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- since 1996 -

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Technical Discussions
A.M. BENAMER
Director
sirte oil company, Libya, Joined Nov 2008, 3

A.M. BENAMER

Director
sirte oil company,
Libya,
Joined Nov 2008
3
05:47 Jun-19-2004
THIRD PARTY INSPECTION


I HAVE A LITTLE OF CONFLICT WITH THE OBLIGATION OF THE THIRD PARTY INSPECTOR WHO NORMALLY ASSIGNED TO FOLLOW UP DURING THE FABRICATION OF NEW EQUIPMENTS, DOES HE ENTITLE TO SEND THE INSPECTION REPORTS TO THE END USER FOR APPROVAL SUCH AS HEAT TREATMENT CHART, HPT RESULTS. OR HE SHOULD APPROVE FROM HIS SIDE ONLY, WHAT DOES THE GENERAL PRACTICE CALLS FOR?


    
 
 
jawed akhter
jawed akhter
00:35 Jun-24-2004
Re: THIRD PARTY INSPECTION

All above your requirements shall be detatiled in contract.It is a general practice to hire third party inspection.----------- Start Original Message -----------
:
: I HAVE A LITTLE OF CONFLICT WITH THE OBLIGATION OF THE THIRD PARTY INSPECTOR WHO NORMALLY ASSIGNED TO FOLLOW UP DURING THE FABRICATION OF NEW EQUIPMENTS, DOES HE ENTITLE TO SEND THE INSPECTION REPORTS TO THE END USER FOR APPROVAL SUCH AS HEAT TREATMENT CHART, HPT RESULTS. OR HE SHOULD APPROVE FROM HIS SIDE ONLY, WHAT DOES THE GENERAL PRACTICE CALLS FOR?
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 
ET
ET
09:44 Jun-26-2004
Re: THIRD PARTY INSPECTION
Of course he can. He is the independent 3rd party inspector representing the end user. He has the right to contact his client on any issue he wishes. If he wants the end user to approve items, that is his prerogative. Normal practice is that he is qualifed to approve what he is inspecting. That is the whole idea of having a 3rd party inspector, but if he wishes to have the end user involved, then he can.
----------- Start Original Message -----------
:
: All above your requirements shall be detatiled in contract.It is a general practice to hire third party inspection.----------- Start Original Message -----------
: :
: : I HAVE A LITTLE OF CONFLICT WITH THE OBLIGATION OF THE THIRD PARTY INSPECTOR WHO NORMALLY ASSIGNED TO FOLLOW UP DURING THE FABRICATION OF NEW EQUIPMENTS, DOES HE ENTITLE TO SEND THE INSPECTION REPORTS TO THE END USER FOR APPROVAL SUCH AS HEAT TREATMENT CHART, HPT RESULTS. OR HE SHOULD APPROVE FROM HIS SIDE ONLY, WHAT DOES THE GENERAL PRACTICE CALLS FOR?
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 
Juan Amado
Engineering, Inspection
Arco Industrial, S.A., Panama, Joined Nov 2001, 44

Juan Amado

Engineering, Inspection
Arco Industrial, S.A.,
Panama,
Joined Nov 2001
44
05:30 Jun-27-2004
Re: THIRD PARTY INSPECTION
The third party inspector should be technically capable of excercising accept/reject criteria. He can consult with or present his findings to his client, but he should not HAVE to go to the client in order to make his decision. A third party inspector who doesn´t make any decisions but just takes the all the information to the client and let the client make all the decisions regarding acceptance of final product is more of a messenger than an inspector. One more consideration is that the role of the third party inspector should be clearly outlined in the contract documents.

