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03:07 Nov-23-2008
Abdulla Benamer
PCN vs. ASNT

Dear Sir.
I would like to know which scheme i should accept when contractor doing job for me is it ASNT or PCN?


 
01:20 Nov-24-2008

John O'Brien

Consultant, -
Chevron ETC ,
USA,
Joined Jan 2000
278
Re: PCN vs. ASNT Abdullah

its not a great question as a good ASNT certified technician is just as good as a bad PCN certified technician.

The other issue is you are not distinguishing as to which form of ASNT you want to make a comparision with. ASNT SNT-TC-1A is an employer based certification and in some peoples eyes is therefore inferior to a third party issued certification such as PCN or the ASNT ACCP.

It also may vary dependent upon which discipline you wnat to employ MT & PT togeter with RT are relatively simple to compare. When you become more complex such as RT Film Interpretation or UT you may want to performance demonstration test all personnel and this takes out of the equation the certification. It then ensures the personnel you employ are truely capable.


 
02:46 Nov-24-2008

Nigel Armstrong

Engineering, - Specialist services
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 2000
1094
Re: PCN vs. ASNT Abdulla

Which stage is your NDT contract at? If the contract is out for tender already what specification (if any) did you put on personnel qualification? If you are at pre-tender stage then you still have some opportunity to decide whether one qualification system is more desirable than another and why. Recently I haver seen a tendency in major Oil & Gas specifications to specify ISO 9712/EN 473 certification (PCN is only one of many certification bodies which meets these requirements), I suppose in the belief that this will entail a better quality technician, but this may not be taken into account at contract award - price rules - and I have seen the contract has been awarded to an inspection company without any or sufficient centrally certified technicians.

So the question is Abdulla, do you have the luxury of choice and if yes can you enforce that choice? I would recommend rather than bias in favour of one qualification system or another that you try to ensure that inspection companies undergo a pre-award survey for both managerial and technical competence and their ability to ensure a first-class service.

Good luck in your hunt for inspection quality.

Nigel

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Dear Sir.
: I would like to know which scheme i should accept when contractor doing job for me is it ASNT or PCN?
------------ End Original Message ------------




 
03:22 Nov-24-2008

S.R.G.PRABHU

Consultant, AUT specialist
FREELANCE,
India,
Joined Aug 2008
63
Re: PCN vs. ASNT ----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Dear Sir.
: I would like to know which scheme i should accept when contractor doing job for me is it ASNT or PCN?
------------ End Original Message ------------

Abdulla,
Needless to say, you only need a competent person to perform this task.I am holding duel certifiction both ASNT LEVEL3 and CSWIP level II as per EN 473 . I was not considered by some employers due to their policy but I always find excellent jobs, like my current position in ENIGAS.
So in my opinion, the employer shall screen the candidate based on his qualification and experience and shall conduct a 'real' test of the candiddate with mock up pieces( for example in case of UT) to test his current ability example API RP 2X...
Regards
Prabhu



 
09:34 Nov-25-2008
ASNT SNT-TC1A certified
Re: PCN vs. ASNT ive seen a lot of PCN certified NDT that are actually do not know what they are doing. And you just wonder how they pass the certification when PCN is suppose to be more strict more stringent.

A level II PCN in UT 3.9 does not even know how to calibrate a machine. Or a PCN radiographer who does not seem to know what an over exposed film looks like and passed a radiograph so dark you wont even see just even one IQI.

So does it matter wether its PCN or ASNT? Its not what certificates you are holding, its what you know.

To compare the ASNT SNT-TC-1A certification to PCN as inferior is not true.

Its all about making money and people behind this trend are gaining lots and lots of them.

If i were you, if you want to make sure that these contractors will do a great job and correctly. Check their technicians or inspectors.


----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Abdullah
: its not a great question as a good ASNT certified technician is just as good as a bad PCN certified technician.
: The other issue is you are not distinguishing as to which form of ASNT you want to make a comparision with. ASNT SNT-TC-1A is an employer based certification and in some peoples eyes is therefore inferior to a third party issued certification such as PCN or the ASNT ACCP.
: It also may vary dependent upon which discipline you wnat to employ MT & PT togeter with RT are relatively simple to compare. When you become more complex such as RT Film Interpretation or UT you may want to performance demonstration test all personnel and this takes out of the equation the certification. It then ensures the personnel you employ are truely capable.
------------ End Original Message ------------




 
00:27 Nov-25-2008

Nigel Armstrong

Engineering, - Specialist services
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 2000
1094
Re: PCN vs. ASNT Dear Anonymous

I understand that most would feel aggrieved as you obviously do when you are doing the best job you can as a professional technician and yet you feel the reputation of your qualifications are under attack.

