where expertise comes together - since 1996 -

The Largest Open Access Portal of Nondestructive Testing (NDT)

Conference Proceedings, Articles, News, Exhibition, Forum, Network and more

where expertise comes together
- since 1996 -
574 views
Technical Discussions
Ed Ginzel
R & D, -
Materials Research Institute, Canada, Joined Nov 1998, 1268

Ed Ginzel

R & D, -
Materials Research Institute,
Canada,
Joined Nov 1998
1268
02:42 Sep-24-2003
AUT on Girth welds, accuracy, precision and tolerance

Paul and Gerry have revived my interest in the old topic of quantifying our accuracy of sizing of flaws in AUT on girth weld inspection projects.

As Paul pointed out, the ability of any system to reproduce amplitude reponses on notches, or flaws that have all the characteristics of notches, should be fairly predictable. But real flaws, as Gerry points out, are rarely so ideal and therefore their amplitude responses will not be so predictable.

The reality of flaws being "unpredictable" means variations can occur. Both in amplitude and even temporal aspects as we try to discriminate tip signals and need to use operator "judgement" when the signal and phase separations are small.

The zone methods we have used on REAL flaws in pipeline girth weld AUT have provided some degree of accuracy and it is constantly being "debated". Perhaps the methods of assessment of this accuracy should ALSO be debated.

In DNV OS-F101 Random and Systematic (mean and standard?)deviations are to be determined. The details of how these values are used are not described in the Qualification document...just that they must be determined.
Charlesworth and Temple describe TOFD sizing errors and usually refer to the standard deviation.
API 1104 19th edition requires that the sizing error be determined but it makes no description of how this is to be done.

It is interesting that a similar requirement has been imposed in the Nuclear industry. ASME Section XI in Appendix VIII sets out Performance Demonstration Requirements. In VIII-3120 Sizing requirements are imposed using a comprison of flaw sizes to UT estimated sizes. Here ASME requires an RMS value be determined.
For ferritic pipe welds ASME requires:
(a) The RMS error of the flaw lengths estimated by
ultrasonics, as compared with the true lengths, shall
not exceed 0.75 in. (19 mm);
(b) The RMS error of the flaw depths estimated by
ultrasonics, as compared with the true depths, shall not
exceed 0.125 in. (3.2 mm).

The ASME treatment seems well addressed to the engineering applications of NDT results where Fitness-for-Service can be calculated with the normal "safety allowances" made by fracture mechanic engineers provided the NDT can assure a minimum accuracy tolerance.

But pipeline application of NDT results seem to be different. Instead of requiring a minimum accuracy tolerance to meet the pre-estimated tolerance minimums assumed by engineering safety factors, the sizing errors we have been deriving are added to the flaw size estimates. If no other safety factor has been incorporated this is of course needed.

But in several projects I have seen ECA based acceptance criteria that is more restrictive than radiographic workmanship criteria. No one has bothered to explain how, with estimates of flaw height within nearly a millimetre accuracy, the acceptable length could be less than what would be allowed by a radiographic inspection where NO height estimate is available and radiography has been shown to be less effective at even detecting the planar flaws in the welds so it may have even missed the small flaw that UT detected and was required to reject.

So, anyone with thoughts or comments on:
1. What is the most informative statistic in flaw sizing estimates?
2. How is it best determined?
3. How is it to be used in acceptance criteria?
4. Should a minimum error be required proven because other safety factors are already calculated?
5. Should the error be simply added to all the other safety factors?

Input from the engineering community, both those that impose the requirements for NDT accuracy tolerances and those that have had a contribution to how the tolerances are used in determining acceptance criteria for ECAs would be much appreciated.

Thanks
Ed


    
 
 Reply 
 
paul rawlinson
paul rawlinson
03:04 Sep-26-2003
Re: AUT on Girth welds, accuracy, precision and tolerance
I agree with your comments.
There is no satisfactory method of flaw sizing in AUT because defect positions and orientation are not fully predictable.

As shown on the Genesis simulator large defects in unpredicted orientations can give a poor response.

