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Sonotron NDT
Original developer and manufacturer of advanced ultrasonic instruments

3758 views
11:31 Oct-03-2009
rahut
descrimination

See all europeans

expect to have same qualification as they have.

it is noticed that most of Asians have better qualification and more productive than Europeans.

however people don't want to pay same package whaht they are offer to Europeans, not only that even rotation and other facilities as well

 
13:06 Oct-03-2009
John Doe
Re: descrimination In Reply to rahut at 11:31 Oct-03-2009 (Opening).

Although I sympathise with you, there is a big difference between being cerified and qualified.

 
14:38 Oct-03-2009

anjafo

NDT Inspector
Norway,
Joined Aug 2009
204
Re: descrimination In Reply to John Doe at 13:06 Oct-03-2009 .

"it is noticed that most of Asians have better qualification and more productive than Europeans."

well this is questionable for a start. calling it a diploma doesnt mean its better ;)

and dont blame us, blame your home economy and the other asians willing (and able) to work for less.

:)

 
14:59 Oct-03-2009

S.R.G.PRABHU

Consultant, AUT specialist
FREELANCE,
India,
Joined Aug 2008
63
Re: descrimination In Reply to anjafo at 14:38 Oct-03-2009 .

I think we can't generalize things like these. There are many Asian engineers and senior inspectors like me paid on par with any other western expat , in offshore projects. It depends on the invidual, and his expertise and also communication skill, and problem solving ability in a short time available during production, and many more... Most of the European countries require an EU permit to work in that country, so only the europeans can work there.. Even in India , a recent offshore project offered to Indian personnel,day rates comparable with western expats... It is going to be a never ending discussion, about qualification and certification, and there will be no impact on the exisiting rates offered to the asians by this discussion...It depends on the company policy to decide the package based on their budget and the candidates are free to accept or reject. In fact, in my career, I rejected many low offers and also companies refused to accept my demand on many occasions because their project budjet restrictions!!!So, it is better to get more experience in latest technologies and equipments , get certified and then I think automatically the pay will become more attractive..

 
17:00 Oct-03-2009

Nigel Armstrong

Engineering, - Specialist services
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 2000
1094
Re: descrimination In Reply to rahut at 11:31 Oct-03-2009 (Opening).

Dear Rahut

ndt.net is intrinsically a technical forum and as such there is no place for such an illogcal rant as "most of (sic) Asians...(are) more productive than Europeans", nor the inverse nor any such odious illogical comparisons. It appears that you have a "bee in your bonnet" and I hope that you realise that you are dealing with your frustrations by making "Europeans" in general your scapegoats. Please I do not doubt that you have come across an European who you think less "qualified" and "productive" than yourself earning more than you do - this is the nature of human society, a society where often those of most benefit to that society earn least and those of least benefit often earn most. Are you prepared to work to remedy such injustice - its a long hard slog requiring selfless dedication with possibly no tangible results in your own lifetime.

As NDT engineers/practitioners/inspectors we are a band of brothers attempting to pose problems and find solutions for each other and for posterity no matter our condition, race, nationality or religion. I respect as much the desire to learn of all people as I do the depth of learning and the willingness to share that learning of posters from all backgrounds - I access the forums practically every day because of the quality of information shared.

Regarding pay scale differentials, Mr Prabhu's post is the complete intelligent answer to your "opinion", as he succintly points out the futility, both to you personally and in general, of pursuing such a topic.

I hope you reconcile your disturbance and appreciate the benefit to you of working in a multi-national environment.

 
20:38 Oct-03-2009
Gary Whitworth
Re: descrimination In Reply to rahut at 11:31 Oct-03-2009 (Opening).

What gives you the right to criticise how much someone else is earning, regardless of race and qualifications ?
Such a short sighted and negative view.
You have the European problem because i suspect that no one in Europe will give you a job.
I find your statement disgusting and the chances of you getting anything positive from this is marginal and quite possibly the offer of work within Europe being seriously reduced as it is a very small world.

 
23:00 Oct-03-2009

P V SASTRY

R & D, NDT tecniques metallurgy
TAKEN VRS FROM THE POSITION OF SR. DEPUTY GENERAL MANAGER BHEL CORPORATE R&D,
India,
Joined Jan 2003
195
Re: descrimination In Reply to rahut at 11:31 Oct-03-2009 (Opening).

