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03:50 Oct-27-2008

Davie Armit

NDT Inspector,
Applus RTD,
United Kingdom,
Joined Dec 2004
13
EN 473

Can anyone explain the main differences in EN 473 & PCN.I understand that PCN meets EN 473 requiements but can EN 473 be used internally similar to that of SNTC-1A for training and qualification?


 
09:52 Oct-29-2008

Nigel Armstrong

Engineering, - Specialist services
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 2000
1094
Re: EN 473 Davie

EN 473 is the European standard for certification of NDT personnel which, because of the UK's membership of the European standards organisation (CEN), has to be published in the UK. Most CEN countries have their own national personnel certification scheme such as Nordtest in Scandinavia and Cofrend in France, typically under the auspices of the national NDT society.

The body administering a scheme is the certification body which has to meet the requirements of EN45013 - General criteria for certification bodies operating certification of personnel. PCN is a certification body assessed and accredited by UKAS (UK Accreditation Service).

PCN issues procedures for training, examination and certification following the rules and requirements of EN 473 and ensures that the Authorised Qualifying Bodies and training and examination centres follow these rules.

There are other European and international standards (EN 4179, ISO 9712) for certifcation of NDT personnel, so the PCN/EN 473 relationship doesnot preclude PCN from participating in other certification schemes, it just happens that EN 473 is its biggest money-spinner.

The last part of your question is, I believe, a resounding NO - as a technician, a professional NDT engineer, an auditor and in my current guise working for an independent verification body to me the whole principle of EN 473 is independence of the certification scheme. So no employer can adopt parts of EN 473 into the company certification scheme and then claim that the scheme is EN 473 compliant. Though nothing to stop said employer adopting the training syllabus and examination format of EN 473 within the SNT-TC-1A scheme as long as EN 473 does not appear on the certificate.

Cheers

Nigel

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Can anyone explain the main differences in EN 473 & PCN.I understand that PCN meets EN 473 requiements but can EN 473 be used internally similar to that of SNTC-1A for training and qualification?
------------ End Original Message ------------




 
09:09 Oct-30-2008

Davie Armit

NDT Inspector,
Applus RTD,
United Kingdom,
Joined Dec 2004
13
Re: EN 473 ----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Davie
: EN 473 is the European standard for certification of NDT personnel which, because of the UK's membership of the European standards organisation (CEN), has to be published in the UK. Most CEN countries have their own national personnel certification scheme such as Nordtest in Scandinavia and Cofrend in France, typically under the auspices of the national NDT society.
: The body administering a scheme is the certification body which has to meet the requirements of EN45013 - General criteria for certification bodies operating certification of personnel. PCN is a certification body assessed and accredited by UKAS (UK Accreditation Service).
: PCN issues procedures for training, examination and certification following the rules and requirements of EN 473 and ensures that the Authorised Qualifying Bodies and training and examination centres follow these rules.
: There are other European and international standards (EN 4179, ISO 9712) for certifcation of NDT personnel, so the PCN/EN 473 relationship does not preclude PCN from participating in other certification schemes, it just happens that EN 473 is its biggest money-spinner.
: The last part of your question is, I believe, a resounding NO - as a technician, a professional NDT engineer, an auditor and in my current guise working for an independent verification body to me the whole principle of EN 473 is independence of the certification scheme. So no employer can adopt parts of EN 473 into the company certification scheme and then claim that the scheme is EN 473 compliant. Though nothing to stop said employer adopting the training syllabus and examination format of EN 473 within the SNT-TC-1A scheme as long as EN 473 does not appear on the certificate.
: Cheers
: Nigel
: : Can anyone explain the main differences in EN 473 & PCN.I understand that PCN meets EN 473 requiements but can EN 473 be used internally similar to that of SNTC-1A for training and qualification?
------------ End Original Message ------------

Thanks very much for that Nigel.
One of the main reasons for my original question is because I now notice a few major inspection companies are now using the EN 473 system for Technician approval instead of PCN and certificates are endorsed by third party inspection agencies.
Are we now seeing the end of PCN?