However, placing the thrust of your argument on the same level as your perceived detractors, i.e. that a lot of PCN certificate holders are incompetent makes your post appear as a "rant".

A 3.9. PCN technician is qualified through examination by testing and correctly reporting on butt welds in 2 plates, 3 pipes, 2 nozzles and 1 node - a total of 8 samples. It is possible, though unusual, to attempt the node before the nozzles. To suggest that an independent certification body (whether PCN or any other) under these exam conditions could let slip through their net someone who cannot calibrate an ultrasonic instrument is far-fetched to say the least. Without doubting the veracity of your post, I can only suggest that said technician was presented with an unfamiliar instrument and was struggling to locate the timebase and delay controls, but that is not the same as being incompetent in ultrasonic testing.

I agree that no matter where you work in the world there can be a great variance in technician capability, unrelated through which certification scheme thay have been qualified. Much time and effort has gone to study this variance and it is generally understood that a sturdy across the board quality scheme combined with continuing education is essential to working towards lifting the quality of inspections.


----------- Start Original Message -----------
: ive seen a lot of PCN certified NDT that are actually do not know what they are doing. And you just wonder how they pass the certification when PCN is suppose to be more strict more stringent.
: A level II PCN in UT 3.9 does not even know how to calibrate a machine. Or a PCN radiographer who does not seem to know what an over exposed film looks like and passed a radiograph so dark you wont even see just even one IQI.
: So does it matter wether its PCN or ASNT? Its not what certificates you are holding, its what you know.
: To compare the ASNT SNT-TC-1A certification to PCN as inferior is not true.
: Its all about making money and people behind this trend are gaining lots and lots of them.
: If i were you, if you want to make sure that these contractors will do a great job and correctly. Check their technicians or inspectors.
:
: : Abdullah
: : its not a great question as a good ASNT certified technician is just as good as a bad PCN certified technician.
: : The other issue is you are not distinguishing as to which form of ASNT you want to make a comparision with. ASNT SNT-TC-1A is an employer based certification and in some peoples eyes is therefore inferior to a third party issued certification such as PCN or the ASNT ACCP.
: : It also may vary dependent upon which discipline you wnat to employ MT & PT togeter with RT are relatively simple to compare. When you become more complex such as RT Film Interpretation or UT you may want to performance demonstration test all personnel and this takes out of the equation the certification. It then ensures the personnel you employ are truely capable.
------------ End Original Message ------------




 
01:39 Nov-25-2008

Joe Buckley

Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 1999
515
Re: PCN vs. ASNT I would second the comment that both schemes can fulfil your needs when properly used. I would certainly not say that one is better than the other.

To declare an interest, I'm on the BINDT council, which oversees PCN, But my own level III certificates are ASNT.

Where the two schemes do differ is that an Employer certified SNT Tech is only as good as, and only valid when working within, his employers QA system. There is no reason to assume that is other than perfect, But it is company specific.

In contrast a PCN or other third party certified technician will have been independently assessed. That SHOULD mean that their ability can be relied on in a more general context.

If someone comes across a PCN certified technician who appears to be incompetent then please as a bare minimum check their certification on the BINDT website - That takes a few seconds. Faked certificates are not common, but they have happened.

