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02:16 Mar-24-1999

Rolf Diederichs

Director, Editor, Publisher, Internet, PHP MySQL
NDT.net,
Germany,
Joined Nov 1998
598
Determining Bond strength on 1" thick rubber covered rolls

I would like to shear with you an interesting topic which was posted
to the NDT Newsgroup. You can use your Newsgroup reader or see also http://www.ndt.net/newsweb/newsweb.htm for more details.
Somehow this message is a bridge between two Internet Disussion Forums,
both worse to visit - sometimes! And of course with no competition in mind.
Some of you, who watch both forums, may know this topic already.
Attached find the current status of discussion with its 3 messages.

--------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:43:56 -0500
M.C.  Macke wrote:
Subject: Determining Bond strength on 1" thick rubber covered rolls


Is there a reliable NDE method that can Quantitate the attachment of 1"
thick rubber attached to steel rolls?
Regards,

M.C.  Macke
Inspection Design/
Research & Development
GE Inspection Services, Inc.

--------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:23:45 +0100
"Rolf Diederichs (NDTnet)" wrote:
Subject: Re: Determining Bond strength on 1" thick rubber covered rolls

Mike

With ultrasonic it should be possible to measure the quality of the bonding.
The interface echo rubber/steel with its amplitude or phase shift gives a result
on the bonding condition. You may find more literature by searching "www.ndt.net".

Rolf

--------------------------------------
Date:   Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:12:12 -0700
David Hermanutz wrote:
Subject: Re: Determining Bond strength on 1" thick rubber covered rolls

Mike,

To my knowledge the strenght of bond can only be tested by destructive means but the
bond quality can be tested with using an unrectified wave form on most flaw detector
ultrasound sets (equipped with an unrectified channel). When sound transfers between
two dissimilar mediums a phase shift will be noticed in the wave form along with an
amplification of this signal and loss of the opposite back wall signal when poor
bonding occurs. This test would be very similar to the popular babbit bond check that
is done on most turbine units.


Try the search engine using     babbit bond


or look up babbit bond checks in your GE NDT procedure manuals


David Hermanutz
Canspec Group, Edmonton, Canada

--------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:37:32 +0100
"Rolf Diederichs (NDTnet)" wrote:
Subject: Re: Determining Bond strength on 1" thick rubber covered rolls

I just found a research topic on NDTnet which may be related to determining Bond strength.
The complete text see at http://www.ndt.net/news/fhg_kl_e.htm.
There is also a German article "Bestimmung der Haftung von Materialverbund mittels Ultraschall " by Autoren S. Faßbender und W. Arnold, see http://www.ndt.net//article/fassb/fassb.htm.


As Dr. Silvia Fassbender, a specialist in this field, explains: The principle has been clearly defined - the transmitter emits ultrasonic sinus wave forms and we evaluate the echo returned. An undistorted sinus wave is returned when the adhesive bond is firm. However, this only appears when the so-called restoring forces are linear, signifying that stability against the effect of outside forces has been maintained. In other words, if the reflected sinus wave is distorted, the restoring forces have deviated from linear uniformity. thus proving poor adhesion and inferior firmness in the bond. The greater the distortion, the poorer the
bond. According to Silvia Fassbender, Results can be differentiated still further. The ultrasonic technique even allows us to identify the type of fault. whether it was caused by trapped air, moisture of foreign particles. This constitutes a quantum leap in adhesive bonding.


The Fraunhofer researchers are continuing their tests on different adhesive bonds to create a broad range of applications for their testing technique.
--------------------------- END of orginal Message


Isn't in common that many methods working relatively?Especially in NDT for material
characterization it is well known that material properties can be quantified only by
correlation measurement during the development stage, in which also destructive methods are used. After proven its reliability it may be possible to quantify, e.g. the strength of bonding.

I would be happy to receive more opinions on this topic.

Rolf


 
05:02 Mar-25-1999

David Hermanutz

Consultant,
Hbndt.com,
China,
Joined Jul 2012
85
Re: Determining Bond strength on 1" thick rubber covered rolls I've had the opportunity today to do a provide a quick field example.
I have saved several screens from my Epoch 3 (.BMP) from a carbon steel conveyor wheel with an inch and a half rubber coating.
I'm currently in the field (actually an open pit mine) and unable to access my notes although the different sine wave behaviours are quite evident when
doing a pulse echo test from either the steel or rubber side of the bond surface.
With Mr Diederichs, I also believe that a destructive / Non destructive study with the particular materials you have in mind
could give you a good basis for bond strenghts vs. percentage of disbond.