My Dear Rahut,

I sympathize for your frustration but cannot agree with your comments. I do not see your profile in the forum so there is no way to know your qualifications, experience and the work atmosphere where you have picked up such ideas.

By the time I have seen the forum mail already four gentlemen namely Mr. John Doe, Mr. S.R.G.PRABHU, Mr. Anjafo and Mr. Nigel Armstrong posted their replies to your comments.

I entirely agree with each one of their comments. All that you have to do is carefully read and analyze their mature and restrained replies to your not so apt comments.

I did a stint of 7 months training in NDT and metallurgy in Europe, about 35 years back. Subsequently visited other western countries including USA at various times in connection with NDT and other technical aspects. In all those occasions, I have learned more about their positive attitudes apart from NDT. If I have to single out two outstanding aspects of their culture they are highly diligent and their commitment to systems is total.

Well, I can go on with this topic for ever but the point I am making is that you have obviously jumped to your conclusions with limited and superficial observations. As Mr. Prabhu said if you want to be counted, you have to work hard and no short cuts in that. If you are ignored once step up your performance and make it difficult to be ignored second time. While there may be a few local and purely subjective aberrations no system can ever put a lid on one’s knowledge from shining.

I expect you to post a positive mail in the forum in the near future.

With Best wishes

P V SASTRY

 
10:23 Oct-04-2009

Shaun Botha

NDT Inspector, SNT-TC-1A and SAQCC (SAIW)
South Africa,
Joined Sep 2008
1
Re: descrimination In Reply to rahut at 11:31 Oct-03-2009 (Opening).

Dear Rahut,

I have read your post and I followed what other NDT pro's have posted in reply to your post. I think that there are two contributing factors when it comes to rate of pay. Firstly you must bear in mind that the cost of living in a European country is ten times as expensive as in India. I am working on a project in Saudi and I have spoken to many of my Indian friends. They earn about a quarter of what I earn, but their living expenses at home are a quarter of what mine are in South-Africa.

The second factor is that many training schools(in India) are going for mass production of classes. When you flood the market with poorly trained individuals who are hungry, they will work for any rate of pay. I am not saying that you do not know your way around your job, but I have encountered many NDT techs who have a very poor understanding of NDT in general. This is most common in specialised areas of NDT i.e radiography and ultrasonics. I get the feeling that you are a hard worker and that you do a good job. Stick to this and remember that knowledge is power. Continue your hard work and study to further your knowledge. Compare apples with apples.

 
12:23 Oct-05-2009
David
Re: descrimination In Reply to rahut at 11:31 Oct-03-2009 (Opening).

Rahut,

I have worked with many "asians" in the Middle East and Far East and find the same types of people that we get with Europeans and Americans, the very competent to the dangerously incompetent.
Pay rates are based on what you will accept, if you think the pay and conditions offered are not suitable, walk away. The only way to improve is if everyone refuses to accept then the companies have to up the terms.
As for differing pay rates, these do depend a lot on home country rates (especially in the Middle East), if you work abroad you expect some multiplier of the home country rate, I once worked with some Indian technicians who were on 10 times their home country rates and went home after their work very wealthy people. I wish I could have got an uplift of 10 times my average home salary. They were willing to sacrifice increased home leaves and accommodation status to maximise money earned.

We also had a hard core of excellent asian technicians and supervisors who were on western pay scales but they had proven themselves and were the equal of any technician irrespective of home country.

As Shaun Botha says, there are a lot of people coming on the market with very little experience except in a compressed training course who have to be overseen and further trained at company expense. The company obviously wants to reclaim these costs and one way is to suppress wage levels. So they affect not only their countrymen but everyone on the project.

This not only applies to Level I and II technicians, some holding Level III certification following a training course have a big negative impact on our profession as they know almost nothing but go around spreading incorrect information and demean the rest of the Level III's. Companies and clients rely on the Level III for knowledgable and helpful information often on safety critical components. Unfortunately where the company is only interested in profit, a Level III working at a cheap rate is very attractive.

Obviously you feel that you are not getting sufficient reward for your efforts, but if you are capable and hard working there are companies out there that appreciate this and it is up to you to find them and prove yourself. By taking low paid jobs with poor benefits, you are not helping yourself or others in the same position to improve conditions.