link is
http://www.bindt.org/Certification/PCN_Certification_Verification


Joe

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Dear Anonymous
: I understand that most would feel aggrieved as you obviously do when you are doing the best job you can as a professional technician and yet you feel the reputation of your qualifications are under attack.
: However, placing the thrust of your argument on the same level as your perceived detractors, i.e. that a lot of PCN certificate holders are incompetent makes your post appear as a "rant".
: A 3.9. PCN technician is qualified through examination by testing and correctly reporting on butt welds in 2 plates, 3 pipes, 2 nozzles and 1 node - a total of 8 samples. It is possible, though unusual, to attempt the node before the nozzles. To suggest that an independent certification body (whether PCN or any other) under these exam conditions could let slip through their net someone who cannot calibrate an ultrasonic instrument is far-fetched to say the least. Without doubting the veracity of your post, I can only suggest that saidtechnician was presented with an unfamiliar instrument and was struggling to locate the timebase and delay controls, but that is not the same as being incompetent in ultrasonic testing.
: I agree that no matter where you work in the world there can be a great variance in technician capability, unrelated through which certification scheme thay have been qualified. Much time and effort has gone to study this variance and it is generally understood that a sturdy across the board quality scheme combined with continuing education is essential to working towards lifting the quality of inspections.
:
: : ive seen a lot of PCN certified NDT that are actually do not know what they are doing. And you just wonder how they pass the certification when PCN is suppose to be more strict more stringent.
: : A level II PCN in UT 3.9 does not even know how to calibrate a machine. Or a PCN radiographer who does not seem to know what an over exposed film looks like and passed a radiograph so dark you wont even seejust even one IQI.
: : So does it matter wether its PCN or ASNT? Its not what certificates you are holding, its what you know.
: : To compare the ASNT SNT-TC-1A certification to PCN as inferior is not true.
: : Its all about making money and people behind this trend are gaining lots and lots of them.
: : If i were you, if you want to make sure that these contractors will do a great job and correctly. Check their technicians or inspectors.
: :
: : : Abdullah
: : : its not a great question as a good ASNT certified technician is just as good as a bad PCN certified technician.
: : : The other issue is you are not distinguishing as to which form of ASNT you want to make a comparision with. ASNT SNT-TC-1A is an employer based certification and in some peoples eyes is therefore inferior to a third party issued certification such as PCN or the ASNT ACCP.
: : : It also may vary dependent upon which discipline you wnat to employ MT & PT togeter with RT are relatively simple to compare. When you become more complex such as RT Film Interpretation or UT you may want to performance demonstration test all personnel and this takes out of the equation the certification. It then ensures the personnel you employ are truely capable.
------------ End Original Message ------------




 
00:18 Nov-28-2008

Malik

NDT Inspector, - Conditio Monitoring Engineer
Indonesia,
Joined Oct 2006
2
Re: PCN vs. ASNT I Strongly agreed with John. always do self test to the contractors, make sure NDT procedures or written instruction prepared and they obey to that. And, do withness during the project.

Malik

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Abdullah
: its not a great question as a good ASNT certified technician is just as good as a bad PCN certified technician.
: The other issue is you are not distinguishing as to which form of ASNT you want to make a comparision with. ASNT SNT-TC-1A is an employer based certification and in some peoples eyes is therefore inferior to a third party issued certification such as PCN or the ASNT ACCP.
: It also may vary dependent upon which discipline you wnat to employ MT & PT togeter with RT are relatively simple to compare. When you become more complex such as RT Film Interpretation or UT you may want to performance demonstration test all personnel and this takes out of the equation the certification. It then ensures the personnel you employ are truely capable.
------------ End Original Message ------------




 
01:24 Nov-28-2008

S.V.Swamy

Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex ,
India,
Joined Feb 2001
784
Re: PCN vs. ASNT ----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Dear Sir.
: I would like to know which scheme i should accept when contractor doing job for me is it ASNT or PCN?
------------ End Original Message ------------

You already got very good answers. In my long service, I came across many operators, who could be divided into three categories: practically good but theoretically weak, theoretically good but practically lacking and a small minority who were good in both. Of course, another minority which was not in good in either aspect need not be discussed here.

The Certification at best assures you that the person is theoretically good (or at least adequate). Evaluation of practical skills is a must before the person is actually put on field work.

If the person shows promise, a few hours of on-the-job training will become a good investment.

And lastly, the specification should be clear about the type of certificate that is acceptable and should also be clear on the practical test that the operator has to pass.

Best regards.