Cheers,
Davie



 
00:39 Oct-30-2008

Joe Buckley

Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 1999
515
Re: EN 473 Can you be a bit more specific on the 'third-party inspection agencies'
As i understand EN473, certification authority generally derives from one of the appropriate national certification authorities.
So if anyone not operating under PCN is certifying EN473 in the UK, or under the authority of an equivalent national body in another country, I'd be surprised.
PCN /BINDT is (I think) the only one that operate internationally to any significant extent.


----------- Start Original Message -----------
: : Davie
: : EN 473 is the European standard for certification of NDT personnel which, because of the UK's membership of the European standards organisation (CEN), has to be published in the UK. Most CEN countries have their own national personnel certification scheme such as Nordtest in Scandinavia and Cofrend in France, typically under the auspices of the national NDT society.
: : The body administering a scheme is the certification body which has to meet the requirements of EN45013 - General criteria for certification bodies operating certification of personnel. PCN is a certification body assessed and accredited by UKAS (UK Accreditation Service).
: : PCN issues procedures for training, examination and certification following the rules and requirements of EN 473 and ensures that the Authorised Qualifying Bodies and training and examination centres follow these rules.
: : There are other European and international standards (EN 4179, ISO 9712) for certifcation of NDT personnel, so the PCN/EN 473 relationship does not preclude PCN from participating in other certification schemes, it just happens that EN 473 is its biggest money-spinner.
: : The last part of your question is, I believe, a resounding NO - as a technician, a professional NDT engineer, an auditor and in my current guise working for an independent verification body to me the whole principle of EN 473 is independence of the certification scheme. So no employer can adopt parts of EN 473 into the company certification scheme and then claim that the scheme is EN 473 compliant. Though nothing to stop said employer adopting the training syllabus and examination format of EN 473 within the SNT-TC-1A scheme as long as EN 473 does not appear on the certificate.
: : Cheers
: : Nigel
: : : Can anyone explain the main differences in EN 473 & PCN.I understand that PCN meets EN 473 requiements but can EN 473 be used internally similar to that of SNTC-1A for training and qualification?
: Thanks very much for that Nigel.
: One of the main reasons for my original question is because I now notice a few major inspection companies are now using the EN 473 system for Technician approval instead of PCN and certificates are endorsed by third party inspection agencies.
: Are we now seeing the end of PCN?
: Cheers,
: Davie
------------ End Original Message ------------




 
01:32 Oct-30-2008
NEELA
Re: EN 473 For certification of TOFD/PHASED ARRAY required PCN/EN473 qualification or any other alternate route to require this certification,any info welcome
---------- Start Original Message -----------
: Can you be a bit more specific on the 'third-party inspection agencies'
: As i understand EN473, certification authority generally derives from one of the appropriate national certification authorities.
: So if anyone not operating under PCN is certifying EN473 in the UK, or under the authority of an equivalent national body in another country, I'd be surprised.
: PCN /BINDT is (I think) the only one that operate internationally to any significant extent.
:
: : : Davie
: : : EN 473 is the European standard for certification of NDT personnel which, because of the UK's membership of the European standards organisation (CEN), has to be published in the UK. Most CEN countries have their own national personnel certification scheme such as Nordtest in Scandinavia and Cofrend in France, typically under the auspices of the national NDT society.
: : : The body administering a scheme is the certification body which has to meet the requirements of EN45013 - General criteria for certification bodies operating certification of personnel. PCN is a certification body assessed and accredited by UKAS (UK Accreditation Service).
: : : PCN issues procedures for training, examination and certification following the rules and requirements of EN 473 and ensures that the Authorised Qualifying Bodies and training and examination centres follow these rules.
: : : There are other European and international standards (EN 4179, ISO 9712) for certifcation of NDT personnel, so the PCN/EN 473 relationship does not preclude PCN from participating in other certification schemes, it just happens that EN 473 is its biggest money-spinner.
: : : The last part of your question is, I believe, a resounding NO - as a technician, a professional NDT engineer, an auditor and in my current guise working for an independent verification body to me the whole principle of EN 473 is independence of the certification scheme. So no employer can adopt parts of EN 473 into the company certification scheme and then claim that the scheme is EN 473 compliant. Though nothing to stop said employer adopting the training syllabus and examination format of EN 473 within the SNT-TC-1A scheme as long as EN 473 does not appear on the certificate.
: : : Cheers
: : : Nigel
: : : : Can anyone explain the main differences in EN 473 & PCN.I understand that PCN meets EN 473 requiements but can EN 473 be used internally similar to that of SNTC-1A for training and qualification?
: : Thanks very much for that Nigel.
: : One of the main reasons for my original question is because I now notice a few major inspection companies are now using the EN 473 system for Technician approval instead of PCN and certificates are endorsed by third party inspection agencies.
: : Are we now seeing the end of PCN?
: : Cheers,
: : Davie
------------ End Original Message ------------




