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- since 1996 -

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Technical Discussions
John D
John D
05:22 Jun-20-2005

Can someone help me out? I am trying to figure out how do radiographers calculate the safe working distance from a source. We are in a shutdown and have maintenance crews working in the same areas as RT crews. I know the inverse square law gives us that information, but that is theoretical. What about if they are using a collimator and the pipe is 1/2" thick with a double wall exposure. What would be the actual distance? And what about the direction of the radiation?

Mathias
Mathias
00:45 Jun-20-2005
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
You must have a physical barrier at 7.5 ìSv/hr. How do you achieve this? Lets say you use 250 kV and 4 mA in your example. If no object is in the way for the radiation this gives 6 Sv/hr at 1 metre. If you then use the inverse square law the safety distance is 895 m. For steel and 250 kV the half value layer is 12 mm. So if the incoming radiation is 6 Sv/hr the radiation out is approx. 3 Sv/hr, then you need a safety distance of 632 m. Wow. This is how to calculate the safety distance for the central beam of radiation, but in the real life you have other objects around you that absorb the radiation (pipes, valves, etc.), so if dont want to set up a barrier around half the world you need to measure the radiation level with a dose rate meter.

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Can someone help me out? I am trying to figure out how do radiographers calculate the safe working distance from a source. We are in a shutdown and have maintenance crews working in the same areas as RT crews. I know the inverse square law gives us that information, but that is theoretical. What about if they are using a collimator and the pipe is 1/2" thick with a double wall exposure. What would be the actual distance? And what about the direction of the radiation?
------------ End Original Message ------------

JohnD
JohnD
01:37 Jun-20-2005
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
----------- Start Original Message -----------
: You must have a physical barrier at 7.5 ìSv/hr. How do you achieve this? Lets say you use 250 kV and 4 mA in your example. If no object is in the way for the radiation this gives 6 Sv/hr at 1 metre. If you then use the inverse square law the safety distance is 895 m. For steel and 250 kV the half value layer is 12 mm. So if the incoming radiation is 6 Sv/hr the radiation out is approx. 3 Sv/hr, then you need a safety distance of 632 m. Wow. This is how to calculate the safety distance for the central beam of radiation, but in the real life you have other objects around you that absorb the radiation (pipes, valves, etc.), so if dont want to set up a barrier around half the world you need to measure the radiation level with a dose rate meter.
: : Can someone help me out? I am trying to figure out how do radiographers calculate the safe working distance from a source. We are in a shutdown and have maintenance crews working in the same areas as RT crews. I know the inverse square law gives us that information, but that is theoretical. What about if they are using a collimator and the pipe is 1/2" thick with a double wall exposure. What would be the actual distance? And what about the direction of the radiation?
------------ End Original Message ------------

But that's what I am asking. How do you calculate the safe distance if there are things inthe way. Like the pipe you are shooting for example. I know the Inverse Square Law.

Zeki Cosku Gokce
Zeki Cosku Gokce
00:15 Jun-20-2005
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
The calculations are only used for starting point. Even if you used the colimator you will still have some leakage. So you cannot guarantee the accuracy of your calculations. I know when you apply for the permit the Plant HSE people would like to see everything in writing. The way I used to get around it was I would make a detailed calculation for a specific joint (usually the worst case scenario) And also explained them on the meeting that this would be the case if there were nothing around the radiography crew and the real controlled area would be found by measuring the radiation using the calculation as a guide. Also you have to remember as long as you controlled the people in the controlled area they can work in side your controlled area. That means if someone needs to get readings or the plant control room is in the limits of your controlled area. Then you issue everyone a dosimeter and make sure they use it.

Hannes
Hannes
01:41 Jul-15-2008
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
Hi there,

You can use the following formula;

A = Ao X e -((LIN2/HVL) X Thickness of steel)

AMINE
AMINE
10:40 Jan-22-2012
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Hannes at 01:41 Jul-15-2008 .