If anyone would be interested in the bitmaps of my setup and screens I would be happy to forward them to you. I should also have time tomorrow
to look for a disbonded area as well and should have a good collection of screens by the weekend.

David Hermanutz
Canspec Group, Edmonton

: I would like to shear with you an interesting topic which was posted
: to the NDT Newsgroup. You can use your Newsgroup reader or see also http://www.ndt.net/newsweb/newsweb.htm for more details.
: Somehow this message is a bridge between two Internet Disussion Forums,
: both worse to visit - sometimes! And of course with no competition in mind.
: Some of you, who watch both forums, may know this topic already.
: Attached find the current status of discussion with its 3 messages.

: --------------------------------------
: Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:43:56 -0500
: M.C.  Macke wrote:
: Subject: Determining Bond strength on 1" thick rubber covered rolls

:
: Is there a reliable NDE method that can Quantitate the attachment of 1"
: thick rubber attached to steel rolls?
: Regards,

: M.C.  Macke
: Inspection Design/
: Research & Development
: GE Inspection Services, Inc.

: --------------------------------------
: Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:23:45 +0100
: "Rolf Diederichs (NDTnet)" wrote:
: Subject: Re:Determining Bond strength on 1" thick rubber covered rolls

: Mike

: With ultrasonic it should be possible to measure the quality of the bonding.
: The interface echo rubber/steel with its amplitude or phase shift gives a result
: on the bonding condition. You may find more literature by searching "www.ndt.net".

: Rolf

: --------------------------------------
: Date:   Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:12:12 -0700
: David Hermanutz wrote:
: Subject: Re: Determining Bond strength on 1" thick rubber covered rolls

: Mike,

: To my knowledge the strenght of bond can only be tested by destructive means but the
: bond quality can be tested with using an unrectified wave form on most flaw detector
: ultrasound sets (equipped with an unrectified channel). When sound transfers between
: two dissimilar mediums a phase shift will be noticed in the wave form along with an
: amplification of this signal and loss of the opposite back wall signal when poor
: bonding occurs. This test would be very similar to the popular babbit bond check that
: is done on most turbine units.

:
: Try the search engine using     babbit bond

:
: or look up babbit bond checks in your GE NDT procedure manuals

:
: David Hermanutz
: Canspec Group, Edmonton, Canada

: --------------------------------------
: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:37:32 +0100
: "Rolf Diederichs (NDTnet)" wrote:
: Subject: Re: Determining Bond strength on 1" thick rubber covered rolls

: I just found a research topic on NDTnet which may be related to determining Bond strength.
: The complete text see at http://www.ndt.net/news/fhg_kl_e.htm.
: There is also a German article "Bestimmung der Haftung von Materialverbund mittels Ultraschall " by Autoren S. Faßbender und W. Arnold, see http://www.ndt.net//article/fassb/fassb.htm.

:
: As Dr. Silvia Fassbender, a specialist in this field, explains: The principle has been clearly defined - the transmitter emits ultrasonic sinus wave forms and we evaluate the echo returned. An undistorted sinus wave is returned when the adhesive bond is firm. However, this only appears when the so-called restoring forces are linear, signifying that stability against the effect of outside forces has been maintained. In other words, if the reflected sinus wave is distorted, the restoring forces have deviated from linear uniformity. thus proving poor adhesion and inferior firmness in the bond. The greater the distortion, the poorer the
: bond. According to Silvia Fassbender, Results can be differentiated still further. The ultrasonic technique even allows us to identify the type of fault. whether it was caused by trapped air, moisture of foreign particles. This constitutes a quantum leap in adhesive bonding.

:
: The Fraunhofer researchers are continuing their tests on different adhesive bonds to create a broad range of applications for their testing technique.
: --------------------------- END of orginal Message

:
: Isn't in commonthat many methods working relatively? Especially in NDT for material
: characterization it is well known that material properties can be quantified only by
: correlation measurement during the development stage, in which also destructive methods are used. After proven its reliability it may be possible to quantify, e.g. the strength of bonding.

: I would be happy to receive more opinions on this topic.

: Rolf




 
09:57 Mar-31-1999
Janelle Chambers
Re: Determining Bond strength on 1" thick rubber covered rolls Southern Research Institute has a unique approach to ultrasonic spectroscopy
(UltraSpec). UltraSpec has had some success in determining varying levels of
bond, but has yet to correlate to BOND STRENGTH. The analysis is done strictly
in the frequency domain rather than the time domain. On a rubber to steel bond,
UltraSpec will show resonance patterns for the steel and possibly the rubber.
The resonance "sharpness" (sharpness of the peaks in the spectrum) is defined by
the impedances at each boundary. Please visit our web site, http://www.uspec.com,
for examples of how the technique is sensitive to very small changes in impedance.
More specifically, http://www.uspec.com/download.htm contains a paper titled,
"Bondline Analysis Using Swept-Frequency Ultrasonic Spectroscopy."
We are in search of good samples that have varying BOND STRENGTHS, so that we can
correlate mechanical tests to UltraSpec data.