 
01:51 Oct-30-2008

Davie Armit

NDT Inspector,
Applus RTD,
United Kingdom,
Joined Dec 2004
13
Re: EN 473 ----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Can you be a bit more specific on the 'third-party inspection agencies'
: As i understand EN473, certification authority generally derives from one of the appropriate national certification authorities.
: So if anyone not operating under PCN is certifying EN473 in the UK, or under the authority of an equivalent national body in another country, I'd be surprised.
: PCN /BINDT is (I think) the only one that operate internationally to any significant extent.
:
: : : Davie
: : : EN 473 is the European standard for certification of NDT personnel which, because of the UK's membership of the European standards organisation (CEN), has to be published in the UK. Most CEN countries have their own national personnel certification scheme such as Nordtest in Scandinavia and Cofrend in France, typically under the auspices of the national NDT society.
: : : The body administering a scheme is the certification body which has to meet the requirements of EN45013 - General criteria for certification bodies operating certification of personnel. PCN is a certification body assessed and accredited by UKAS (UK Accreditation Service).
: : : PCN issues procedures for training, examination and certification following the rules and requirements of EN 473 and ensures that the Authorised Qualifying Bodies and training and examination centres follow these rules.
: : : There are other European and international standards (EN 4179, ISO 9712) for certifcation of NDT personnel, so the PCN/EN 473 relationship does not preclude PCN from participating in other certification schemes, it just happens that EN 473 is its biggest money-spinner.
: : : The last part of your question is, I believe, a resounding NO - as a technician, a professional NDT engineer, an auditor and in my current guise working for an independent verification body to me the whole principle of EN 473 is independence of the certification scheme. So no employer can adopt parts of EN 473 into the company certification scheme and then claim that the scheme is EN 473 compliant. Though nothing to stop said employer adopting the training syllabus and examination format of EN 473 within the SNT-TC-1A scheme as long as EN 473 does not appear on the certificate.
: : : Cheers
: : : Nigel
: : : : Can anyone explain the main differences in EN 473 & PCN.I understand that PCN meets EN 473 requiements but can EN 473 be used internally similar to that of SNTC-1A for training and qualification?
: : Thanks very much for that Nigel.
: : One of the main reasons for my original question is because I now notice a few major inspection companies are now using the EN 473 system for Technician approval instead of PCN and certificates are endorsed by third party inspection agencies.
: : Are we now seeing the end of PCN?
: : Cheers,
: : Davie
------------ End Original Message ------------

Thanks Joe,

Lloyds Register are being used to endorse this Certification.
Is there a possible Loop Hole in the EN 473 system?





 
07:50 Oct-30-2008

Nigel Armstrong

Engineering, - Specialist services
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 2000
1094
Re: EN 473 Davie

Reading sections 5.1. and 5.2. of EN 473 and your own PCN certificate will give you some guidance through the labyrinth that is NDT personnel certification. Properly administered and auditable SNT-TC-1a cuts out so much bulls**t but unfortunately, the exponential increase in ASNT Level III certificates and certain less reputable practices such as grandfathering has opened up doubts about the inegrity of some schemes administration)

PCN certificates are issued by BINDT accredited by UKAS, the UK national accreditation body, which is a signatory to recognition agreements with other national accreditation bodies. BINDT is a signatory to and registered under a European Federation for NDT (EFNDT)Multilateral Mutual Recognition Agreement which means PCN certificates are recognised by all EFNDT signatory bodies, likewise PCN recognises COFREND and DZP certificates amongst others appearing on the MRA.