I believe that the couplant level monitor setting is the most critical factor in ACC/Rej criteria
Whereas the majority of ACC/Rej criteria follow under the heading of amplitude base the couplant can be up to 50% (6DB) before it is flagged as a loss.
Until a company develops a system which automaticaly compensates amplitude levels to couplant loss we should be working at FBH+6DB (as the ACC/Rej level)


--
This message was posted into the NDT.net Forum.
http://www.ndt.net/wshop/forum/forum-1.htm
Please do not reply to email: forum@ndt.net
For your reply to this message go to:
http://www.ndt.net/wshop/forum/messages-1/5924.html


----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Paul and Gerry have revived my interest in the old topic of quantifying our accuracy of sizing of flaws in AUT on girth weld inspection projects.
: As Paul pointed out, the ability of any system to reproduce amplitude reponses on notches, or flaws that have all the characteristics of notches, should be fairly predictable. But real flaws, as Gerry points out, are rarely so ideal and therefore their amplitude responses will not be so predictable.
: The reality of flaws being "unpredictable" means variations can occur. Both in amplitude and even temporal aspects as we try to discriminate tip signals and need to use operator "judgement" when the signal and phase separations are small.
: The zone methods we have used on REAL flaws in pipeline girth weld AUT have provided some degree of accuracy and it is constantly being "debated". Perhaps the methods of assessment of this accuracy should ALSO be debated.
: In DNV OS-F101 Random and Systematic (mean and standard?)deviations are to be determined. The details of how these values are used are not described in the Qualification document...just that they must be determined.
: Charlesworth and Temple describe TOFD sizing errors and usually refer to the standard deviation.
: API 1104 19th edition requires that the sizing error be determined but it makes no description of how this is to be done.
: It is interesting that a similar requirement has been imposed in the Nuclear industry. ASME Section XI in Appendix VIII sets out Performance Demonstration Requirements. In VIII-3120 Sizing requirements are imposed using a comprison of flaw sizes to UT estimated sizes. Here ASME requires an RMS value be determined.
: For ferritic pipe welds ASME requires:
: (a) The RMS error of the flaw lengths estimated by
: ultrasonics, as compared with the true lengths, shall
: not exceed 0.75 in. (19 mm);
: (b) The RMS error of the flaw depths estimated by
: ultrasonics, as compared with the true depths, shall not
: exceed 0.125 in. (3.2 mm).
: The ASME treatment seems well addressed to the engineering applications of NDT results where Fitness-for-Service can be calculated with the normal "safety allowances" made by fracture mechanic engineers provided the NDT can assure a minimum accuracy tolerance.
: But pipeline application of NDT results seem to be different. Instead of requiring a minimum accuracy tolerance to meet the pre-estimated tolerance minimums assumed by engineering safety factors, the sizing errors we have been deriving are added to the flaw size estimates. If no other safety factor has been incorporated this is of course needed.
: But in several projects I have seen ECA based acceptance criteria that is more restrictive than radiographic workmanship criteria. No one has bothered to explain how, with estimates of flaw height within nearly a millimetre accuracy, the acceptable length could be less than what would be allowed by a radiographic inspection where NO height estimate is available and radiography has been shown to be less effective at even detecting the planar flaws in the welds so it may have even missed the small flaw that UT detected and was required to reject.
: So, anyone with thoughts or comments on:
: 1. What is the most informative statistic in flaw sizing estimates?
: 2. How is it best determined?
: 3. How is it to be used in acceptance criteria?
: 4. Should a minimum error be required proven because other safety factors are already calculated?
: 5. Should the error be simply added to all the other safety factors?
: Input from the engineering community, both those that impose the requirements for NDT accuracy tolerances and those that have had a contribution to how the tolerances are used in determining acceptance criteria for ECAs would be much appreciated.
: Thanks
: Ed
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 Reply 
 

Product Spotlight

AIS229 - Multipurpose Real Time System

Latest standard & automatic real time system developed by Balteau. The AIS229 has been designed to
...
do series inspection in a wide variety of industry. Composed of a shielded cabinet, 5 axis manipulator, x-ray generator and tubehead from 160kV to 225kV, a fl at panel & much more, the AIS229 is most certainly one of the most multipurpose RTR system available on the market.
>

NEW Wheel Type Phased Array Probe

DOPPLER NEW Wheel Type Phased Array Probe, more stable, new tyre makes lesser acoustic attenuation
...
, much lighter makes easier to handle, more slim size, magnetic and mechanical encoder optional etc...more
>

NEOS III

NEOS III is Logos Imagings lightest DR system. With a built-in battery and internal wireless commu
...
nication, the NEOS III is perfect for users that want to quickly assess an item.
>

TESTD-PT SYSTEM

Pulse thermography is a non-contact test method that is ideal for the characterization of thin fil
...
ms and coatings or the detection of defects. With a remarquable short test time and a high detection sensitivity, the Telops TESTD-PT is the perfect tool for non- destructive testing. With such high frame rates, it is even possible to investigate highly conductive or diffusive materials.
>

Share...
We use technical and analytics cookies to ensure that we will give you the best experience of our website - More Info
Accept
top
this is debug window