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02:39 Dec-07-2008

Ed Ginzel

R & D, -
Materials Research Institute,
Canada,
Joined Nov 1998
1197
Universities

Of late I have noticed that Mark Davis has used the title University of Ultrasonics for his UT training facility in Alabama. I would like to ask the forum members for their opinion and at the same time ask Mark Davis for an explanation why he thinks it is OK to use the word University as a descriptor for his training facility (considering the nearly 1200 year history of the word ...see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_universities_in_continuous_operation)

By definition a university is an institution of higher education and research, which grants academic degrees in a variety of subjects.

This forum is composed of a broad cross section of the NDT community, but a quick glance at the membership indicates a strong representation from the academic community. I am concerned that such a loose reference to the term university, for what amounts to just a trades training facility, is a misrepresentation of the institution of academic excellence (notwithstanding the American unregistered form of trademark associated with the term) and denigrates my degrees and the university I obtained them from.



 
03:03 Dec-07-2008

bob sudharmin

Engineering, Reliability and Integrity Eng
Shell Malaysia Trading,
Malaysia,
Joined Jan 2008
54
Re: Universities Would you then take into considerations and arbitrate on the fact that there are organisations that initiate their own training centers to accomodate their own needs and called them universities? A school by any other name is still a school.

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Of late I have noticed that Mark Davis has used the title University of Ultrasonics for his UT training facility in Alabama. I would like to ask the forum members for their opinion and at the same time ask Mark Davis for an explanation why he thinks it is OK to use the word University as a descriptor for his training facility (considering the nearly 1200 year history of the word ...see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_universities_in_continuous_operation)
: By definition a university is an institution of higher education and research, which grants academic degrees in a variety of subjects.
: This forum is composed of a broad cross section of the NDT community, but a quick glance at the membership indicates a strong representation from the academic community. I am concerned that such a loose reference to the term university, for what amounts to just a trades training facility, is a misrepresentation of the institution of academic excellence (notwithstanding the American unregistered form of trademark associated with the term) and denigrates my degrees and the university I obtained them from.
------------ End Original Message ------------




 
03:17 Dec-07-2008
Emil Shavakis
Re: Universities ----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Of late I have noticed that Mark Davis has used the title University of Ultrasonics for his UT training facility in Alabama. I would like to ask the forum members for their opinion and at the same time ask Mark Davis for an explanation why he thinks it is OK to use the word University as a descriptor for his training facility (considering the nearly 1200 year history of the word ...see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_universities_in_continuous_operation)
: By definition a university is an institution of higher education and research, which grants academic degrees in a variety of subjects.
: This forum is composed of a broad cross section of the NDT community, but a quick glance at the membership indicates a strong representation from the academic community. I am concerned that such a loose reference to the term university, for what amounts to just a trades training facility, is a misrepresentation of the institution of academic excellence (notwithstanding the American unregistered form of trademark associated with the term) and denigrates my degrees and the university I obtained them from.
------------ End Original Message ------------

Sir - Is this a true posting by the esteemed Ed Ginzel? Is this truly a concern about denigration of someone's academic credentials or is it that both yourself and Mr Davis are in the same business - NDT training?

This doesn't seem a proper use of the forum, but as an editor I believe Mr. Ginzel knows the rules.

Personally, I am no more offended by Davis's name selection than by a company name that equates itself to the relative motion of celestial bodies.

Emil Shavakis AAS, BA, BSME, MBA, Phd


 
09:05 Dec-07-2008

Dr. Ulrich (Uli) Mletzko

R & D, Retired
Germany,
Joined Nov 1998
89
Re: Universities ----------- Start Original Message -----------
Of late I have noticed that Mark Davis has used the title University of Ultrasonics for his UT training facility in Alabama. I would like to ask the forum members for their opinion and at the same time ask Mark Davis for an explanation why he thinks it is OK to use the word University as a descriptor for his training facility (considering the nearly 1200 year history of the word ...see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_universities_in_continuous_operation)
: : By definition a university is an institution of higher education and research, which grants academic degrees in a variety of subjects.------------ End Original Message ------------

I think, that Ed Ginzel is right in general. For example, in Germany the expression 'University' for an educational institution is protected by law, and a university almost always is operated by the government as a public institution. Minimal criteria are the right to award the title 'doctor' and a special selection of the teachers / professors. Even if a private institution claims to be a university, the same criteria have to be applied, supervised by the government.
And I know that in many other countries the rules are similar. So don't speak about universities, when you think of professional NDT schools, colleges or academies below the doctor/master level. This has to be separated from the fact that those other schools may have a high reputation within their class.

Regards
Uli Mletzko
(just 3 months retired from University of Stuttgart, Germany)


 
01:06 Dec-07-2008

Nigel Armstrong

Engineering, - Specialist services
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 2000
1094
Re: Universities Ed

Perhaps the cultural values of Canadians are much closer to those of their European cousins than those of US citizens.