Every EN 473 certificate must be issued by a certification body accredited by a national accreditation body as meeting EN 45013, or more recently ISO 17024. UKAS has accredited about 20 bodies against 17024 for the certification of personnel, any one of which could implement and be audited to EN 473.

What I am trying to show is that EN 473 is just a document, it is the accredited bodies operating personnel certification schemes which give broader value to the certificates because they are recognised nationally and internationally as guaranteeing standardisation of levels of competence of certified personnel.

Now I am not certain that I understand exactly what problem you are highlighting. From your 1st post "can EN 473 be used internally similar to that of SNTC-1A for training and qualification", I thought you were indicating an employer issuing a technician qualification certificate citing EN 473. However after your 2nd post I am not so certain that is your intention - "major inspection companies are now using the EN 473 system for Technician approval instead of PCN". Finally you state a third partyinspection agency is endorsing certificates.

Each PCN (and perhaps other schemes') certificate contains a space for Employer's Authorisation, though I have never seen this filled out and I dont think this is what you mean by EN 473 used internally.

There are some regulatory and contractual constraints on certification schemes, for the Pressure Equipment Directive EN 473 certification is mandatory, but still the inspection company can have its employees certificated under any EN 473 scheme, even in the UK it does not have to be PCN. CSWIP is also EN473 compliant and accredited by UKAS.

Inspection agency employees regularly review fabrication records which contain personnel certificates. Why they should need to endorse them I dont know I would have thought that "reporting by exception" would be sufficient.

Finally is that wishful thinking on your part Davie - the "end" of PCN. Well, who knows, who could foretell the end of the "evil empire", the USSR and the downfall of communism. PCN and its commissars may fall from grace, but usually any such fall is broken by a carefully prepared feather bed because commissars of evil empires tend to have well prepared escape routes.

Time for bed!

Best regards

Nigel


----------- Start Original Message -----------
: : Davie
: : EN 473 is the European standard for certification of NDT personnel which, because of the UK's membership of the European standards organisation (CEN), has to be published in the UK. Most CEN countries have their own national personnel certification scheme such as Nordtest in Scandinavia and Cofrend in France, typically under the auspices of the national NDT society.
: : The body administering a scheme is the certification body which has to meet the requirements of EN45013 - General criteria for certification bodies operating certification of personnel. PCN is a certification body assessed and accredited by UKAS (UK Accreditation Service).
: : PCN issues procedures for training, examination and certification following the rules and requirements of EN 473 and ensures that the Authorised Qualifying Bodies and training and examination centres follow these rules.
: : There are other European and international standards (EN 4179, ISO 9712) for certifcation of NDT personnel, so the PCN/EN 473 relationship does not preclude PCN from participating in other certification schemes, it just happens that EN 473 is its biggest money-spinner.
: : The last part of your question is, I believe, a resounding NO - as a technician, a professional NDT engineer, an auditor and in my current guise working for an independent verification body to me the whole principle of EN 473 is independence of the certification scheme. So no employer can adopt parts of EN 473 into the company certification scheme and then claim that the scheme is EN 473 compliant. Though nothing to stop said employer adopting the training syllabus and examination format of EN 473 within the SNT-TC-1A scheme as long as EN 473 does not appear on the certificate.
: : Cheers
: : Nigel
: : : Can anyone explain the main differences in EN 473 & PCN.I understand that PCN meets EN 473 requiements but can EN 473 be used internally similar to that of SNTC-1A for training and qualification?
: Thanks very much for that Nigel.
: One of the main reasons for my original question is because I now notice a few major inspection companies are now using the EN 473 system for Technician approval instead of PCN and certificates are endorsed by third party inspection agencies.
: Are we now seeing the end of PCN?
: Cheers,
: Davie
------------ End Original Message ------------




