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ULTRASOUND INSTITUTE
The Ultrasound Institute can develop new advanced ultrasonic measurement, imaging and NDT techniques for non-conventional applications.

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Technical Discussions
Hamid
Engineering, ms. mechanical
Iran, Joined Sep 2003, 1

Hamid

Engineering, ms. mechanical
Iran,
Joined Sep 2003
1
01:55 Sep-17-2003
can we use ultrasonic test for testing the spot welds ?

hi .
i am hamid from iran .
i work in biggest car factory here .
here we test spot welds in destructive method and i want to propose our managers about using of ultrasonic test insted of DT.
but i need more information about using this method in car industry .
could you tell me which company use this method for spot welding ?
if you have any information let me know by email or answer me here .
please get in touch with me .
thanks any way .

HAMID>


    
 
 
Michael Dalichow
Michael Dalichow
06:24 Sep-17-2003
Re: can we use ultrasonic test for testing the spot welds ?
----------- Start Original Message -----------
: hi .
: i am hamid from iran .
: i work in biggest car factory here .
: here we test spot welds in destructive method and i want to propose our managers about using of ultrasonic test insted of DT.
: but i need more information about using this method in car industry .
: could you tell me which company use this method for spot welding ?
: if you have any information let me know by email or answer me here .
: please get in touch with me .
: thanks any way .
: HAMID>
------------ End Original Message ------------

Hamid,

Izfp (in Saarbrücken, Germany) has developed a nondestructive technique, using ultrasound, to measure the diameters of the weld nugget on-line. This technique permits monitoring and documenting the condition of each individual weld spot.

Please contact me at mhd@qnetworld.com for more information.



    
 
 
Daniel H.Rice Consulting Services
Consultant, Ultrasonic Evaluation of Resistance Spot Welding
Daniel H. Rice Consulting Services, USA, Joined Jan 2003, 10

Daniel H.Rice Consulting Services

Consultant, Ultrasonic Evaluation of Resistance Spot Welding
Daniel H. Rice Consulting Services,
USA,
Joined Jan 2003
10
09:02 Sep-17-2003
Re: can we use ultrasonic test for testing the spot welds ? yes see my website
----------- Start Original Message -----------
: hi .
: i am hamid from iran .
: i work in biggest car factory here .
: here we test spot welds in destructive method and i want to propose our managers about using of ultrasonic test insted of DT.
: but i need more information about using this method in car industry .
: could you tell me which company use this method for spot welding ?
: if you have any information let me know by email or answer me here .
: please get in touch with me .
: thanks any way .
: HAMID>
------------ End Original Message ------------
I have been inspecting resistance spot welds since 1985 using ultrasonic evaluation methods.
But, the new inovations since 1998 which I Drove while at Ford Motor Company. Are changing the way we do business.
There is a cost savings if implemented properly, but if implemented incorrectly it will be prone to failure.




    
 
 
Goeran Vogt
Director,
Vogt Ultrasonics GmbH, Germany, Joined Nov 1998, 4

Goeran Vogt

Director,
Vogt Ultrasonics GmbH,
Germany,
Joined Nov 1998
4
09:03 Sep-17-2003
Re: can we use ultrasonic test for testing the spot welds ?
Dear Hamid,

there is the SPOTLINE System of Vogt Werkstoffprüfsysteme GmbH whichis working inline and contolling as well as measuring the spotwelding during the production by placing ultrasonic sensors onto the electrodes. THe system is new develloped and works since two years in a production plant of DaimlerChrysler as test installation. The results are really good and the measuring of spots is reproducable.
The system now is prepared for the integration in quantities to get a 10% automated spotweld control . For more information please sent your request to info@vogt-ndt.de

Best regards

Göran Vogt

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: : hi .
: : i am hamid from iran .
: : i work in biggest car factory here .
: : here we test spot welds in destructive method and i want to propose our managers about using of ultrasonic test insted of DT.
: : but i need more information about using this method in car industry .
: : could you tell me which company use this method for spot welding ?
: : if you have any information let me know by email or answer me here .
: : please get in touch with me .
: : thanks any way .
: : HAMID>
: Hamid,
: Izfp (in Saarbrücken, Germany) has developed a nondestructive technique, using ultrasound, to measure the diameters of the weld nugget on-line. This technique permits monitoring and documenting the condition of each individual weld spot.
: Please contact me at mhd@qnetworld.com for more information.
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 
John O'Brien
Consultant, -
Chevron ETC , USA, Joined Jan 2000, 278

John O'Brien

Consultant, -
Chevron ETC ,
USA,
Joined Jan 2000
278
09:58 Sep-17-2003
Re: can we use ultrasonic test for testing the spot welds ?
Hamid

4 point Resisitivity Testing is widely used for this application by many motor manufacturers Volvo/Ford etc etc.

