it, not to discount and forget. A good mentor will give guidance on this.
: : : : : : With the reduction in training offered by the companies, online training offers a good opportunity for those interested to develop themselves. As in all trades, some want to improve themselves and some only want to take home a monthly salary. The good ones will further their education, the poor never progress.
: : : : : : Unfortunately there is a trend to supplying minimum training before the inspector is sent out to earn some money. Some of it possibly due to the mobile labour market? So many get trained then move onto more lucrative deals.
: : : : : : There are a new breed of pretend level III's who undergo a short theory course, take a written exam and come out into the world and get involved in training and certification in methods they have never had hands on experience. What they declared on their application forms for experiene equivalent to a level II isn't for me to say. How many of them could pass a Level II practical exam?
: : : : : : Unfortunately it then becomes self perpetuating with the inexperienced, partly trained passing on their limited knowledge to the next generation.
: : : : : : Without the experience they often work for low wages and the experienced guys get pushed out, sadly in the long run it is the customer who will suffer, hopefully it won't need some major disaster caused by poor NDT to wake up the industry, but I fear it is coming.
: : : : : : Sorry to go off subject but I do feel strongly that training is not keeping up with industries needs (not necesssarily the fault of the consciencious trainers) and that on line training can be a valuable source to enable the potential good inspectors to give themself the best opportunity for advancement. My company for instance has online training available free to all of our inspectors worldwide as well as a team of trainers traveling around the locations all year so we are lucky in that respect.
: : : : : I fully agree with your views.In india many employers of NDT technicians employ the personnel certified by Level III freelancers, thinking that the certifcate presented by the prospective employee is the document carrying ASNT approval or endorsement.In fact some of the certificates even carry ASNT logo.Our national society,ISNT is concerned with with this because ISNT is conducts LEVEL III exams in India for ASNT and the abuse of ASNT certification is a big worry.
: : : : Thanks Kushwah for your support, it's not only an Indian problem, and we also see Level II certificates stating ASNT. I make a point of returning them (unless I can verify on the ASNT website) attaching the statement from ASNT on the use of it's name for certificate issue.
: : : : Unfortunately many of the client companies don't know any different and these people give the rest of us a bad name with their lack of knowledge and bad advice. As well as driving down pay rates which makes it difficult for many of the experienced and qualified Level II's and Level III's who wonder why they should continue for such poor rewards. Leading to a steady degradation of the general level of competence.
: : : : I believe that organisations such as ASNT, etc. should be conducting a vigorous campaign with the end users on how to verify experience and certificate validity to help weed out the imposters. Unfortunately with ASNT apparent policy of accepting experience as stated in application forms it is too easy for anyone to claim experience and sit the written exam. It used to be the case that we had to get sealed independant testimonials for experince verification but that seems to have been dropped in the pursuit of revenue.
: : : : I'm sure we all know "Level III's" who have passed the exam and got certificated but have never carried out an inspection in their life.
: : : Gentlemen -
: : : I have been following this discussion with some interest, and would like to put my two cents in. I currently work for a Power Generation Facility in Canada which provides Nulear, Fossil and Hydro power. For several years I have been concerned with the quality of the newly certified contract personnel that have passed through our doors. Some of them seem to have very little grasp of the theory and concepts needed to perform the inspections we require, even though we do in-house training for everything that we do. The ability of the new personnel to complete our training successfully has been steadily declining, and sometimes they show little or no grasp of concepts that one would take for granted in a level II.
: : : I know that many of them have taken classroom training and have indicated to me that they were told that the class would teach them everything they need to know to pass the level II exam. I am concerned that these instructors are "teaching to the test" rather than teaching what they need to know to survive in the industry. Often, these instructors are "professional instructors" with little or no practical experience themselves. The result is, as we have seen, that individuals become a level II without haveing the skills to succeed. Inspection Companies don't care about this as long as they have a warm body which they can charge out to a customer. We then have to increase our training efforts to get these new people to the point where they can perform as we need them to.
: : : I agree that some form of apprenticeship is needed in the industry, and that there is a whole lot of expertise out there in the form of Senior Techs with 20 or more years of experience. We should be using these people to bring the entire level of expertise upward. these are the ones who should be teaching the new people entering the industry.
: : : Gerry King
: : Gerry:
: : An apprenticeship program would be a good idea. It may be much easier to implement in Canada than in the US. Do you know if there is any support in industry for this?
: : Michael Moles
------------ End Original Message ------------




 
02:33 Feb-14-2008
kent
Re: Acceptance of Online Training Yea, fine but!

I have a small propeller Repair Station. I have a limited number of parts to NDI. All small parts. I don't think I need a bull blown training course which covers all the various kinds of NDI. I have a small hand held Eddy current tester, a small hand held Marnetic Particle tester and a small hand held Rockwell tester.