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Of course he can. He is the independent 3rd party inspector representing the end user. He has the right to contact his client on any issue he wishes. If he wants the end user to approve items, that is his prerogative. Normal practice is that he is qualifed to approve what he is inspecting. That is the whole idea of having a 3rd party inspector, but if he wishes to have the end user involved, then he can.
: :
: : All above your requirements shall be detatiled in contract.It is a general practice to hire third party inspection.----------- Start Original Message -----------
: : :
: : : I HAVE A LITTLE OF CONFLICT WITH THE OBLIGATION OF THE THIRD PARTY INSPECTOR WHO NORMALLY ASSIGNED TO FOLLOW UP DURING THE FABRICATION OF NEW EQUIPMENTS, DOES HE ENTITLE TO SEND THE INSPECTION REPORTS TO THE END USER FOR APPROVAL SUCH AS HEAT TREATMENT CHART, HPT RESULTS. OR HE SHOULD APPROVE FROM HIS SIDE ONLY, WHAT DOES THE GENERAL PRACTICE CALLS FOR?
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 
ET
ET
09:50 Jun-28-2004
Re: THIRD PARTY INSPECTION
I agree. He should be techniaclly capable of of excercising accept/reject criteria. However, that is not always the case.
Be even with that said, he is the owner's rep and as the owner's rep has the right to conduct his business anyway he sees fit. Im sure the contract documents will state the owner has the right to do just about anything he wishes as long as he does not make the contractor do any out of scope work without paying for it.
----------- Start Original Message -----------
: The third party inspector should be technically capable of excercising accept/reject criteria. He can consult with or present his findings to his client, but he should not HAVE to go to the client in order to make his decision. A third party inspector who doesn´t make any decisions but just takes the all the information to the client and let the client make all the decisions regarding acceptance of final product is more of a messenger than an inspector. One more consideration is that the role of the third party inspector should be clearly outlined in the contract documents.
: : Of course he can. He is the independent 3rd party inspector representing the end user. He has the right to contact his client on any issue he wishes. If he wants the end user to approve items, that is his prerogative. Normal practice is that he is qualifed to approve what he is inspecting. That is the whole idea of having a 3rd party inspector, but if he wishes to have the end user involved, then he can.
: : :
: : : All above your requirements shall be detatiled in contract.It is a general practice to hire third party inspection.----------- Start Original Message -----------
: : : :
: : : : I HAVE A LITTLE OF CONFLICT WITH THE OBLIGATION OF THE THIRD PARTY INSPECTOR WHO NORMALLY ASSIGNED TO FOLLOW UP DURING THE FABRICATION OF NEW EQUIPMENTS, DOES HE ENTITLE TO SEND THE INSPECTION REPORTS TO THE END USER FOR APPROVAL SUCH AS HEAT TREATMENT CHART, HPT RESULTS. OR HE SHOULD APPROVE FROM HIS SIDE ONLY, WHAT DOES THE GENERAL PRACTICE CALLS FOR?
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 
Joel Light
Consultant, Corrosion Prevention
Deepwater Corrosion Services Inc., USA, Joined Jul 2002, 12

Joel Light

Consultant, Corrosion Prevention
Deepwater Corrosion Services Inc.,
USA,
Joined Jul 2002
12
06:04 Jun-28-2004
Re: THIRD PARTY INSPECTION
This is a tricky subject that will receive many responses depending on whether you are the client, the inspector or the manufacturer being inspected.
Here is my list of SHOULDS to consider:
1) As previously stated, the roles of the third party inspector SHOULD be defined in the contract.
2) The third party inspector SHOULD be able to accept / reject based on his own knowledge and authority.
3) The third party inspector SHOULD be able to communicate with the end user in any way he sees fit prior to make any final decisions.
4) The third party inspector is a representative of the end user and SHOULD be given adequate opportunity to clearly understand what the end user is looking for.
5) The end user SHOULD have access to all records prior to makeing any final decisions.
6) The end user SHOULD hire a third party inspector that is experienced and reliable enough to make decisions without consulting the end user.

Ultimately, the third party inspector SHOULD insure that the end user receives exactly what he is paying for without hindering the manufacturing process or the overall progress of the project.
However, this is not always the case.