Swamy
NDT Guru


 
00:12 Nov-29-2008
Thadakorn P.
Re: PCN vs. ASNT ----------- Start Original Message -----------
: I Strongly agreed with John. always do self test to the contractors, make sure NDT procedures or written instruction prepared and they obey to that. And, do withness during the project.
: Malik
: : Abdullah
: : its not a great question as a good ASNT certified technician is just as good as a bad PCN certified technician.
: : The other issue is you are not distinguishing as to which form of ASNT you want to make a comparision with. ASNT SNT-TC-1A is an employer based certification and in some peoples eyes is therefore inferior to a third party issued certification such as PCN or the ASNT ACCP.
: : It also may vary dependent upon which discipline you wnat to employ MT & PT togeter with RT are relatively simple to compare. When you become more complex such as RT Film Interpretation or UT you may want to performance demonstration test all personnel and this takes out of the equation the certification. It then ensures the personnel you employ aretruely capable.
------------ End Original Message ------------




 
06:46 Nov-30-2008

S.Senthilkumar

Engineering, QA/QC/NDT
NOV (National Oilwell Varco),
Angola,
Joined Mar 2006
41
Re: PCN vs. ASNT I am strongly dis agree comments about PCN Standard, I am suggesting ASNT also to issue Level 1 & 2 certificate through general society, institution. So no need to blame either ASNT or PCN or etc.

Regards,
S.Senthilkumar
----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Abdullah
: its not a great question as a good ASNT certified technician is just as good as a bad PCN certified technician.
: The other issue is you are not distinguishing as to which form of ASNT you want to make a comparision with. ASNT SNT-TC-1A is an employer based certification and in some peoples eyes is therefore inferior to a third party issued certification such as PCN or the ASNT ACCP.
: It also may vary dependent upon which discipline you wnat to employ MT & PT togeter with RT are relatively simple to compare. When you become more complex such as RT Film Interpretation or UT you may want to performance demonstration test all personnel and this takes out of the equation the certification. It then ensures the personnel you employ are truely capable.
------------ End Original Message ------------




 
09:20 Dec-05-2008

chris s

Consultant, qc manager
USA,
Joined Apr 2007
9
Re: PCN vs. ASNT ----------- Start Original Message -----------
: I am strongly dis agree comments about PCN Standard, I am suggesting ASNT also to issue Level 1 & 2 certificate through general society, institution. So no need to blame either ASNT or PCN or etc.
: Regards,
: S.Senthilkumar
: : Abdullah
: : its not a great question as a good ASNT certified technician is just as good as a bad PCN certified technician.
: : The other issue is you are not distinguishing as to which form of ASNT you want to make a comparision with. ASNT SNT-TC-1A is an employer based certification and in some peoples eyes is therefore inferior to a third party issued certification such as PCN or the ASNT ACCP.
: : It also may vary dependent upon which discipline you wnat to employ MT & PT togeter with RT are relatively simple to compare. When you become more complex such as RT Film Interpretation or UT you may want to performance demonstration test all personnel and this takes out of the equation the certification. It then ensures the personnel you employ are truely capable.
------------ End Original Message ------------

I would have to agree that there are some good and some bad in both situations. The best thing I've seen a truly concerned owner do is to develop a certification process of there own. A program in addition to the above mentioned programs.



 
02:57 Dec-06-2008

Nigel Armstrong

Engineering, - Specialist services
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 2000
1094
Re: PCN vs. ASNT Hi Chris

SNT-TC-1A is a company (Owner) certification program. Similarly, CP-189 which I believe to be more rigorous. Employer-certification programs can work well where there is consistency - a regular workforce in a fixed location with long term planning. However ASNT must have realised the system's short-comings and failure to meet the requirements of certain sections of industry because both the NDT Level III and ACCP central certification programe were introduced.

The nearest I know of to a company imposing another system on top of central certification (in the case of ISO 9712/EN 473/ PCN certification) is when the already qualified practitioner has to demonstrate capability through testing of test pieces selected by the Owner. In terms of general construction and fabrication, I dont think that the Owner would be prepared to pay the extra costs involved - consider many major engineering companies will not have a permanent Level III presence in their workforce. Whilst Outside Agencies provide sterling service, how can the Owner be certain of the familiarity with the Owner's processes and products necessary for prompt and accurate solutions of inspection problems.

But certainly in any case it is necessary to raise the quality of inspections when major engineering projects design basis is the premise that all significant defects are detected and simultaneously understaff the inspection (both weld inspection and NDT) for the construction phase of the project.