 
00:54 Oct-31-2008

Davie Armit

NDT Inspector,
Applus RTD,
United Kingdom,
Joined Dec 2004
13
Re: EN 473 ----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Davie
: Reading sections 5.1. and 5.2. of EN 473 and your own PCN certificate will give you some guidance through the labyrinth that is NDT personnel certification. Properly administered and auditable SNT-TC-1a cuts out so much bulls**t but unfortunately, the exponential increase in ASNT Level III certificates and certain less reputable practices such as grandfathering has opened up doubts about the inegrity of some schemes administration)
: PCN certificates are issued by BINDT accredited by UKAS, the UK national accreditation body, which is a signatory to recognition agreements with other national accreditation bodies. BINDT is a signatory to and registered under a European Federation for NDT (EFNDT)Multilateral Mutual Recognition Agreement which means PCN certificates are recognised by all EFNDT signatory bodies, likewise PCN recognises COFREND and DZP certificates amongst others appearing on the MRA.
: Every EN 473 certificate must be issued by a certification body accredited by a national accreditation body as meeting EN 45013, or more recently ISO 17024. UKAS has accredited about 20 bodies against 17024 for the certification of personnel, any one of which could implement and be audited to EN 473.
: What I am trying to show is that EN 473 is just a document, it is the accredited bodies operating personnel certification schemes which give broader value to the certificates because they are recognised nationally and internationally as guaranteeing standardisation of levels of competence of certified personnel.
: Now I am not certain that I understand exactly what problem you are highlighting. From your 1st post "can EN 473 be used internally similar to that of SNTC-1A for training and qualification", I thought you were indicating an employer issuing a technician qualification certificate citing EN 473. However after your 2nd post I am not so certain that is your intention - "major inspection companies are now using the EN 473 system for Technician approval instead of PCN". Finally you state a third party inspection agency is endorsing certificates.
: Each PCN (and perhaps other schemes') certificate contains a space for Employer's Authorisation, though I have never seen this filled out and I dont think this is what you mean by EN 473 used internally.
: There are some regulatory and contractual constraints on certification schemes, for the Pressure Equipment Directive EN 473 certification is mandatory, but still the inspection company can have its employees certificated under any EN 473 scheme, even in the UK it does not have to be PCN. CSWIP is also EN473 compliant and accredited by UKAS.
: Inspection agency employees regularly review fabrication records which contain personnel certificates. Why they should need to endorse them I dont know I would have thought that "reporting by exception" would be sufficient.
: Finally is that wishful thinking on your part Davie - the "end" of PCN. Well, who knows, who could foretell the end of the "evil empire", the USSR and the downfall of communism. PCN and its commissars may fall from grace, but usually any such fall is broken by a carefully prepared feather bed because commissars of evil empires tend to have well prepared escape routes.
: Time for bed!
: Best regards
: Nigel
:
: : : Davie
: : : EN 473 is the European standard for certification of NDT personnel which, because of the UK's membership of the European standards organisation (CEN), has to be published in the UK. Most CEN countries have their own national personnel certification scheme such as Nordtest in Scandinavia and Cofrend in France, typically under the auspices of the national NDT society.
: : : The body administering a scheme is the certification body which has to meet the requirements of EN45013 - General criteria for certification bodies operating certification of personnel. PCN is a certification body assessed and accredited by UKAS (UK Accreditation Service).
: : : PCN issues procedures for training, examination and certification following the rules and requirements of EN 473 and ensures that the Authorised Qualifying Bodies and training and examination centres follow these rules.
: : : There are other European and international standards (EN 4179, ISO 9712) for certifcation of NDT personnel, so the PCN/EN 473 relationship does not preclude PCN from participating in other certification schemes, it just happens that EN 473 is its biggest money-spinner.
: : : The last part of your question is, I believe, a resounding NO - as a technician, a professional NDT engineer, an auditor and in my current guise working for an independent verification body to me the whole principle of EN 473 is independence of the certification scheme. So no employer can adopt parts of EN 473 into the company certification scheme and then claim that the scheme is EN 473 compliant. Though nothing to stop said employer adopting the training syllabus and examination format of EN 473 within the SNT-TC-1A scheme as long as EN 473 does not appear on the certificate.
: : : Cheers
: : : Nigel
: : : : Can anyone explain the main differences in EN 473 & PCN.I understand that PCN meets EN 473 requiements but can EN 473 be used internally similar to that of SNTC-1A for training and qualification?
: : Thanks very much for that Nigel.
: : One of the main reasons for my original question is because I now notice a few major inspection companies are now using the EN 473 system for Technician approval instead of PCN and certificates are endorsed by third party inspection agencies.
: : Are we now seeing the end of PCN?
: : Cheers,
: : Davie
------------ End Original Message ------------