Dear Hannes ,

Could you please help me urgently , Could you give me all the details concerning the calculation of the safe distance during radiography , We are using currently in our site sources of 10, 25, 20 , 35 and 40 curies .Your urgent reply will be highly appreciated.

Best Regards

Amine

Csaba Hollo
,
Retired, Canada, Joined Feb 2010, 301

Csaba Hollo

,
Retired,
Joined Feb 2010
301
19:10 Jan-23-2012
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to AMINE at 10:40 Jan-22-2012 .

For Iridium 192, your factors are 480 mR(4.8 mSv)/hr/ci @1meter
For Cobalt 60, it is 1.35 R (13.5 mSv)/hr/ci @ 1 meter
For Selenium 75 it is 200 mR (2 mSv)/hr/ci @ 1 meter

Calculate your half or tenth value layers for your shielding, then use the inverse square law for intensity. (twice the distance=one quarter the intensity, conversely, one half the distance=4 times the intensity). Depending on your regulatory boundary limits for exposure to the public, safe distances may vary.
You have to be prepared to understand how the calculations work, and to be able to work this out for yourself as part of your radiation protection plan.

Brent
Brent
20:12 Jan-23-2012
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Csaba Hollo at 19:10 Jan-23-2012 .

Don't forget that after all calculations are made you have to test the actual mSv/hour delivered at the barrier all the way around. Calculations are just there to help you guess at the safe distance and the barrier limit is determined by your countries regulations.

Vinoth kumar Kannan
Vinoth kumar Kannan
10:50 Dec-26-2013
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Hannes at 01:41 Jul-15-2008 .

Kindly send me the detail abbreviations for Formula A = Ao X e -((LIN2/HVL) X Thickness of steel) please.

Regards,

Vinoth kumar Kannan

Babu Ram Sharma
NDT Inspector, Welding Inspector CSWIP 3.1, Radiation Safety Officer (RSO)
RGF NDT & Inspection Division, Saudi Arabia, Joined Jan 2014, 9

Babu Ram Sharma

NDT Inspector, Welding Inspector CSWIP 3.1, Radiation Safety Officer (RSO)
RGF NDT & Inspection Division,
Saudi Arabia,
Joined Jan 2014
9
19:50 Jan-04-2014
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Vinoth kumar Kannan at 10:50 Dec-26-2013 .

Mr. Vinoth kumar Kannan,

in the formula: A = Ao X e -((LIN2/HVL) X Thickness of steel

A= Final Activity in Curie
Ao= Initial activity in Curie
e= Exponantial
L1N2= constant value(0.6932)
HVL= Half value layer of Steel (ie. 12.5 mm)
and, thickness of steel which is used for shielding.

Thanks.

y rajasekhar reddy
y rajasekhar reddy
17:36 Aug-22-2014
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to AMINE at 10:40 Jan-22-2012 .

y.rajasekhar reddy

Could you please help me urgently , Could you give me all the details concerning the calculation of the safe distance during radiography , We are using currently in our site sources of 10, 25, 20 , 35 and 40 curies .Your urgent reply will be highly appreciated.

Best Regards

rajasekhar reddy
rajasekhar reddy
17:41 Aug-22-2014
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Zeki Cosku Gokce at 00:15 Jun-20-2005 .

y rajasekhar reddy

salim
salim
18:44 Feb-12-2015
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Hannes at 01:41 Jul-15-2008 .

please tell what is the safe distence from origin

Akbar shaik
Akbar shaik
05:56 Apr-10-2015
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Hannes at 01:41 Jul-15-2008 .

Mr.Hannes,
would you please provide the complete details for calculating the safe barrier distance with various strengths of ir-192. expecting a formula from you sir.

thanking you sir.
Regards, Akbar shaik

Michel Couture
NDT Inspector,
consultant, Canada, Joined Sep 2006, 897

Michel Couture

NDT Inspector,
consultant,
Joined Sep 2006
897
22:56 Apr-10-2015
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Akbar shaik at 05:56 Apr-10-2015 .