Your best bet is to consult the contract. If nothing is in the contract, then "take exception" next time to prevent this hassel.


----------- Start Original Message -----------
: The third party inspector should be technically capable of excercising accept/reject criteria. He can consult with or present his findings to his client, but he should not HAVE to go to the client in order to make his decision. A third party inspector who doesn´t make any decisions but just takes the all the information to the client and let the client make all the decisions regarding acceptance of final product is more of a messenger than an inspector. One more consideration is that the role of the third party inspector should be clearly outlined in the contract documents.
: : Of course he can. He is the independent 3rd party inspector representing the end user. He has the right to contact his client on any issue he wishes. If he wants the end user to approve items, that is his prerogative. Normal practice is that he is qualifed to approve what he is inspecting. That is the whole idea of having a 3rd party inspector, but if he wishes to have the end user involved, then he can.
: : :
: : : All above your requirements shall be detatiled in contract.It is a general practice to hire third party inspection.----------- Start Original Message -----------
: : : :
: : : : I HAVE A LITTLE OF CONFLICT WITH THE OBLIGATION OF THE THIRD PARTY INSPECTOR WHO NORMALLY ASSIGNED TO FOLLOW UP DURING THE FABRICATION OF NEW EQUIPMENTS, DOES HE ENTITLE TO SEND THE INSPECTION REPORTS TO THE END USER FOR APPROVAL SUCH AS HEAT TREATMENT CHART, HPT RESULTS. OR HE SHOULD APPROVE FROM HIS SIDE ONLY, WHAT DOES THE GENERAL PRACTICE CALLS FOR?
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 
ET
ET
08:08 Jun-28-2004
Re: THIRD PARTY INSPECTION
Very well put. I couldn't have said it better myself, however, I still say the 3rd party inspector has the right to consult with the end user if he fells the need to do so.
----------- Start Original Message -----------
: This is a tricky subject that will receive many responses depending on whether you are the client, the inspector or the manufacturer being inspected.
: Here is my list of SHOULDS to consider:
: 1) As previously stated, the roles of the third party inspector SHOULD be defined in the contract.
: 2) The third party inspector SHOULD be able to accept / reject based on his own knowledge and authority.
: 3) The third party inspector SHOULD be able to communicate with the end user in any way he sees fit prior to make any final decisions.
: 4) The third party inspector is a representative of the end user and SHOULD be given adequate opportunity to clearly understand what the end user is looking for.
: 5) The end user SHOULD have access to all records prior to makeing any final decisions.
: 6) The end user SHOULD hire a third party inspector that is experienced and reliable enough to make decisions without consulting the end user.
: Ultimately, the third party inspector SHOULD insure that the end user receives exactly what he is paying for without hindering the manufacturing process or the overall progress of the project.
: However, this is not always the case.
: Your best bet is to consult the contract. If nothing is in the contract, then "take exception" next time to prevent this hassel.
:
: : The third party inspector should be technically capable of excercising accept/reject criteria. He can consult with or present his findings to his client, but he should not HAVE to go to the client in order to make his decision. A third party inspector who doesn´t make any decisions but just takes the all the information to the client and let the client make all the decisions regarding acceptance of final product is more of a messenger than an inspector. One more consideration is that the role of the third party inspector should be clearly outlined in the contract documents.
: : : Of course he can. He is the independent 3rd party inspector representing the end user. He has the right to contact his client on any issue he wishes. If he wants the end user to approve items, that is his prerogative. Normal practice is that he is qualifed to approve what he is inspecting. That is the whole idea of having a 3rd party inspector, but if he wishes to have the end user involved, then he can.
: : : :
: : : : All above your requirements shall be detatiled in contract.It is a general practice to hire third party inspection.----------- Start Original Message -----------
: : : : :
: : : : : I HAVE A LITTLE OF CONFLICT WITH THE OBLIGATION OF THE THIRD PARTY INSPECTOR WHO NORMALLY ASSIGNED TO FOLLOW UP DURING THE FABRICATION OF NEW EQUIPMENTS, DOES HE ENTITLE TO SEND THE INSPECTION REPORTS TO THE END USER FOR APPROVAL SUCH AS HEAT TREATMENT CHART, HPT RESULTS. OR HE SHOULD APPROVE FROM HIS SIDE ONLY, WHAT DOES THE GENERAL PRACTICE CALLS FOR?
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 
JDM
JDM
04:36 Jun-29-2004
Re: THIRD PARTY INSPECTION
Very interesting responses.
Having worked for a major manufacturer in the Quality Assurance area for 35 + years I am very familiar with 3rd party inspectors.