If you need more information please contact me directly



    
 
 
Ethan
Ethan
01:35 Sep-19-2003
Re: can we use ultrasonic test for testing the spot welds ?
The ultrasonic technique is widely accepted and used by the US Big three, most European and many Japanese car manufacturers as well as applicance manufacturers and others.

Please feel free to contact me for more information
Best Regards
e


    
 
 
G. Vogt
Director,
Vogt Ultrasonics GmbH, Germany, Joined Nov 1998, 4

G. Vogt

Director,
Vogt Ultrasonics GmbH,
Germany,
Joined Nov 1998
4
09:08 Sep-23-2003
Re: can we use ultrasonic test for testing the spot welds ?
Dear Sir,

please have a look on our Website www.vogt-ndt.de. You will find mainly to ultrasonic systems for spotweld testing:
SWI-100, SWI 101 Ultrasonic instrument for hand testing (A famous ScanMaster product)
and
Spotline, our most advanced system for inline testing of spotwelds during the production by using sensors placed in the electrodes (An innovative Vogt ).

Best regards

Göran Vogt
(General Manager)
Vogt Werkstoffprüfsysteme GmbH----------- Start Original Message -----------
: The ultrasonic technique is widely accepted and used by the US Big three, most European and many Japanese car manufacturers as well as applicance manufacturers and others.
: Please feel free to contact me for more information
: Best Regards
: e
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 
dave yorke
dave yorke
04:02 Oct-23-2003
Re: can we use ultrasonic test for testing the spot welds ?
dear sir could you please give me any infomation on ultrasonic testing of spotwelds yours D Yorke LAND ROVER ULTRASONIC WELD TRAINING DEPT




    
 
 
Daniel H.Rice
Consultant, Ultrasonic Evaluation of Resistance Spot Welding
Daniel H. Rice Consulting Services, USA, Joined Jan 2003, 10

Daniel H.Rice

Consultant, Ultrasonic Evaluation of Resistance Spot Welding
Daniel H. Rice Consulting Services,
USA,
Joined Jan 2003
10
00:00 Oct-24-2003
Re: can we use ultrasonic test for testing the spot welds ?

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: dear sir could you please give me any infomation on ultrasonic testing of spotwelds yours D Yorke LAND ROVER ULTRASONIC WELD TRAINING DEPT
------------ End Original Message ------------

Answer..
After working at Ford Vehicle Operations for the past 5 years I have seen, where politics has more affect than scientific data. There are two answers, to your question.
1. Yes, the scientific data supports the use of ultrasonic evaluation via two pieces of equipment. Irt Scan master SWI100 or SWI101. Or the Krautkramer Ultralog 2.0 and Ultralog data base manager.
Both of these machines have Automatic Evaluation Assistants.
Genk and the German community won the Henry Ford Technology Award for 2000. This includes not only, lab data but a six month launch "On the Job".
The learning curve is 90 days, that has been well documented. Durring this time dual Evaluation DT and UT are performed. Upon qualifying the operator, then is allowed to go to a reduced destructive testing.
I suggested with qualifying in the following method.

Compairson of coupons, or Production parts destructively qualifying the ultrasonic method. Statisical compairson of the ultrasonic method to the destructive method.

As demonstrated in VO the statisic's can allow the manager of the ultrasonic method to evaluate each employee on a daily, monthly and yearly basis, since I have left VO this has been abandon, and the disicipline dropped. There has been a proven cost savings, however mismanagement has allowed that to slip.

2. NO, ultrasonic Evaluation of Resistance Spot welding A_Scan method can not be maintained without supervison, Managment, and people who know what they are doing. (political answer). And amasingly they have lost all the data, and the L4 letter that Jim Dolfi wrote on how to.

I realize that this is a conflicting answer and appears to be a little on the angry side but, I am frustrated that this method was not researched more. I am currently working with chryslers method for North America. I have been flawless in the last, 1000 front structures made out of DP600.

I would recomend that due to the complexity that you use some one like myself for your initial training and coorelations, and programing. The suppliers don't know and have had a hard time setting some of the inspections.
A welding engineer with a minium of 2 years with ultrasonic method and A person that has achieved Level III by test in accordance with ASNT-TC-1A.