Cheers

Nigel

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: : I am strongly dis agree comments about PCN Standard, I am suggesting ASNT also to issue Level 1 & 2 certificate through general society, institution. So no need to blame either ASNT or PCN or etc.
: : Regards,
: : S.Senthilkumar
: : : Abdullah
: : : its not a great question as a good ASNT certified technician is just as good as a bad PCN certified technician.
: : : The other issue is you are not distinguishing as to which form of ASNT you want to make a comparision with. ASNT SNT-TC-1A is an employer based certification and in some peoples eyes is therefore inferior to a third party issued certification such as PCN or the ASNT ACCP.
: : : It also may vary dependent upon which discipline you wnat to employ MT & PT togeter with RT are relatively simple to compare. When you become more complex such as RT Film Interpretation or UT you may want to performance demonstration test all personnel and this takes out of the equation the certification. It then ensures the personnel you employ are truely capable.
: I would have to agree that there are some good and some bad in both situations. The best thing I've seen a truly concerned owner do is to develop a certification process of there own. A program in addition to the above mentioned programs.
------------ End Original Message ------------




 
04:06 Dec-06-2008

Dr D Dulay

Consultant, - - - ASNT Level III
NDT Consultants Limited,
United Kingdom,
Joined Dec 2004
4
Re: PCN vs. ASNT Gentlemen
I have monitored the very lively discussion on this subject, whilst I am very busy I thought I aught to add a few comments.
1. The Employer based system (i.e.SNT-TC-1A) and the central certification system (i.e. PCN) are as good as the service provider or the Level III controlling this activity. No matter what you do or say it all comes down to the quality of training, examination and certification process.
2. Most people go for training and take exams and with their newly gained certificate of qualification believe they are ready to go to industry and perform tests and valid inspections. This not so, there is a crucial element, of the SNT-TC-1A and other employer based systems as well as PCN and other central certification scheme, that the qualified person should now go for practical experience. The length of experience being dependent on NDT method and is conducted under the supervision of an already certificated Level II or Level III. It is only when this experience element is completeis the person considered fully certified to perform the task appropriate for the employer. It is during this period the qualified individual gains the specific knowledge and experience for the method, techniques and materials etc that he or she is likely to work on.
3. The proliferation of various centres for NDT training, qualification for all schemes means quality will vary. In the Aerospace industry we also use an employer based system based on NAS 410 and EN 4179. The test and training centres like mine as well as others participating in the Aerospace industry are continuously monitored by the various authorities i.e BINDT and the UK NANDTB (National Aerospace NDT Board) as well as Aerospace customers. This ensures the issues of poor quality is minimised.

I am aware that the same solutions as the Aerospace industry cannot apply to non-aerospace industry, so I think a discussion is clearly necessary, and I suggest an international forum is needed where some rational and solutions can be agreed that will in the future provide the quality of certified operators that all are looking for. This clearly will be of interest to both the customers as well as operators.

Personally speaking I have an idea which I believe will solve this problem.
I am currently looking at the financial viability of it all.
Dr Dulay

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Hi Chris
: SNT-TC-1A is a company (Owner) certification program. Similarly, CP-189 which I believe to be more rigorous. Employer-certification programs can work well where there is consistency - a regular workforce in a fixed location with long term planning. However ASNT must have realised the system's short-comings and failure to meet the requirements of certain sections of industry because both the NDT Level III and ACCP central certification programe were introduced.
: The nearest I know of to a company imposing another system on top of central certification (in the case of ISO 9712/EN 473/ PCN certification) is when the alreadyqualified practitioner has to demonstrate capability through testing of test pieces selected by the Owner. In terms of general construction and fabrication, I dont think that the Owner would be prepared to pay the extra costs involved - consider many major engineering companies will not have a permanent Level III presence in their workforce. Whilst Outside Agencies provide sterling service, how can the Owner be certain of the familiarity with the Owner's processes and products necessary for prompt and accurate solutions of inspection problems.
: But certainly in any case it is necessary to raise the quality of inspections when major engineering projects design basis is the premise that all significant defects are detected and simultaneously understaff the inspection (both weld inspection and NDT) for the construction phase of the project.
: Cheers
: Nigel
: : : I am strongly dis agree comments about PCN Standard, I am suggesting ASNT also to issue Level 1 & 2 certificate through general society,institution. So no need to blame either ASNT or PCN or etc.
: : : Regards,
: : : S.Senthilkumar
: : : : Abdullah
: : : : its not a great question as a good ASNT certified technician is just as good as a bad PCN certified technician.
: : : : The other issue is you are not distinguishing as to which form of ASNT you want to make a comparision with. ASNT SNT-TC-1A is an employer based certification and in some peoples eyes is therefore inferior to a third party issued certification such as PCN or the ASNT ACCP.
: : : : It also may vary dependent upon which discipline you wnat to employ MT & PT togeter with RT are relatively simple to compare. When you become more complex such as RT Film Interpretation or UT you may want to performance demonstration test all personnel and this takes out of the equation the certification. It then ensures the personnel you employ are truely capable.
: : I would have to agree that there are some good and some bad in both situations. The best thing I've seen a truly concerned owner do is to develop a certification process of there own. A program in addition to the above mentioned programs.
------------ End Original Message ------------