They basically fall into 2 categories:
1) Those hired by customer or end user and representing the customer or end user and
2)those (sometimes paid by the manufacturer) representing regulatory bodies.

Category 1 types come in all forms. Some have very little knowledge of the parts, process, or even what they are supposed to do. Some customers do not really know what they should be inspecting (or how) and give these loose cannons free reign to do their own thing.
One example comes to mind. One of these guys was looking at some RT film and he decided that the penetrameter holes were not as visible as they should be. So he took his pencil and darkened them in on the film "so we could all see them better". We just smiled at him and said "thanks".

Other 3rd party inspectors are so knowledgeable and arrogant that they think they can run your company for you. This kind often causes big problems. They get in your pants and do nothing but disrupt production. They need to be put in their place as soon as this behaviour is evident.

The information gathered by 3rd party inspectors needs to be protected from disclosure to your competition. This makes it very important for your Project Manager people to have a specific contract with your customer regarding what information the 3rd party inspector can have access to and what he can have copies of. A confidentiality agreement is also required.

For the second type of 3rd party inspectors. (those representing regulators) you have very little control over. The best thing is to develope a good working relationship with them. Get to know the names of their bosses, and do not hesitate to challenge their decisions if you feel strongly about them. Make sure you and they always act in an ethical manner.

Good Luck

----------- Start Original Message -----------
:
: I HAVE A LITTLE OF CONFLICT WITH THE OBLIGATION OF THE THIRD PARTY INSPECTOR WHO NORMALLY ASSIGNED TO FOLLOW UP DURING THE FABRICATION OF NEW EQUIPMENTS, DOES HE ENTITLE TO SEND THE INSPECTION REPORTS TO THE END USER FOR APPROVAL SUCH AS HEAT TREATMENT CHART, HPT RESULTS. OR HE SHOULD APPROVE FROM HIS SIDE ONLY, WHAT DOES THE GENERAL PRACTICE CALLS FOR?
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 
Juan J. Amado
Engineering, Inspection
Arco Industrial, S.A., Panama, Joined Nov 2001, 44

Juan J. Amado

Engineering, Inspection
Arco Industrial, S.A.,
Panama,
Joined Nov 2001
44
06:09 Jun-29-2004
Re: THIRD PARTY INSPECTION
Although it wasn't me the one who posted the original topic, I feel the time is appropriate to add the following comment.
It´s a privilege to be among such knowledgeable and cooperating peers. This forum is more helpful as the level of healthy discussion increases. Keep up the good work, and thanks for the exchanges.