Akbar,

Csaba gave you all the information to calculate your safe distance. What more do you want? Do we have to go do your job and put your barriers up, crank your source and process and read your film?

guest
guest
02:49 Apr-12-2015
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Michel Couture at 22:56 Apr-10-2015 .

There is a shielding and distance calculator for gamma on the ATTAR website in the download section.

www.attar.com.au

Sami
Sami
11:43 Apr-13-2015
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to y rajasekhar reddy at 17:36 Aug-22-2014 .

For Ir 192 gamma source the dose rate at 1 meter is 13mGy/hr/Ci
to calculate the safe distance for safety barriers 7.5microSv/hr
conversion factor from mGy to microGy
1 is the Q factor for Gamma Ray
D1=1

D2 = root of (D1 square X 13mGy/hr/Ci X 1000 X 1X Ci used)/( 7.5 microSv/hr))

Denver
Engineering,
United Arab Emirates (UAE), Joined Apr 2015, 5

Denver

Engineering,
United Arab Emirates (UAE),
Joined Apr 2015
5
07:15 Apr-17-2015
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Sami at 11:43 Apr-13-2015 .

Michel Couture
NDT Inspector,
consultant, Canada, Joined Sep 2006, 897

Michel Couture

NDT Inspector,
consultant,
Joined Sep 2006
897
11:35 Apr-17-2015
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Denver at 07:15 Apr-17-2015 .

Denver,

I guess it would be safer to set your barriers iaw the local laws. In some countries the members of the general public have lower limits than the one you have stated. In Canada for example, it is 1mR.

Shankar Arumugam
Other, NDE Engineer
India, Joined Oct 2013, 39

Shankar Arumugam

Other, NDE Engineer
India,
Joined Oct 2013
39
12:07 May-02-2015
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Michel Couture at 11:35 Apr-17-2015 .

Safe distance =Sqr. root [(Ci x RHM x W x T) / P]

where
Ci - Curie strength
RHM - Roentgen/Hour/Meter (for Ir192-0.48, Co60-1.3)
W - Work Load (No. of exposures per week x duration of exposure in minutes)
T - Occupancy factor (full ocupancy -1 ; partial ocupancy - 1/4 ; rare ocupancy - 1/16)
P- Permissible does (permissible dose for public in your country/week)

this formula will help to calculate safe working distance from radiation zone.

ndt technician
ndt technician
12:05 Jul-14-2015
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Zeki Cosku Gokce at 00:15 Jun-20-2005 .

sir can you teach me how to use or calculate safedistance with collimator using inverse square law?? tnx sir for helping

Menon
Menon
09:01 Jul-22-2015
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Zeki Cosku Gokce at 00:15 Jun-20-2005 .

What should be the safe distance maintained for a Radiography work by using

SOURCE TYPE STRENGTH TIME OF EXPOSURE
Ir-192 80 CURIE 25 HOURS

Csaba Hollo
,
Retired, Canada, Joined Feb 2010, 301

Csaba Hollo

,
Retired,
Joined Feb 2010
301
18:15 Jul-22-2015
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Menon at 09:01 Jul-22-2015 .

Honestly, guys.

The formulas have been given. If you can't do the calculations, you really shouldn't be in NDT.

Franie Louie Ferolino
Franie Louie Ferolino
06:52 Sep-12-2015
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Hannes at 01:41 Jul-15-2008 .

hi there,

if any one can help me... i was calculating for the safe distance after the shielding or the material being radiograp but was not able to come up with the right answer. please help me....

i have a panoramic exposure for cylindrical tank with 36mm thickness, 8 meter inside diameter. Ir-192 : 90Ci activity. i would like to know how much activity after the 36mm material thickness (or Outside of tank).

thank you....