: --------------------------------------
: Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:43:56 -0500
: M.C.  Macke wrote:
: Subject: Determining Bond strength on 1" thick rubber covered rolls

:
: Is there a reliable NDE method that can Quantitate the attachment of 1"
: thick rubber attached to steel rolls?
: Regards,

: M.C.  Macke
: Inspection Design/
: Research & Development
: GE Inspection Services, Inc.

: --------------------------------------
: Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:23:45 +0100
: "Rolf Diederichs (NDTnet)" wrote:
: Subject: Re: Determining Bond strength on 1" thick rubber covered rolls

: Mike

: With ultrasonic it should be possible to measure the quality of the bonding.
: The interface echo rubber/steel with its amplitude or phase shift gives a result
: on the bonding condition. You may find more literature by searching "www.ndt.net".

: Rolf

: --------------------------------------
: Date:   Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:12:12 -0700
: David Hermanutz wrote:
: Subject: Re: Determining Bond strength on 1" thick rubber covered rolls

: Mike,

: To my knowledge the strenght of bond can only be tested by destructive means but the
: bond quality can be tested with using an unrectified wave form on most flaw detector
: ultrasound sets (equipped with an unrectified channel). When sound transfers between
: two dissimilar mediums a phase shift will be noticed in the wave form along with an
: amplification of this signal and loss of the opposite back wall signal when poor
: bonding occurs. This test would be very similar to the popular babbit bond check that
: is done on most turbine units.

:
: Try the search engine using     babbit bond

:
: or look up babbit bond checks in your GE NDT procedure manuals

:
: David Hermanutz
: Canspec Group, Edmonton, Canada

: --------------------------------------
: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:37:32 +0100
: "Rolf Diederichs (NDTnet)" wrote:
: Subject: Re: Determining Bond strengthon 1" thick rubber covered rolls

: I just found a research topic on NDTnet which may be related to determining Bond strength.
: The complete text see at http://www.ndt.net/news/fhg_kl_e.htm.
: There is also a German article "Bestimmung der Haftung von Materialverbund mittels Ultraschall " by Autoren S. Faßbender und W. Arnold, see http://www.ndt.net//article/fassb/fassb.htm.

:
: As Dr. Silvia Fassbender, a specialist in this field, explains: The principle has been clearly defined - the transmitter emits ultrasonic sinus wave forms and we evaluate the echo returned. An undistorted sinus wave is returned when the adhesive bond is firm. However, this only appears when the so-called restoring forces are linear, signifying that stability against the effect of outside forces has been maintained. In other words, if the reflected sinus wave is distorted, the restoring forces have deviated from linear uniformity. thus proving poor adhesion and inferior firmness in the bond. The greater the distortion,the poorer the
: bond. According to Silvia Fassbender, Results can be differentiated still further. The ultrasonic technique even allows us to identify the type of fault. whether it was caused by trapped air, moisture of foreign particles. This constitutes a quantum leap in adhesive bonding.

:
: The Fraunhofer researchers are continuing their tests on different adhesive bonds to create a broad range of applications for their testing technique.
: --------------------------- END of orginal Message

:
: Isn't in common that many methods working relatively? Especially in NDT for material
: characterization it is well known that material properties can be quantified only by
: correlation measurement during the development stage, in which also destructive methods are used. After proven its reliability it may be possible to quantify, e.g. the strength of bonding.

: I would be happy to receive more opinions on this topic.

: Rolf




 
01:06 Apr-12-1999

Rolf Diederichs

Director, Editor, Publisher, Internet, PHP MySQL
NDT.net,
Germany,
Joined Nov 1998
598
Re: Determining Bond strength on 1" thick rubber covered rolls chemical and the physical interactions
are inhibited. The adhesives are most likely a multi-component polymeric
blend, it is this area that strength / weakness is found..a commingling
rating by some method is the holly grail!!!!



 
09:23 Apr-23-1999

M.C. Macke (via NDT NewsWeb)

NDT Inspector
GE Inspection Services,
USA,
Joined Aug 2001
8
Re: Determining Bond strength on 1'' thick rubber covered rolls Thanks everyone for your input, but it looks like the holy grail for bond
strength is not to be at this time. We at GE are working at this moment
to develop rubber standards for (a) specific adhesion process with varied
strength values.
Only if we can shake up those interface molecules and measure them, we might
have something!