    
 
 
Nick Welland
Nick Welland
02:13 Oct-24-2003
Re: can we use ultrasonic test for testing the spot welds ?
----------- Start Original Message -----------
: : dear sir could you please give me any infomation on ultrasonic testing of spotwelds yours D Yorke LAND ROVER ULTRASONIC WELD TRAINING DEPT
: Answer..
: After working at Ford Vehicle Operations for the past 5 years I have seen, where politics has more affect than scientific data. There are two answers, to your question.
: 1. Yes, the scientific data supports the use of ultrasonic evaluation via two pieces of equipment. Irt Scan master SWI100 or SWI101. Or the Krautkramer Ultralog 2.0 and Ultralog data base manager.
: Both of these machines have Automatic Evaluation Assistants.
: Genk and the German community won the Henry Ford Technology Award for 2000. This includes not only, lab data but a six month launch "On the Job".
: The learning curve is 90 days, that has been well documented. Durring this time dual Evaluation DT and UT are performed. Upon qualifying the operator, then is allowed to go to a reduced destructive testing.
: I suggested with qualifying in the following method.
: Compairson of coupons, or Production parts destructively qualifying the ultrasonic method. Statisical compairson of the ultrasonic method to the destructive method.
: As demonstrated in VO the statisic's can allow the manager of the ultrasonic method to evaluate each employee on a daily, monthly and yearly basis, since I have left VO this has been abandon, and the disicipline dropped. There has been a proven cost savings, however mismanagement has allowed that to slip.
: 2. NO, ultrasonic Evaluation of Resistance Spot welding A_Scan method can not be maintained without supervison, Managment, and people who know what they are doing. (political answer). And amasingly they have lost all the data, and the L4 letter that Jim Dolfi wrote on how to.
: I realize that this is a conflicting answer and appears to be a little on the angry side but, I am frustrated that this method was not researchedmore. I am currently working with chryslers method for North America. I have been flawless in the last, 1000 front structures made out of DP600.
: I would recomend that due to the complexity that you use some one like myself for your initial training and coorelations, and programing. The suppliers don't know and have had a hard time setting some of the inspections.
: A welding engineer with a minium of 2 years with ultrasonic method and A person that has achieved Level III by test in accordance with ASNT-TC-1A.
------------ End Original Message ------------

You have touched a raw nerve here, Dan. Yes, the ultrasonic method of evaluation of spot welds has been well researched and should be in wide use. Until we have NDT and Production Managers who are abreast of current developments and who believe in the profession of NDT, good methods will go begging. I have most exposure to the Krautkramer system and believe this is the most convenient point at which to investigate the technology. Probably 2years experience with spot welding technology and Level 3 UT is needed for a supervisor or manager in this area, but a PCN Level 2 UT Welds tech is competent to work with the method, and a properly trained Level 1 could do it, given the written criteria and proper supervision.
Best Regards
Nick


    
 
 
Muhammad Fazil
Muhammad Fazil
02:02 Oct-27-2003
I want to know information about welding condtion ?
----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Dear Sir,
: I am doing working in Pak Suzuki motor compant in welding shop
I want to know about welding condition datk

How I can set a good data a better caondition and also tell me about seting mathod with chart and formulas

Thank you

Muhammad Fazilt



    
 
 
Daniel H. Rice
Consultant, Ultrasonic Evaluation of Resistance Spot Welding
Daniel H. Rice Consulting Services, USA, Joined Jan 2003, 10

Daniel H. Rice

Consultant, Ultrasonic Evaluation of Resistance Spot Welding
Daniel H. Rice Consulting Services,
USA,
Joined Jan 2003
10
05:02 Oct-28-2003
Re: I want to know information about welding condtion ?
----------- Start Original Message -----------
: : Dear Sir,
: : I am doing working in Pak Suzuki motor compant in welding shop
: I want to know about welding condition datk
: How I can set a good data a better caondition and also tell me about seting mathod with chart and formulas
: Thank you
: Muhammad Fazilt
------------ End Original Message ------------
With ultrasonic Evaluation you need a compairson to fine tune the system to achieve better than 80% complance with "good" "small" and "no good" welds. This can be performed by down loading the Cal Blocks.PPT at my website listed in this note.

You have to decide if you are going to compare UE to Destructive Testing or Pry Testing. IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.
Pry testing typicially can not idenitify the undersized nugget therefore, the undersized nugget becomes a "good" condition unless extreem.
Destructive testing if the weld is being measured with a vernier caliper, or if it is being eyeballed. Will change your standards, and results on the DT. But, When doing DT you will consider as the OEM does. Is the undersized or small weld "good"? Setting 1.

Is a certian percentage good?Setting 2

Is the undersized or small weld "no good". Setting 3

each differing condition calls for a different calibration, and setting values on the ultrasonic machine, and processing your data.

This can be achieved on the machines listed on my website. To give you a complete answer sir I can not. I must see the situation and evaluate your criteria, and your machine settings.I am available at 11:00am EST until 21:00pm EST @ 248 682 5763 my home office




    
 
 
Dave Stewart
Dave Stewart
02:27 Nov-15-2003
Re: can we use ultrasonic test for testing the spot welds ?
Hello Krishna,

If you contact a fellow by the name of Simon Labbe of RD Tech in Canada (simon.labbe@rd-tech.com) I am sure he can help you out. I believe a few years ago when the initial production of the Ford Focus was starting there were problems with the spot welding. RD Tech developed a technique to inspect these spot welds but Simon would be able to give you better information on this. Hope the contact helps you, take care.

Dave Stewart





    
 
 

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