None of these instruments require any more experience, knowledge, skill or training than one would need to use a torque wrench.

My comment is; Why call a surgeon for a hang nail operation?

The extent of training should be commensurate with the size of the needs.

Don't you think?


 
06:26 Feb-15-2008

James Gauthier

NDT Inspector, Operations Manager
GE Inspection Services,
USA,
Joined Nov 2007
25
Re: Acceptance of Online Training ----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Yea, fine but!
: I have a small propeller Repair Station. I have a limited number of parts to NDI. All small parts. I don't think I need a bull blown training course which covers all the various kinds of NDI. I have a small hand held Eddy current tester, a small hand held Marnetic Particle tester and a small hand held Rockwell tester.
: None of these instruments require any more experience, knowledge, skill or training than one would need to use a torque wrench.
: My comment is; Why call a surgeon for a hang nail operation?
: The extent of training should be commensurate with the size of the needs.
: Don't you think?
------------ End Original Message ------------
First I want to understand what you mean by Full Blown Training course that covers all the various kinds of NDE Inspection. You can take courses that are specific to the testing that you perform. You do not need to take every course out there in order to perform the limited testing that you do.

Having said that, it is extremely important that you take the required courses for the disciplines and techniques that you utilize day to day in your small business. If you want to deliver a quality product, you cannot skimp out in the training costs associated with the inspection process of your product.

You can find many types of courses that would be a lot more suitable with your inspection needs.

Having proper certifications and training in the various disciplines that you provide will give you and your customers the confidence in the product you deliver as well as the necessary documentation in the event you have disputes over the quality of your product.





 
03:58 Feb-15-2008

Dave Utrata

R & D,
Center for NDE, Iowa State University,
USA,
Joined Feb 2000
37
Re: Acceptance of Online Training ----------- Original Message -----------
:
: None of these instruments require any more experience, knowledge, skill or training than one would need to use a torque wrench.
------------ End Original Message ------------

Sorry, but that phrase is just wrong on so many levels.

This is precisely why training should be done properly. The alternative is to get just good enough to do a job, while not understanding what's going on and being unable to adapt to any changes.

When using any NDT methodology it is far too easy to have a minimally trained operator perform a repetitive task and think no creativity or insight is required. I encounter this situation when manufacturers are quite certain that they are 'properly' performing an inspection, and an adverse outcome is just not understandable.

If one doesn't realize that NDT is demanding and challenging to implement correctly, and this WILL require training and experience, one is only waiting for bad things to happen.


 
01:56 Feb-16-2008

Floyd Atkinson

NDT Inspector
American Inspection Society, Inc.,
USA,
Joined Jun 2004
10
Re: Acceptance of Online Training REPLY:

James ,

The acceptance of the outside of manufacturing testing agency determines the validity of the testing authority. The extensive testing expierence and affiliation with known associates can be vidal in the wall paper. I believe that one will determine the quality of a small vendors product by the back up STANDARDIZATIONS and the SUPPLIERS PRODUCT ASSURANCE (SPA) documents. The written companies established testing procedures is proof than the testing is performed the same way everytime by a competent nondestructive testing technician. I have SAP documents come across my desk everyday but they are not valid because the dimensional documents are not valid simply because the measuring instruments that they used to perform the work is not in current calibration with the known national standard. The dimensional measurements should have more than three dimensions like length, thickness and width as measured in several places and in accordance with current design engineer APPROVED FOR FABRICATIONstamped drawing.

Now critical dimensions or NDT photos may be attached to the SPA document.

Enough said. Show me, what good is the work if it isn't valid.

Signed:
Old NDT geezer.

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: : Yea, fine but!
: : I have a small propeller Repair Station. I have a limited number of parts to NDI. All small parts. I don't think I need a bull blown training course which covers all the various kinds of NDI. I have a small hand held Eddy current tester, a small hand held Marnetic Particle tester and a small hand held Rockwell tester.
: : None of these instruments require any more experience, knowledge, skill or training than one would need to use a torque wrench.
: : My comment is; Why call a surgeon for a hang nail operation?
: : The extent of training should be commensurate with the size of the needs.
: : Don't you think?
: First I want to understand what you mean by Full Blown Training course that covers all the various kinds of NDE Inspection. You can take courses that are specific to the testing that you perform. You do not need to take every course out there in order to perform the limited testing that you do.
: Having said that, it is extremely important that you take the required courses for the disciplines and techniques that you utilize day to day in your small business. If you want to deliver a quality product, you cannot skimp out in the training costs associated with the inspection process of your product.
: You can find many types of courses that would be a lot more suitable with your inspection needs.
: Having proper certifications and training in the various disciplines that you provide will give you and your customers the confidence in the product you deliver as well as the necessary documentation in the event you have disputes over the quality of your product.
------------ End Original Message ------------




 


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