Thanks very much Nigel for a very informative answer.
Cheers,
Davie



 
06:02 Oct-31-2008

Nigel Armstrong

Engineering, - Specialist services
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 2000
1094
Re: EN 473 Hi Davie

I attempted to post again on this thread (why am i such a sucker for arcane personnel certification issues?) but its not appeared. Though the post was largely factual, I admit at the end of the post a certain degree of cynicism crept in and I expressed unkind sentiments about the complexity (and I should have mentioned expense) of the certification system. As that was (slightly) off-topic I can live with Rolf's decision, if that was indeed the case.

Davie, was what you have seen connected with Pressure Equipment Directive, because the EFNDT has a Code of Practice for Recognised Third Party Organisations (RTPO), e.g. Lloyds, to approve NDT personnel to test permanent joints of category III and IV pressure systems. This is not the same as initial certification. The approval route depends on who has issued the initial certificate and is basically an attempt to ensure that all personnel working to the PED meet the standards set by the harmonised EN 473 standard.

Cheers

Nigel


----------- Start Original Message -----------
: : Can you be a bit more specific on the 'third-party inspection agencies'
: : As i understand EN473, certification authority generally derives from one of the appropriate national certification authorities.
: : So if anyone not operating under PCN is certifying EN473 in the UK, or under the authority of an equivalent national body in another country, I'd be surprised.
: : PCN /BINDT is (I think) the only one that operate internationally to any significant extent.
: :
: : : : Davie
: : : : EN 473 is the European standard for certification of NDT personnel which, because of the UK's membership of the European standards organisation (CEN), has to be published in the UK. Most CEN countries have their own national personnel certification scheme such as Nordtest in Scandinavia and Cofrend in France, typically under the auspices of the national NDT society.
: : : : The body administering a scheme is the certification body which has to meet the requirements of EN45013 - General criteria for certification bodies operating certification of personnel. PCN is a certification body assessed and accredited by UKAS (UK Accreditation Service).
: : : : PCN issues procedures for training, examination and certification following the rules and requirements of EN 473 and ensures that the Authorised Qualifying Bodies and training and examination centres follow these rules.
: : : : There are other European and international standards (EN 4179, ISO 9712) for certifcation of NDT personnel, so the PCN/EN 473 relationship does not preclude PCN from participating in other certification schemes, it just happens that EN 473 is its biggest money-spinner.
: : : : The last part of your question is, I believe, a resounding NO - as a technician, a professional NDT engineer, an auditor and in my current guise working for an independent verification body to me the whole principle of EN 473 is independence of the certification scheme. So no employer can adopt parts of EN 473 into the company certification scheme and then claim that the scheme is EN 473 compliant. Though nothing to stop said employer adopting the training syllabus and examination format of EN 473 within the SNT-TC-1A scheme as long as EN 473 does not appear on the certificate.
: : : : Cheers
: : : : Nigel
: : : : : Can anyone explain the main differences in EN 473 & PCN.I understand that PCN meets EN 473 requiements but can EN 473 be used internally similar to that of SNTC-1A for training and qualification?
: : : Thanks very much for that Nigel.
: : : One of the main reasons for my original question is because I now notice a few major inspection companies are now using the EN 473 system for Technician approval instead of PCN and certificates are endorsed by third party inspection agencies.
: : : Are we now seeing the end of PCN?
: : : Cheers,
: : : Davie
: Thanks Joe,
: Lloyds Register are being used to endorse this Certification.
: Is there a possible Loop Hole in the EN 473 system?
------------ End Original Message ------------