 
05:07 Dec-06-2008

S.V.Swamy

Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex ,
India,
Joined Feb 2001
784
Re: PCN vs. ASNT Both Nigel and Chris have made valid points. If the manufacturer does not have permanent Level III to check the quality of the inspectors, using third party services is next best. That is where we, the qualified and experienced NDT professionals can help.

There was a committee to assess the quality of NDT personnel (their ability to detect certain defects in specimens) in which one of my colleagues was involved. Several countries took part in that round robin study. The results of such studies should be well publicised to sensitise the manufacturers, customers and QS agencies to the need of personnel qualification specific to the job on hand.

Best wishes.

Swamy
The NDT Guru

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Hi Chris
: SNT-TC-1A is a company (Owner) certification program. Similarly, CP-189 which I believe to be more rigorous. Employer-certification programs can work well where there is consistency - a regular workforce in a fixed location with long term planning. However ASNT must have realised the system's short-comings and failure to meet the requirements of certain sections of industry because both the NDT Level III and ACCP central certification programe were introduced.
: The nearest I know of to a company imposing another system on top of central certification (in the case of ISO 9712/EN 473/ PCN certification) is when the already qualified practitioner has to demonstrate capability through testing of test pieces selected by the Owner. In terms of general construction and fabrication, I dont think that the Owner would be prepared to pay the extra costs involved - consider many major engineering companies will not have a permanent Level III presence in their workforce. Whilst Outside Agencies provide sterling service, how can the Owner be certain of the familiarity with the Owner's processes and products necessary for prompt and accurate solutions of inspection problems.
: But certainly in any case it is necessary to raise the quality of inspections when major engineering projects design basis is the premise that all significant defects are detected and simultaneously understaff the inspection (both weld inspection and NDT) for the construction phase of the project.
: Cheers
: Nigel
: : : I am strongly dis agree comments about PCN Standard, I am suggesting ASNT also to issue Level 1 & 2 certificate through general society, institution. So no need to blame either ASNT or PCN or etc.
: : : Regards,
: : : S.Senthilkumar
: : : : Abdullah
: : : : its not a great question as a good ASNT certified technician is just as good as a bad PCN certified technician.
: : : : The other issue is you are not distinguishing as to which form of ASNT you want to make a comparision with. ASNT SNT-TC-1A is an employer based certification and in some peoples eyes is therefore inferior to a third party issued certification such as PCN or the ASNT ACCP.
: : : : It also may vary dependent upon which discipline you wnat to employ MT & PT togeter with RT are relatively simple to compare. When you become more complex such as RT Film Interpretation or UT you may want to performance demonstration test all personnel and this takes out of the equation the certification. It then ensures the personnel you employ are truely capable.
: : I would have to agree that there are some good and some bad in both situations. The best thing I've seen a truly concerned owner do is to develop a certification process of there own. A program in addition to the above mentioned programs.
------------ End Original Message ------------