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Very interesting responses.
: Having worked for a major manufacturer in the Quality Assurance area for 35 + years I am very familiar with 3rd party inspectors.
: They basically fall into 2 categories:
: 1) Those hired by customer or end user and representing the customer or end user and
: 2)those (sometimes paid by the manufacturer) representing regulatory bodies.
: Category 1 types come in all forms. Some have very little knowledge of the parts, process, or even what they are supposed to do. Some customers do not really know what they should be inspecting (or how) and give these loose cannons free reign to do their own thing.
: One example comes to mind. One of these guys was looking at some RT film and he decided that the penetrameter holes were not as visible as they should be. So he took his pencil and darkened them in on the film "so we could all see them better". We just smiled at him and said "thanks".
: Other 3rd party inspectors are so knowledgeable and arrogant that they think they can run your company for you. This kind often causes big problems. They get in your pants and do nothing but disrupt production. They need to be put in their place as soon as this behaviour is evident.
: The information gathered by 3rd party inspectors needs to be protected from disclosure to your competition. This makes it very important for your Project Manager people to have a specific contract with your customer regarding what information the 3rd party inspector can have access to and what he can have copies of. A confidentiality agreement is also required.
: For the second type of 3rd party inspectors. (those representing regulators) you have very little control over. The best thing is to develope a good working relationship with them. Get to know the names of their bosses, and do not hesitate to challenge their decisions if you feel strongly about them. Make sure you and they always act in an ethical manner.
: Good Luck
: :
: : I HAVE A LITTLE OF CONFLICT WITH THE OBLIGATION OF THE THIRD PARTY INSPECTOR WHO NORMALLY ASSIGNED TO FOLLOW UP DURING THE FABRICATION OF NEW EQUIPMENTS, DOES HE ENTITLE TO SEND THE INSPECTION REPORTS TO THE END USER FOR APPROVAL SUCH AS HEAT TREATMENT CHART, HPT RESULTS. OR HE SHOULD APPROVE FROM HIS SIDE ONLY, WHAT DOES THE GENERAL PRACTICE CALLS FOR?
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 
jerry B.
jerry B.
06:04 Mar-17-2005
Re: THIRD PARTY INSPECTION
Hello:
Need some info on 3rd party inspection companies for general mechanical products

Please contact me - jbbouck@yahoo.com


    
 
 
S.V.Swamy
Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex , India, Joined Feb 2001, 787

S.V.Swamy

Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex ,
India,
Joined Feb 2001
787
06:55 Mar-18-2005
Re: THIRD PARTY INSPECTION
----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Hello:
: Need some info on 3rd party inspection companies for general mechanical products
: Please contact me - jbbouck@yahoo.com
------------ End Original Message ------------

Dear Jerry,

Pl. feel free to write to me. I can probably help you.

S.V.Swamy
ASNT Level III (RT&UT)





    
 
 
Mike Tin
Mike Tin
04:37 Aug-19-2005
Re: THIRD PARTY INSPECTION
----------- Start Original Message -----------
: : Hello:
: : Need some info on 3rd party inspection companies for general mechanical products
: : Please contact me - jbbouck@yahoo.com
: Dear Jerry,
: Pl. feel free to write to me. I can probably help you.
: S.V.Swamy
: ASNT Level III (RT&UT)
------------ End Original Message ------------

Hello Swamy
Please visit the website http://www.daintily-qc.com when you fell free, you may find the interest.

Best regards,

Mike TIN
Daintily Quality Consulting Co., Ltd.




    
 
 
Rajshekhar
Rajshekhar
15:05 Jan-21-2009
Re: THIRD PARTY INSPECTION
In Reply to A.M. BENAMER at 05:47 Jun-19-2004 (Opening).

In house inspectors are witnessing the the work in process jobs, where as third party inspectors are witnessing and certifying the jobs during or after the job done, this quite general practice as i believe.

    
 
 
S.V.Swamy
Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex , India, Joined Feb 2001, 787

S.V.Swamy

Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex ,
India,
Joined Feb 2001
787
04:09 Jan-23-2009
Re: THIRD PARTY INSPECTION
In Reply to Rajshekhar at 15:05 Jan-21-2009 .

Dear Rajasekhar,

That is not always so. Third Party Inspectors can also be fully involved with stage inspection. They can inspect a sample after the lot is inspected by the in-house team or they can witness concurrently while the lot is being inspected.

Third Party Inspectors are basically representing the end users, the customers and the regulatory bodies. Pl. go through the whole thread (earlier discussions) for a good overview of the role of Third Party Inspectors.

Best wishes.

Swamy
NDT and Quality Management Guru

    
 
 

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