Sys
NDT Inspector, Shared Resources Manager (HT, Chemical Processing
Collins Aerospace System, Indonesia, Joined Sep 2015, 7

Sys

NDT Inspector, Shared Resources Manager (HT, Chemical Processing
Collins Aerospace System,
Indonesia,
Joined Sep 2015
7
17:18 Sep-17-2015
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Franie Louie Ferolino at 06:52 Sep-12-2015 .

Dear All,
3 basic principle "Safety" in Radiography activity, are:
- Distance--> Far away is better
- Time, and--> Faster is better
- Shielding-->Thicker is better

@Franie Louie Ferolino
The Formula been delivered by Hannes

@Csaba Hello
I agreed with you

13:17 Dec-18-2015
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Hannes at 01:41 Jul-15-2008 .

hello dear
kindly if you have any text regarding the exposure distance and the techniques used in radiographics such DWDI.SWSI,DWSI etc..
i need to know the procedure for set the radiation source which either x-ray or camera and its proper distance from pipes.

04:51 Nov-09-2016
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to John D at 05:22 Jun-20-2005 (Opening).

If radiography is going on about 8 meters per side then what is the total length of barricaded area required

Guest
Guest
07:39 Nov-09-2016
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography

try this for approximate values

Sumaiya
Sumaiya
06:30 Nov-30-2016
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Hannes at 01:41 Jul-15-2008 .

Hey,
Greetings!!!
M primi with 16wks of pregnancy.My working placement is about 5-6 ft away from X-ray room.Is it harmful for fetus??M little bit tense.Please let me know..

Regards
Sumaiya

S V Swamy
Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex , India, Joined Feb 2001, 787

S V Swamy

Engineering, - Material Testing Inspection & Quality Control
Retired from Nuclear Fuel Complex ,
India,
Joined Feb 2001
787
09:16 Nov-30-2016
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Sumaiya at 06:30 Nov-30-2016 .

It may safe if enough shielding is provided in the X-ray room. It is always good to get the dosage checked with a dosimeter. Another factor would be the amount of time that you spend in that area. If possible, spend less time there and more time at another place far from any radiation source.

If you are working with radiation, you should be provided with a personal badge that would be periodically monitored.

Best wishes to you and the baby inside.

Swamy

Anto jeyson
Anto jeyson
15:08 Apr-04-2017
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Babu Ram Sharma at 19:50 Jan-04-2014 .

Can you explain the garden of distance for X-ray machine,
160kv 0.5 mA

Zscherpel, Uwe
Director,
BAM Berlin, Germany, Joined Jan 2010, 89

Zscherpel, Uwe

Director,
BAM Berlin,
Germany,
Joined Jan 2010
89
16:34 Apr-10-2017
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Anto jeyson at 15:08 Apr-04-2017 .

Dear John D.,
just a hint: real radiographers do not calculate, because there are too many incalculable influences. So they just went to the site and move the source to the active position. Than they measure the dose rate and a typical value for the controlled area is set by 40 micro Gray/h at least in Europe.
Best regards
Uwe Z.

Anto jeyson
India, Joined Apr 2017, 1

Anto jeyson

India,
Joined Apr 2017
1
16:44 Apr-12-2017
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Zscherpel, Uwe at 16:34 Apr-10-2017 .

We didn't get sharpe image in computerised radiography (phorspher plate) while using X-ray tube.
Image is very sharpe while using iridium 192.
So what is the issues?
Why couldn't get good image using by X-ray

James Scalf
NDT Inspector,
Global Integrity, Canada, Joined Oct 2012, 276

James Scalf

NDT Inspector,
Global Integrity,
Joined Oct 2012
276
20:06 Apr-12-2017
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Anto jeyson at 16:44 Apr-12-2017 .