Herr Dr Metzko's response is, in my opinion, appropriately European. Certainly naming a short-course vocational training school as a university, no matter how advanced beyond the norm the material is, would be considered classic hubris in Europe. But I suspect the attitudes of US citizens may be somewhat more liberal than our own in allowing (even expecting) commercial enterprisesto choose a self-aggrandising name, numerous companies in the US are called Acme! I think US forum readers will know that this is essen tially a training establishment and accommodate the nomenclature.

However there is also the phrase "caveat emptor" (buyer be aware). Personally, I would not rule out attending a course at any institution which I judged would stretch my capabilities and extend my knowledge and understanding, no matter how it styled itself. Mr Davis has posted some interesting and challenging concepts regarding ultrasonic testing - but he is not alone - and i recognise also that you, Ed and Herr Doctor Metzko have done much to enlighten the less academically inclined (and I count myself amongst that group).

By the way there is also "The Penetrant Professor" (Met-L-Check) in the US.

Best regards

Nigel


----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Of late I have noticed that Mark Davis has used the title University of Ultrasonics for his UT training facility in Alabama. I would like to ask the forum members for their opinion and at the same time ask Mark Davis for an explanation why he thinks it is OK to use the word University as a descriptor for his training facility (considering the nearly 1200 year history of the word ...see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_universities_in_continuous_operation)
: By definition a university is an institution of higher education and research, which grants academic degrees in a variety of subjects.
: This forum is composed of a broad cross section of the NDT community, but a quick glance at the membership indicates a strong representation from the academic community. I am concerned that such a loose reference to the term university, for what amounts to just a trades training facility, is a misrepresentation of the institution of academic excellence (notwithstanding the American unregistered form of trademark associated with the term) and denigrates my degrees and the university I obtained them from.
------------ End Original Message ------------




 
00:51 Dec-08-2008

Joe Buckley

Consultant, ASNT L-III, Honorary Secretary of BINDT
Level X NDT, BINDT,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 1999
512
Re: Universities "numerous companies in the US are called Acme! "

I agree, as long as all Marks courses teach operator checks using an ACME eye test chart

(http://home.nc.rr.com/tuco/looney/acme/eye.html)

and use an ACME X-ray machine "used in hospitals and physician offices all over the world"
I think we could let him off...

More seriously, this usage may seem arrogant in the extreme to those of us with a European academic background, (Mine was number 25 on the 'old' list) but in a US context it is perfectly normal. The word simply does not have the significance in America that it has come to have in the rest of the world.

There are many extremely diverse institutions in the US that call themselves universities. McDonalds "Hamburger university" springs to mind. I don't like that it is so, but it is.

So I guess I don't have a huge problem with the "UU" name at all - Its fairly catchy, and I doubt anyone will be misled. Yes of course it completely destroys any possibility of international operations, but I guess that's not a major issue.

Joe

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Ed
: Perhaps the cultural values of Canadians are much closer to those of their European cousins than those of US citizens.
: Herr Dr Metzko's response is, in my opinion, appropriately European. Certainly naming a short-course vocational training school as a university, no matter how advanced beyond the norm the material is, would be considered classic hubris in Europe. But I suspect the attitudes of US citizens may be somewhat more liberal than our own in allowing (even expecting) commercial enterprisesto choose a self-aggrandising name, numerous companies in the US are called Acme! I think US forum readers will know that this is essen tially a training establishment and accommodate the nomenclature.
: However there is also the phrase "caveat emptor" (buyer be aware). Personally, I would not rule out attending a course at any institution which I judged would stretch my capabilities and extend my knowledge and understanding, no matter how it styled itself. Mr Davis has posted some interesting and challenging concepts regarding ultrasonic testing - but he is not alone - and i recognise also that you, Ed and Herr Doctor Metzko have done much to enlighten the less academically inclined (and I count myself amongst that group).
: By the way there is also "The Penetrant Professor" (Met-L-Check) in the US.
: Best regards
: Nigel
:
: : Of late I have noticed that Mark Davis has used the title University of Ultrasonics for his UT training facility in Alabama. I would like to ask the forum members for their opinion and at the same time ask Mark Davis for an explanation why he thinks it is OK to use the word University as a descriptor for his training facility (considering the nearly 1200 year history of the word ...see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_universities_in_continuous_operation)
: : By definition a university is an institution of higher education and research, which grants academic degrees in a variety of subjects.
: : This forum is composed of a broad cross section of the NDT community, but a quick glance at the membership indicates a strong representation from the academic community. I am concerned that such a loose reference to the term university, for what amounts to just a trades training facility, is a misrepresentation of the institution of academic excellence (notwithstanding the American unregistered form of trademark associated with the term) and denigrates my degrees and the university I obtained them from.
------------ End Original Message ------------