 
08:54 Oct-31-2008

Davie Armit

NDT Inspector,
Applus RTD,
United Kingdom,
Joined Dec 2004
13
Re: EN 473 ----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Hi Davie
: I attempted to post again on this thread (why am i such a sucker for arcane personnel certification issues?) but its not appeared. Though the post was largely factual, I admit at the end of the post a certain degree of cynicism crept in and I expressed unkind sentiments about the complexity (and I should have mentioned expense) of the certification system. As that was (slightly) off-topic I can live with Rolf's decision, if that was indeed the case.
: Davie, was what you have seen connected with Pressure Equipment Directive, because the EFNDT has a Code of Practice for Recognised Third Party Organisations (RTPO), e.g. Lloyds, to approve NDT personnel to test permanent joints of category III and IV pressure systems. This is not the same as initial certification. The approval route depends on who has issued the initial certificate and is basically an attempt to ensure that all personnel working to the PED meet the standards set by the harmonised EN 473 standard.
: Cheers
: Nigel
:
: : : Can you be a bit more specific on the 'third-party inspection agencies'
: : : As i understand EN473, certification authority generally derives from one of the appropriate national certification authorities.
: : : So if anyone not operating under PCN is certifying EN473 in the UK, or under the authority of an equivalent national body in another country, I'd be surprised.
: : : PCN /BINDT is (I think) the only one that operate internationally to any significant extent.
: : :
: : : : : Davie
: : : : : EN 473 is the European standard for certification of NDT personnel which, because of the UK's membership of the European standards organisation (CEN), has to be published in the UK. Most CEN countries have their own national personnel certification scheme such as Nordtest in Scandinavia and Cofrend in France, typically under the auspices of the national NDT society.
: : : : : The body administering a scheme is the certification body which has to meet the requirements of EN45013 - General criteria for certification bodies operating certification of personnel. PCN is a certification body assessed and accredited by UKAS (UK Accreditation Service).
: : : : : PCN issues procedures for training, examination and certification following the rules and requirements of EN 473 and ensures that the Authorised Qualifying Bodies and training and examination centres follow these rules.
: : : : : There are other European and international standards (EN 4179, ISO 9712) for certifcation of NDT personnel, so the PCN/EN 473 relationship does not preclude PCN from participating in other certification schemes, it just happens that EN 473 is its biggest money-spinner.
: : : : : The last part of your question is, I believe, a resounding NO - as a technician, a professional NDT engineer, an auditor and in my current guise working for an independent verification body to me the whole principle of EN 473 is independence of the certification scheme. So no employer can adopt parts of EN 473 into the company certification scheme and then claim that the scheme is EN 473 compliant. Though nothing to stop said employer adopting the training syllabus and examination format of EN 473 within the SNT-TC-1A scheme as long as EN 473 does not appear on the certificate.
: : : : : Cheers
: : : : : Nigel
: : : : : : Can anyone explain the main differences in EN 473 & PCN.I understand that PCN meets EN 473 requiements but can EN 473 be used internally similar to that of SNTC-1A for training and qualification?
: : : : Thanks very much for that Nigel.
: : : : One of the main reasons for my original question is because I now notice a few major inspection companies are now using the EN 473 system for Technician approval instead of PCN and certificates are endorsed by third party inspection agencies.
: : : : Are we now seeing the end of PCN?
: : : : Cheers,
: : : : Davie
: : Thanks Joe,
: : Lloyds Register are being used to endorse this Certification.
: : Is there a possible Loop Hole in the EN 473 system?
------------ End Original Message ------------

Hi Nigel,

This is initial examination.The training being carried out internally and examination endorsed by Lloyds.
Are the Certificates then worthless?