Anto,

There are a number of things that could have occurred. Without knowing what your set up was and what you were shooting as well as the basic parameters of your X-Ray unit (such as kV, mA, time of your exposure, Distance of X-Ray source to part, distance X-Ray source to imaging plate, distance of part to imaging plate, Focal spot size of your X-Ray source and if any screens or filters were used and what shielding you used behind the imaging plate) it is hard to simply state one specific reason why you had such a difference. Simply switching from one excitation source to another in Computed Radiography is not as simple as it is in conventional film as the phosphor imaging plates are more sensitive to a variety of external things.

Please provide more information so we can make a better determination of what may or may not have gone wrong. Cheers...

James

Uwe Zscherpel
Director,
BAM Berlin, Germany, Joined Jan 2010, 89

Uwe Zscherpel

Director,
BAM Berlin,
Germany,
Joined Jan 2010
89
00:22 Apr-13-2017
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to James Scalf at 20:06 Apr-12-2017 .

Dear Anto,
If you are using Ir-192 its clear that you do not provide any details on X-ray voltage or currect, because you are using an isotopic source and its spectrum is fixed by the physics of gamma decay.
But nevertheless, details on the applied imaging plates,used cassettes and means for back scatter protection are missing in your questions. Please provide these details to be able to help you. Did you check ISO 17636-2:2013 to find hint on correct screen material and thickness as well as shielding requirements? These are different theh with film. Did you also joined a suitable training course for industrial CR to learn about dififernt approaches between film and digital?
A typical problem with CR is than you need to cover lead screens used for back scattershielding by a copper of steel screen near top the cassette, because the IP is very sensitive to the X-ray fluorescense leaving the surface of lead screens. This is different to film.
In general, the image unsharpness will increase with the energy for each radiation detector.
Best regards
Uwe Z.

Laurent
Consultant,
France, Joined Mar 2016, 16

Laurent

Consultant,
France,
Joined Mar 2016
16
11:12 Mar-21-2018
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Denver at 07:15 Apr-17-2015 .

Denver,

You have written something of very important:
To consider the dose during 1 hour and not to calculate the dose by 1 hour.
Calculation of the distance shall take the operational conditions: number of shoot, direction, area of the shoot... At least the time of exposure and the number of shoot to be considered. Not easy or impossible to calculate precisely the dose in 1 hour.
Necessary to confirm by recording the dose during the working day at the safe separation distance.

azeez khalifa
azeez khalifa
12:12 Jun-28-2018
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Mathias at 00:45 Jun-20-2005 .

dear sir
can you explain to me haw can i calculate the safe distance for 300 kV 5 mA I want exact formula i can masseur it by survey neater but my client ask for the actual formulas , i have for gamma ray but i cant fund any thing for the x ray
thanks.

William A Jensen
Other,
IHI Southwest Technologies, Inc., USA, Joined May 2017, 67

William A Jensen

Other,
IHI Southwest Technologies, Inc.,
USA,
Joined May 2017
67
13:50 Jun-28-2018
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to azeez khalifa at 12:12 Jun-28-2018 .

The exposure rate from a point source of radiation is inversely proportional to the square of the distance. In other words, increasing the distance by a factor of 2 will decrease the exposure by a factor of 4. This concept can be summarized using the inverse square law.
I1D12 = I2D22
D = distance
Example: If the exposure rate is10 mR/hr at one foot from a radiation source,
what is the exposure rate at 2 feet?
I1D12 = I2D22
(10mR/hr) x (1 foot)2 = (?) x (2 feet)2
10 = 4x
x = 2.5 mR/hr

P. M. Mahesh
India, Joined Nov 2017, 2

P. M. Mahesh

India,
Joined Nov 2017
2
13:16 Jul-02-2018
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to William A Jensen at 13:50 Jun-28-2018 .

Dear All - Concerned with Safe Working Distance for Industrial Radiography:

'Necessity is the mother of invention' - as they say.