--
-------------==== Posted via NDT NewsWeb ====-----------------
http://www.ndt.net/newsweb/newsweb.htm Topics, Statistics, Search, Post



 
03:28 May-02-1999

Rolf Diederichs

Director, Editor, Publisher, Internet, PHP MySQL
NDT.net,
Germany,
Joined Nov 1998
598
Re: Determining Bond strength on 1'' thick rubber covered rolls : Thanks everyone for your input, but it looks like the holy grail for bond
: strength is not to be at this time. We at GE are working at this moment
: to develop rubber standards for (a) specific adhesion process with varied
: strength values.
: Only if we can shake up those interface molecules and measure them, we might
: have something!


In this month's issue we have published a news from the CORDIS PUBLICATIONS Database,
which seems to deal with a similar problem that M.C. Macke posted.

http://www.ndt.net/news/1999/cordis05.htm#1
"The bonding of steel with polymer"

Abstract :
Composites involving steel and organic materials, used for example
in sandwich panels on motor vehicles, require non-destructive
testing to ensure than the product is homogeneous and to guarantee
adhesion properties. This project aimed to compare mechanical and
non-mechanical methods of measuring the adhesiveness of polymers to
their steel substrate. The first part of this report covers the
development of non-destructive methods for detecting bonding
defects, using four different techniques: conventional ultrasonics,
acoustic microscopy, infra-red thermography and neutron radiography.
The second part concerns the mechanical tests used, and their
usefulness in measuring adhesion, and the last part compares the
results of the two kinds of tests. The most effective
non-destructive techniques of defect detection proved to be
ultrasonics and neutron radiography, though the latter is not
practicable for industrial use. It was seen that present ways of
interpreting mechanical adhesion tests were inadequate, because
they did not take into account the stiffness of the steel
substrates in the bonded assemblies. Conclusions of the comparison
were that none of the non-destructive techniques used is capable of
evaluating the state of adhesion between the two steel faces, and
therefore they could not be related to the peel and tensile/shear
tests. In certain cases, the non-destructive tests detected defects
which did not modify at all the results of the mechanical tests.

Rolf Diederichs



 
08:46 Aug-23-2001
M.A. Moiz Khan Senior Engineer
Bonding Of Rubber on Bronze :

Dear Friends ,
I have got aproblem . I want to bond Natural Rubber to in inside dia of a Bronze Bush . The present bonding is not of good quality.
Could an bod help me in finding a solution or bonding cement which i must use to get a good result.
Kindly help me quickly .
u can send me mail at
moiz_pk2001@yahoo.com

: Attached find the current status of discussion with its 3 messages.

: --------------------------------------
: Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:43:56 -0500
: M.C.  Macke wrote:
: Subject: Determining Bond strength on 1" thick rubber covered rolls

:
: Is there a reliable NDE method that can Quantitate the attachment of 1"
: thick rubber attached to steel rolls?
: Regards,

: M.C.  Macke
: Inspection Design/
: Research & Development
: GE Inspection Services, Inc.

: --------------------------------------
: Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:23:45 +0100
: "Rolf Diederichs (NDTnet)" wrote:
: Subject: Re: Determining Bond strength on 1" thick rubber covered rolls

: Mike

: With ultrasonic it should be possible to measure the quality of the bonding.
: The interface echo rubber/steel with its amplitude or phase shift gives a result
: on the bonding condition. You may find more literature by searching "www.ndt.net".

: Rolf

: --------------------------------------
: Date:   Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:12:12 -0700
: David Hermanutz wrote:
: Subject: Re: Determining Bond strength on 1" thick rubber covered rolls

: Mike,

: To my knowledge the strenght of bond can only be tested by destructive means but the
: bond quality can be tested with using an unrectified wave form on most flaw detector
: ultrasound sets (equipped with an unrectified channel). When sound transfers between
: two dissimilar mediums a phase shift will be noticed in the wave form along with an
: amplification of this signal and loss of the opposite back wall signal when poor
: bonding occurs. This test would be very similar to the popular babbit bond check that
: is done on most turbine units.