 
05:01 Dec-08-2008

John Brunk

Engineering, NDT Level III
Self employed, part-time,
USA,
Joined Oct 1999
158
Re: Universities ----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Of late I have noticed that Mark Davis has used the title University of Ultrasonics for his UT training facility in Alabama. I would like to ask the forum members for their opinion and at the same time ask Mark Davis for an explanation why he thinks it is OK to use the word University as a descriptor for his training facility (considering the nearly 1200 year history of the word ...see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_universities_in_continuous_operation)
: : : By definition a university is an institution of higher education and research, which grants academic degrees in a variety of subjects.------------ End Original Message ------------
: I think, that Ed Ginzel is right in general. For example, in Germany the expression 'University' for an educational institution is protected by law, and a university almost always is operated by the government as a public institution. Minimal criteria are the right to award the title 'doctor' and a special selection of the teachers / professors. Even if a private institution claims to be a university, the same criteria have to be applied, supervised by the government.
: And I know that in many other countries the rules are similar. So don't speak about universities, when you think of professional NDT schools, colleges or academies below the doctor/master level. This has to be separated from the fact that those other schools may have a high reputation within their class.
: Regards
: Uli Mletzko
: (just 3 months retired from University of Stuttgart, Germany)
------------ End Original Message ------------

In the USA there is a fast food chain that calls its training facility "Hamburger University".



 
08:03 Dec-09-2008

Michel Couture

NDT Inspector,
consultant,
Canada,
Joined Sep 2006
806
Re: Universities ----------- Start Original Message -----------
: : Of late I have noticed that Mark Davis has used the title University of Ultrasonics for his UT training facility in Alabama. I would like to ask the forum members for their opinion and at the same time ask Mark Davis for an explanation why he thinks it is OK to use the word University as a descriptor for his training facility (considering the nearly 1200 year history of the word ...see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_universities_in_continuous_operation)
: : : : By definition a university is an institution of higher education and research, which grants academic degrees in a variety of subjects.------------ End Original Message ------------
: : I think, that Ed Ginzel is right in general. For example, in Germany the expression 'University' for an educational institution is protected by law, and a university almost always is operated by the government as a public institution. Minimal criteria are the right to award the title 'doctor' anda special selection of the teachers / professors. Even if a private institution claims to be a university, the same criteria have to be applied, supervised by the government.
: : And I know that in many other countries the rules are similar. So don't speak about universities, when you think of professional NDT schools, colleges or academies below the doctor/master level. This has to be separated from the fact that those other schools may have a high reputation within their class.
: : Regards
: : Uli Mletzko
: : (just 3 months retired from University of Stuttgart, Germany)
: In the USA there is a fast food chain that calls its training facility "Hamburger University".
------------ End Original Message ------------

Hi Guys,

Just want to tell you that I'm a graduate of Anhauser-Bush Beer University, the 2 p.m. class of September 7, 2001, Bush Garden, Florida.

Cheers


 
05:40 Dec-12-2008
tj
Re: Universities Ed,

I see no reason to feel that the reputation of your degree is threatened by the University of Ultrasonics. If so, then maybe you should take their course before this economy collapses. Lighten up, self study is much more of a personal reward anyway.

Regards


 
09:11 Dec-15-2008

Ed Ginzel

R & D, -
Materials Research Institute,
Canada,
Joined Nov 1998
1197
Re: Universities Thank you those who made serious comments (the less serious were also informative). My concern was indeed as Dr. Mletzko implied, i.e. that the institution of university (at least in Europe and Canada) is entrenched in law so the cavalier use of ‘university’ could be considered illegal (or at least unethical). But even as a next door neighbour to the USA I was unaware of the cultural divide that Nigel so well pointed out regarding the matter. As a result of the legal status in Europe and Canada I suppose I should rest easy as it is as Joe stated; ‘…it completely destroys any possibility of international operations’. Therefore it is not likely to be an issue here.

---------- Start Original Message -----------
: Of late I have noticed that Mark Davis has used the title University of Ultrasonics for his UT training facility in Alabama. I would like to ask the forum members for their opinion and at the same time ask Mark Davis for an explanation why he thinks it is OK to use the word University as adescriptor for his training facility (considering the nearly 1200 year history of the word ...see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_universities_in_continuous_operation)
: By definition a university is an institution of higher education and research, which grants academic degrees in a variety of subjects.
: This forum is composed of a broad cross section of the NDT community, but a quick glance at the membership indicates a strong representation from the academic community. I am concerned that such a loose reference to the term university, for what amounts to just a trades training facility, is a misrepresentation of the institution of academic excellence (notwithstanding the American unregistered form of trademark associated with the term) and denigrates my degrees and the university I obtained them from.
------------ End Original Message ------------




 
00:03 Dec-24-2008
Jim Stuckless
Re: Universities I found myself reading this string and something struck me as odd. I'm hearing that SOME people are upset with this individuals usage of the word "university" (oops.... should I have used a capital 'U' there? I dont want to offend anyone) in the title of his business.
They complain that it denigrates their own university degree and consequently the effort it took for them to achieve it. What I didn't see was whether or not the individual was misleading others into believing he is offering a service other than what he has stated. I have not spoken to him personally... nor have I been to his university... but I can't bring myself to believe he is telling people they will receive a university degree simply by attending one of his courses.
I would like to think someone who does actually possess a university degree could figure that out. After all... I DON'T have a university degree and I figured it out.
You feel that you have been dealt a personal slight in some way by his usage of the word university... maybe now you have some perspective of what it's like to be a tradesman and hear those with university degrees denigrate the training the tradesmen undertook.


 


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