Thanks,
Davie



 
01:00 Oct-31-2008

Oliviero Oldani

NDT Inspector,
Quality Control srl,
Italy,
Joined Oct 2008
414
Re: EN 473 Hi sirs,

I'm italian and I've just read these messages.
I think that there is a lot of confusion about Third Party certification.
At first the EN473 certification is not mandatory for PED.
The second point is that the EN473 is a standard and it is not a law; so its applicability shall be required by contractual documents.
Actually in Italy we have six Certification Bodies with their Examination Center (I think too much).
The result of this certification scheme is that the certified competency does not meet the expected operator qualification.
What do you think about?

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Hi Davie
: I attempted to post again on this thread (why am i such a sucker for arcane personnel certification issues?) but its not appeared. Though the post was largely factual, I admit at the end of the post a certain degree of cynicism crept in and I expressed unkind sentiments about the complexity (and I should have mentioned expense) of the certification system. As that was (slightly) off-topic I can live with Rolf's decision, if that was indeed the case.
: Davie, was what you have seen connected with Pressure Equipment Directive, because the EFNDT has a Code of Practice for Recognised Third Party Organisations (RTPO), e.g. Lloyds, to approve NDT personnel to test permanent joints of category III and IV pressure systems. This is not the same as initial certification. The approval route depends on who has issued the initial certificate and is basically an attempt to ensure that all personnel working to the PED meet the standards set by the harmonised EN 473 standard.
: Cheers
: Nigel
:
: : : Can you be a bit more specific on the 'third-party inspection agencies'
: : : As i understand EN473, certification authority generally derives from one of the appropriate national certification authorities.
: : : So if anyone not operating under PCN is certifying EN473 in the UK, or under the authority of an equivalent national body in another country, I'd besurprised.
: : : PCN /BINDT is (I think) the only one that operate internationally to any significant extent.
: : :
: : : : : Davie
: : : : : EN 473 is the European standard for certification of NDT personnel which, because of the UK's membership of the European standards organisation (CEN), has to be published in the UK. Most CEN countries have their own national personnel certification scheme such as Nordtest in Scandinavia and Cofrend in France, typically under the auspices of the national NDT society.
: : : : : The body administering a scheme is the certification body which has to meet the requirements of EN45013 - General criteria for certification bodies operating certification of personnel. PCN is a certification body assessed and accredited by UKAS (UK Accreditation Service).
: : : : : PCN issues procedures for training, examination and certification following the rules and requirements of EN 473 and ensures that the Authorised Qualifying Bodies and training and examination centres follow these rules.
: : : : : There are other European and international standards (EN 4179, ISO 9712) for certifcation of NDT personnel, so the PCN/EN 473 relationship does not preclude PCN from participating in other certification schemes, it just happens that EN 473 is its biggest money-spinner.
: : : : : The last part of your question is, I believe, a resounding NO - as a technician, a professional NDT engineer, an auditor and in my current guise working for an independent verification body to me the whole principle of EN 473 is independence of the certification scheme. So no employer can adopt parts of EN 473 into the company certification scheme and then claim that the scheme is EN 473 compliant. Though nothing to stop said employer adopting the training syllabus and examination format of EN 473 within the SNT-TC-1A scheme as long as EN 473 does not appear on the certificate.
: : : : : Cheers
: : : : : Nigel
: : : : : : Can anyone explain the main differences in EN 473 & PCN.I understand that PCN meets EN 473 requiements but can EN 473 be used internally similar to that of SNTC-1A for training and qualification?
: : : : Thanks very much for that Nigel.
: : : : One of the main reasons for my original question is because I now notice a few major inspection companies are now using the EN 473 system for Technician approval instead of PCN and certificates are endorsed by third party inspection agencies.
: : : : Are we now seeing the end of PCN?
: : : : Cheers,
: : : : Davie
: : Thanks Joe,
: : Lloyds Register are being used to endorse this Certification.
: : Is there a possible Loop Hole in the EN 473 system?
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19:06 Jun-24-2011
halidh
Re: EN 473 In Reply to Davie Armit at 03:50 Oct-27-2008 (Opening).

Dear sir
please suggest me which course is best fo job opportunity PCN or EN 473? am ASNT level II in ut, mpi,dpi,rt.. so please help me.. tell me the difference also..

 


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