:
: Try the search engine using     babbit bond

:
: or look up babbit bond checks in your GE NDT procedure manuals

:
: David Hermanutz
: Canspec Group, Edmonton, Canada

: --------------------------------------
: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:37:32 +0100
: "Rolf Diederichs (NDTnet)" wrote:
: Subject: Re: Determining Bond strength on 1" thick rubber covered rolls

: I just found a research topic on NDTnet which may be related to determining Bond strength.
: The complete text see at http://www.ndt.net/news/fhg_kl_e.htm.
: There is also a German article "Bestimmung der Haftung von Materialverbund mittels Ultraschall " by Autoren S. Faßbender und W. Arnold, see http://www.ndt.net//article/fassb/fassb.htm.

:
: As Dr. Silvia Fassbender, a specialist in this field, explains: The principle has been clearly defined - the transmitter emits ultrasonic sinus wave forms and we evaluate the echo returned. An undistorted sinus wave is returned when the adhesive bond is firm. However, this only appears when the so-called restoring forces are linear, signifying that stability against the effect of outside forces has been maintained. In other words, if the reflected sinus wave is distorted, the restoring forces have deviated from linear uniformity. thus proving poor adhesion and inferior firmness in the bond. The greater the distortion, the poorer the
: bond. According to Silvia Fassbender, Results can be differentiated still further. The ultrasonic technique even allows us to identify the type of fault. whether it was caused by trapped air, moisture of foreign particles. This constitutes a quantum leap in adhesive bonding.

:
: The Fraunhofer researchers are continuing their tests on different adhesive bonds to create a broad range of applications for their testing technique.
: --------------------------- END of orginal Message

:
: Isn't in common that many methods working relatively? Especially in NDT for material
: characterization it is well known that material properties can be quantified only by
: correlation measurement during the development stage, in which also destructive methods are used. After proven its reliability it may be possible to quantify, e.g. the strength of bonding.

: I would be happy to receive more opinions on this topic.

: Rolf




 
03:27 Oct-12-2002
Niema Mostofie
Re: Determining Bond strength on 1'' thick rubber covered rolls : : Thanks everyone for your input, but it looks like the holy grail for bond
: : strength is not to be at this time. We at GE are working at this moment
: : to develop rubber standards for (a) specific adhesion process with varied
: : strength values.
: : Only if we can shake up those interface molecules and measure them, we might
: : have something!

:
: In this month's issue we have published a news from the CORDIS PUBLICATIONS Database,
: which seems to deal with a similar problem that M.C. Macke posted.

: http://www.ndt.net/news/1999/cordis05.htm#1
: "The bonding of steel with polymer"

: Abstract :
: Composites involving steel and organic materials, used for example
: in sandwich panels on motor vehicles, require non-destructive
: testing to ensure than the product is homogeneous and to guarantee
: adhesion properties. This project aimed to compare mechanical and
: non-mechanical methods of measuring the adhesiveness of polymers to
: their steelsubstrate. The first part of this report covers the
: development of non-destructive methods for detecting bonding
: defects, using four different techniques: conventional ultrasonics,
: acoustic microscopy, infra-red thermography and neutron radiography.
: The second part concerns the mechanical tests used, and their
: usefulness in measuring adhesion, and the last part compares the
: results of the two kinds of tests. The most effective
: non-destructive techniques of defect detection proved to be
: ultrasonics and neutron radiography, though the latter is not
: practicable for industrial use. It was seen that present ways of
: interpreting mechanical adhesion tests were inadequate, because
: they did not take into account the stiffness of the steel
: substrates in the bonded assemblies. Conclusions of the comparison
: were that none of the non-destructive techniques used is capable of
: evaluating the state of adhesion between the two steel faces, and
: therefore they could not be related to the peel and tensile/shear
: tests. In certain cases, the non-destructive tests detected defects
: which did not modify at all the results of the mechanical tests.

: Rolf Diederichs

Thank you



 
18:56 Jan-22-2013
Michael Bushnell
Re: Determining Bond strength on 1" thick rubber covered rolls In Reply to David Hermanutz at 05:02 Mar-25-1999 .

Just curious, is there a specific code and or method you use to use NDT and qualify or reject a part based on disbond of rubber to metal ?

 
23:55 Jan-22-2013
Sudheer Jai Krishnan
Re: Determining Bond strength on 1" thick rubber covered rolls In Reply to Michael Bushnell at 18:56 Jan-22-2013 .

Hi Michael

You can easily do it with Phase Reversal technique. Based on the thickness, you can select the frequency of the transducer and you can easily spot the difference between a bonded and a disbonded joint in RF wave

We have did a trial in my past for a similar kind (silicone bonded to GFRP in composite insulators) where we got good results.

Please find the application weblink

http://www.olympus-ims.com/en/applications/bonding-testing-composite-powerlines/

Regards

Sudheer Jai Krishnan

 


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