 
13:06 Oct-05-2009

S.R.G.PRABHU

Consultant, AUT specialist
FREELANCE,
India,
Joined Aug 2008
63
Re: descrimination In Reply to David at 12:23 Oct-05-2009 .

David,
I assume you are an western expat. I was never interested in working in Singapore for not only they pay astonishingly low rates but the jobs are few. The term 10 times uplift than their home country salary of asians doesn't sound appropriate. I can't imagine lot of people(Asians) skipping their vacation and making more money. I am afraid it is their own problem or wish, and please mind it, many asians donot spend the money earned , as much lavish as some of my friends from western countries do. They(Asians) want to make money and settle down in their home country...is it anything wrong? My chief in one of my projects from USA stayed one whole year in Paris skipping his regular rotation....Just to save money...Is it anything wrong? So, please donot go again to the point that asians making 10 times money, skip vacation etc etc...Just try to give some information about the topic discussed.i.e,
Descrimination.

 
14:28 Oct-05-2009
del
Re: descrimination In Reply to S.R.G.PRABHU at 13:06 Oct-05-2009 .

Guys ! relax dont fight over wages and all that !

Work hard , make money , play hard!

anyways its doesnt matter how much u earn ! there is something for everyone in bangkok !!

Cheers!!

 
14:33 Oct-05-2009

Phil

NDT Inspector, Radiation Safety
BINDT, MIAQP,
United Kingdom,
Joined Mar 2009
151
Re: descrimination In Reply to rahut at 11:31 Oct-03-2009 (Opening).

Rahut,

The first thing you must learn is as we Europeans do is you signed the contract now live up to it do not moan about it.

You have the same option we do if you do not like it leave, do not blame other people for a contract you signed !!

Then next time try and get better contract conditions, but remember no one forced you to sign the contract, you made that choice yourself.

 
11:34 Oct-06-2009

James Gauthier

NDT Inspector, Operations Manager
GE Inspection Services,
USA,
Joined Nov 2007
25
Re: descrimination In Reply to S.R.G.PRABHU at 13:06 Oct-05-2009 .

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I thought this was supposed to be a technical forum? It seems this matter has been discussed quite a bit. I don't suppose anyone has any technical matters they want to discuss do they?

Lets get back to what this forum was meant for. (A good technical discussion)

Regards,

James Gauthier



Comment from the moderator: Although this topic was posted to the general board I do agree with James. Let us stop this thread and discuss general AND technical discussions of real NDT matters. Rolf.

 
18:57 Oct-06-2009
DG
Re: descrimination In Reply to S.R.G.PRABHU at 13:06 Oct-05-2009 .

Descrimination?
I think this is not the issue but, rather a issue of local labor laws in the countrys involved.
and the issue of people willing to "work for Less" so this drives salarys down.
I have met many Asians working in australia for instance, and YES they are on Equal Wages. But however this is the LAW in this country. Many companys still try to get around it though, and once the authoritys find out it made news headlines. I.E. Mcdermits angel project"
and also why Attach europeans? I have met many underpaid Europeans. This is not a issue directly affecting Asians. Maybe just more prominent as there are more Asians in this world and more willing to work for less, hence why they stand out from the rest.
"
and I have compared my Cost of living in my home country with fellow asian workers, and when they Actually found out the Cost of my living I.E. monthly mortgage payments and the cost of Fuel and food/transport/ general living. they infact where Alot better off than myself.
So more of reason of why they are happy to accept lower wages.

 
13:08 Oct-07-2009

S.R.G.PRABHU

Consultant, AUT specialist
FREELANCE,
India,
Joined Aug 2008
63
Re: descrimination In Reply to DG at 18:57 Oct-06-2009 .

Gentlemen from western countries....
Please note that the living standards have changed in India drastically in the past few years...If you compare the living standard in your country and mine, you would be surprised that in cities like Mumbai and Chennai, it is costlier than Europe except Switzerland!!!
So, please stop this discussion about the salary earned and just go back to technical discussion by which all will beneifit...I sincerely think that We can't explain certain things in life like some people born rich, get jobs easily, come up in career ladder with lot of ease...Can we??Thats life and destiny...

 


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