 
01:49 Dec-06-2008

Oliviero Oldani

NDT Inspector,
Quality Control srl,
Italy,
Joined Oct 2008
414
Re: PCN vs. ASNT Dear all,
I followed this discussion, which is a big subject for all the world market.
In Italy too is living the question: Which is the best certification scheme?
I think that the manufacturer shall have the responsibility to understand the operator skilling. Any certification scheme can release only the written witness of the base matter understanding.
Only the manufacturer can add the necessary practical experience and skilling for the base matter application on their own product.
The main point is the presence of the level III. Today the level III is mainly a consultant. But a consultant seen as a cost only.
The manufacturers are understanding that they need the level II to satisfy the codes and standard. It should be more clear that they need the level III principally.
----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Both Nigel and Chris have made valid points. If the manufacturer does not have permanent Level III to check the quality of the inspectors, using third party services is next best. That is where we, the qualified and experienced NDT professionals can help.
: There was a committee to assess the quality of NDT personnel (their ability to detect certain defects in specimens) in which one of my colleagues was involved. Several countries took part in that round robin study. The results of such studies should be well publicised to sensitise the manufacturers, customers and QS agencies to the need of personnel qualification specific to the job on hand.
: Best wishes.
: Swamy
: The NDT Guru
: : Hi Chris
: : SNT-TC-1A is a company (Owner) certification program. Similarly, CP-189 which I believe to be more rigorous. Employer-certification programs can work well where there is consistency - a regular workforce in a fixed location with long term planning. However ASNT must have realised the system's short-comings and failure to meet the requirements of certain sections of industry because both the NDT Level III and ACCP central certification programe were introduced.
: : The nearest I know of to a company imposing another system on top of central certification (in the case of ISO 9712/EN 473/ PCN certification) is when the already qualified practitioner has to demonstrate capability through testing of test pieces selected by the Owner. In terms of general construction and fabrication, I dont think that the Owner would be prepared to pay the extra costs involved - consider many major engineering companies will not have a permanent Level III presence in their workforce. Whilst Outside Agencies provide sterling service, how can the Owner be certain of the familiarity with the Owner's processes and products necessary for prompt and accurate solutions of inspection problems.
: : But certainly in any case it is necessary to raise the quality of inspections when major engineering projects design basis is the premise that all significant defects are detected and simultaneously understaff the inspection (both weld inspection and NDT) for the construction phase of the project.
: : Cheers
: : Nigel
: : : : I am strongly dis agree comments about PCN Standard, I am suggesting ASNT also to issue Level 1 & 2 certificate through general society, institution. So no need to blame either ASNT or PCN or etc.
: : : : Regards,
: : : : S.Senthilkumar
: : : : : Abdullah
: : : : : its not a great question as a good ASNT certified technician is just as good as a bad PCN certified technician.
: : : : : The other issue is you are not distinguishing as to which form of ASNT you want to make a comparision with. ASNT SNT-TC-1A is an employer based certification and in some peoples eyes is therefore inferior to a third party issued certification such as PCN or the ASNT ACCP.
: : : : : It also may vary dependent upon which discipline you wnat to employ MT & PT togeter with RT are relatively simple to compare. When you become more complex such as RT Film Interpretation or UT you may want to performance demonstration test all personnel and this takes out of the equationthe certification. It then ensures the personnel you employ are truely capable.
: : : I would have to agree that there are some good and some bad in both situations. The best thing I've seen a truly concerned owner do is to develop a certification process of there own. A program in addition to the above mentioned programs.
------------ End Original Message ------------