M/s. SafeRad Ltd., based in the UK has invented, designed and manufactures 'SafeRad Radiography system' for industrial radiography testing and evaluation applications, where-in the safe working distance required is only 1.5 to 2 meters from the radiography source set-up, irrespective of the source strength. The technique is popularly known as 'Close Proximity Radiography' or 'Controlled Area For Radiography Testing'.

It is widely used in the oil & gas sector - refineries, petrochemical plants etc...and has proved its worth during plant shut-down and revamp operations, wherein you have many people working round the clock and to evacuate them during radiography would be counter productive and very expensive to the construction companies.

'SafeRad Radiography system' overcomes all the problems and dis-advantages associated with radiation safety and provides high quality radiographs using both the conventional film medium and /or digital medium, without any disruption to the on-going construction schedules in the near vicinity of the radiography location.

Thank you

Sergio Aragón
Sergio Aragón
18:02 Jan-18-2019
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Shankar Arumugam at 12:07 May-02-2015 .

Dear friend, could you tell me what's the occupancy factor or what is it regarding to? I'd appreciate your help since I used your formula to calculate the safe distance and I think I got it, but not sure of this factor, thanks in advance and have a great weekend

ASHOK KUMAR PATRA
,
Saudi K-KEM Engineering service co, Saudi Arabia, Joined May 2018, 63

ASHOK KUMAR PATRA

,
Saudi K-KEM Engineering service co,
Saudi Arabia,
Joined May 2018
63
07:44 Jan-19-2019
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to John D at 05:22 Jun-20-2005 (Opening).

Barication = root over { ( Ci X 0.48 X 1000 X 0.054)/ 0.75 mr/hr}

jaimin patel
NDT Inspector, NDT LeveL-III @ UIC, KSA
Saudi Arabia, Joined Dec 2012, 100

jaimin patel

NDT Inspector, NDT LeveL-III @ UIC, KSA
Saudi Arabia,
Joined Dec 2012
100
13:40 Feb-04-2019
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to John D at 05:22 Jun-20-2005 (Opening).

Root square of [ RHM x Source Strength(in curie) x1000/Max. Permisible limit(in micro Sievert).

jilin varghese
jilin varghese
20:38 Apr-27-2019
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Hannes at 01:41 Jul-15-2008 .

1. Can u plz give me a detail info on radiography safe working distance ?
2. Wats the safe calculation on a survey meter and dosimter ?
I thnk its .25 mr . Is thz corrct ?

jean staton
jean staton
17:27 Jun-19-2019
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Mathias at 00:45 Jun-20-2005 .

Here in the states we are still using terminology like curies; mR/hr ETC.

Ricardo Andreucci
FATEC - Technological University of Sao Paulo, Brazil, Joined May 2018, 38

Ricardo Andreucci

FATEC - Technological University of Sao Paulo,
Brazil,
Joined May 2018
38
17:01 Jun-24-2019
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Denver at 07:15 Apr-17-2015 .

Hi Mr. John D.
I agree with Mr. Denver.
The workers will be protected if they follow the recommendations and dose rate limits of international radiation protection standards. Thus, the most practical method is to measure the dose rate before working for each radiographic examination exposure in order to determine the radiation level, and to determine the best way to protect them. Keep in mind that time, distance and physical barrier are the only form of protection. In general you have to avoid to use physical barrier becouse it is not practical.

Subho
Subho
19:31 Jun-27-2019
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Shankar Arumugam at 12:07 May-02-2015 .

My question is.....

13:25 Jan-20-2020
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to Babu Ram Sharma at 19:50 Jan-04-2014 .

Sir ,
Tell me how to calculate distance of Radiography test?Formula!

P Garland
Consultant,
P J Garland & Associates, South Africa, Joined Jun 2000, 6

P Garland

Consultant,
P J Garland & Associates,
South Africa,
Joined Jun 2000
6
08:55 Jan-27-2020
Re: Safe Working Distance for Radiography
In Reply to John D at 05:22 Jun-20-2005 (Opening).

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