 
07:03 Dec-07-2008

Andre Fouche

NDT Inspector
Sonartech,
South Africa,
Joined Nov 2008
11
Re: PCN vs. ASNT ----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Dear all,
: I followed this discussion, which is a big subject for all the world market.
: In Italy too is living the question: Which is the best certification scheme?
: I think that the manufacturer shall have the responsibility to understand the operator skilling. Any certification scheme can release only the written witness of the base matter understanding.
: Only the manufacturer can add the necessary practical experience and skilling for the base matter application on their own product.
: The main point is the presence of the level III. Today the level III is mainly a consultant. But a consultant seen as a cost only.
: The manufacturers are understanding that they need the level II to satisfy the codes and standard. It should be more clear that they need the level III principally.
: : Both Nigel and Chris have made valid points. If the manufacturer does not have permanent Level III to check the quality of the inspectors, using third party services is next best. That is where we, the qualified and experienced NDT professionals can help.
: : There was a committee to assess the quality of NDT personnel (their ability to detect certain defects in specimens) in which one of my colleagues was involved. Several countries took part in that round robin study. The results of such studies should be well publicised to sensitise the manufacturers, customers and QS agencies to the need of personnel qualification specific to the job on hand.
: : Best wishes.
: : Swamy
: : The NDT Guru
: : : Hi Chris
: : : SNT-TC-1A is a company (Owner) certification program. Similarly, CP-189 which I believe to be more rigorous. Employer-certification programs can work well where there is consistency - a regular workforce in a fixed location with long term planning. However ASNT must have realised the system's short-comings and failure to meet the requirements of certain sections of industry because both the NDT Level III and ACCP central certification programe were introduced.
: : : The nearest I know of to a company imposing another system on top of central certification (in the case of ISO 9712/EN 473/ PCN certification) is when the already qualified practitioner has to demonstrate capability through testing of test pieces selected by the Owner. In terms of general construction and fabrication, I dont think that the Owner would be prepared to pay the extra costs involved - consider many major engineering companies will not have a permanent Level III presence in their workforce. Whilst Outside Agencies provide sterling service, how can the Owner be certain of the familiarity with the Owner's processes and products necessary for prompt and accurate solutions of inspection problems.
: : : But certainly in any case it is necessary to raise the quality of inspections when major engineering projects design basis is the premise that all significant defects are detected and simultaneously understaff the inspection (both weld inspection and NDT) for the construction phase of the project.
: : : Cheers
: : : Nigel
: : : : : I am strongly dis agree comments about PCN Standard, I am suggesting ASNT also to issue Level 1 & 2 certificate through general society, institution. So no need to blame either ASNT or PCN or etc.
: : : : : Regards,
: : : : : S.Senthilkumar
: : : : : : Abdullah
: : : : : : its not a great question as a good ASNT certified technician is just as good as a bad PCN certified technician.
: : : : : : The other issue is you are not distinguishing as to which form of ASNT you want to make a comparision with. ASNT SNT-TC-1A is an employer based certification and in some peoples eyes is therefore inferior to a third party issued certification such as PCN or the ASNT ACCP.
: : : : : : It also may vary dependent upon which discipline you wnat to employ MT & PT togeter with RT are relatively simple to compare. When you become more complex such as RT Film Interpretation or UT you may want to performance demonstration test all personnel and this takes out of the equation the certification. It then ensures the personnel you employ are truely capable.
: : : : I would have to agree that there are some good and some bad in both situations. The best thing I've seen a truly concerned owner do is to develop a certification process of there own. A program in addition to the above mentioned programs.
------------ End Original Message ------------

The subject broached is probably one of the most controversial subjects within the NDT community. It is felt that most manufacturers utilising "In House" NDT personnel, do so as a necessary evil, ensuring that they have the coverage to appease the third part inspectorates and insurance industries. Again, many of these inductries also do not prescribe to the Level III person as a necessity in their quality programme, due to the obvious increased costs. They are therefore left to the mercy of their personnel, who in many cases are underexperienced or undertrained to cope with the demands put upon them by the production sector of the manufacturer irrespective of qualification systems incorporated.

Many of the technicians involved are not exposed to varieties of examination scenarios. such as turbine components, nuclear stations and requirements etc. Also, they seem to be channeled into certain industries and not be allowed out of those industries, meaning, that a boiler technician will only work on the boiler and not any ancilliary equipment.

Also, many companies tend to limit the range of disciplines in which they qualify their technicians, for example, a radiographer is rarely trained to do ultrasonics etc.

In my experience, even surface techs are never exposed to working with coils, prods, fluorescent media etc. The broader education of these technicians will allow for a more complete technician with more skills and awareness of possible solutions to inspection dilemmas.

The long term solution would be for industry in general to stop seeing NDT as a necessary evil and to accord the industry a more professional status. This will serve the industry well and increase the quality factor of the NDT practitioners.


 
15:54 Sep-24-2010

LK

NDT Inspector,
Norway,
Joined May 2008
104
Re: PCN vs. ASNT In Reply to Abdulla Benamer at 03:07 Nov-23-2008 (Opening).

Could anybody send me a fresh copy of SNT-TC-1A?
Thank you in advance.

 
17:45 Sep-24-2010

André Ribeiro

NDT Inspector,
Self Employed,
Brazil,
Joined Apr 2008
18
Re: PCN vs. ASNT In Reply to LK at 15:54 Sep-24-2010 .

There you go pal, just download it.

https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1uz4yBIVO61kn152K4wmjRs9Zptm0wmiTQ13X8KM4Vx8&hl=en

 
08:57 Sep-27-2010

Leonids Krajevs

NDT Inspector,
Norway,
Joined May 2008
104
Re: PCN vs. ASNT In Reply to André Ribeiro at 17:45 Sep-24-2010 .

Thank you.

 


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