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Technical Discussions
Paul Robertson
,
Netherlands, Joined Jun 2003, 12

Paul Robertson

,
Netherlands,
Joined Jun 2003
12
02:59 Oct-17-2005
Corrosion of Street Lighting Columns

Is there a real need to recognise corrosion at ground level and below? - it's certainly a critical area re. stress moments. Standard (NDT) inspections are normally visual and UT thickness combined. Anybody have thoughts on this issue and whether there is a market (mainland Europe/UK) that visual/UT cannot achieve.

Thank you in advance
Paul



    
 
 
Jim Yukes
Consultant
Canada, Joined Aug 2005, 11

Jim Yukes

Consultant
Canada,
Joined Aug 2005
11
03:20 Oct-21-2005
Re: Corrosion of Street Lighting Columns
We looked into this problem in Canada and the US several years ago. There was insufficient money available from the cities to warrant the inspection. UT was too slow. The main problems are cracking from wind near the top of the pole and corrosion at the bottom of the pole. The technique that seemed to be most commonly used, fast and cost effective is to hit the pole with a hammer.

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Is there a real need to recognise corrosion at ground level and below? - it's certainly a critical area re. stress moments. Standard (NDT) inspections are normally visual and UT thickness combined. Anybody have thoughts on this issue and whether there is a market (mainland Europe/UK) that visual/UT cannot achieve.
: Thank you in advance
: Paul
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 
Godfrey Hands
Engineering,
PRI Nadcap, United Kingdom, Joined Nov 1998, 288

Godfrey Hands

Engineering,
PRI Nadcap,
United Kingdom,
Joined Nov 1998
288
08:16 Oct-22-2005
Re: Corrosion of Street Lighting Columns
NDT Consultants in the UK have a new technology whicis suitable for testing street lighting poles for corrosion.
It is Long Range Ultrasonics, or Guided Waves.
These are generated electromagnetically in the steel of the poles and travel along the length of the poles to detect corrosion or cracking.
It is also very easy to turn the sound direction from "upwards" to "downwards" to see what the situation is like underground.

The technology has also been sucessfully applied on the steel reinforcing of hollow concrete poles.

If anybody has a need for this, please contact us at sales@ndt-consultants.co.uk


Godfrey
----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Is there a real need to recognise corrosion at ground level and below? - it's certainly a critical area re. stress moments. Standard (NDT) inspections are normally visual and UT thickness combined. Anybody have thoughts on this issue and whether there is a market (mainland Europe/UK) that visual/UT cannot achieve.
: Thank you in advance
: Paul
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 
John O'Brien
Consultant, -
Chevron ETC , USA, Joined Jan 2000, 278

John O'Brien

Consultant, -
Chevron ETC ,
USA,
Joined Jan 2000
278
00:27 Oct-22-2005
Re: Corrosion of Street Lighting Columns
Paul

you are a little late to the market as this problem has been kicking around Europe for the past few years. There have been failures on motorways due to soil air interface corrosion also some decorative lighting poles with flower baskets, overwatering adds weight. There is a deflection test used across Europe which involves pushing on the top of the lighting column and measuring deflection. There has also been numerous surveys let based on Long Range Ultrasonics, Sonic Testing, Manual ultrasonics and Eddy Current. This initial 'panic' about liability issues seems to have gone out of the market but I am sure there is still some degree of work about. You may find price is a significant issue as the testing is not the high cost item but providing safe access and other related issues are. As such the engineering consultants who control most of this work are looking for low pricing per unit.

There may be a market but whether its profitable may be another question.




    
 
 
Richard Kazares
Richard Kazares
06:14 Oct-22-2005
Re: Corrosion of Street Lighting Columns
It is interesting to follow this discussion.

Several years ago (mid 1990's) we supplied a magnetic scanner (currently named "LSI" for "Large Structure Inspection") that was configured for pole climbing. As the system was then in a rather "immature" design state - it WORKED - but not fast enough. The current version of the system is considerably faster and more flexible - and could easily be configured for this type of application - and includes adapters that would permit it to climb non-magnetic materials.

Thus, if ultrasound (or eddy current - or vision) were the technologies of choice for this type of inspection, the LSI could serve as a platform to bring the proper sensors to the needed locations.

In any event I agree with the comment that the problem, while "serious" is apparantly not serious enough to warrant any investment by owners of the "poles".


----------- Start Original Message -----------
: We looked into this problem in Canada and the US several years ago. There was insufficient money available from the cities to warrant the inspection. UT was too slow. The main problems are cracking from wind near the top of the pole and corrosion at the bottom of the pole. The technique that seemed to be most commonly used, fast and cost effective is to hit the pole with a hammer.
: : Is there a real need to recognise corrosion at ground level and below? - it's certainly a critical area re. stress moments. Standard (NDT) inspections are normally visual and UT thickness combined. Anybody have thoughts on this issue and whether there is a market (mainland Europe/UK) that visual/UT cannot achieve.
: : Thank you in advance
: : Paul
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 
Neil Burleigh
Sales
Krautkramer Australia Pty Ltd, Australia, Joined Dec 2002, 152

Neil Burleigh

Sales
Krautkramer Australia Pty Ltd,
Australia,
Joined Dec 2002
152
01:05 Oct-24-2005
Re: Corrosion of Street Lighting Columns
Yes,There are two very real problems here. The first is the detection of cracking in the joints of steel road signs, street lighting and power poles due to wind shear. This typically occurs near the top of the poles and in Australia an MP inspection or ET weld inspection would be done.
The other problem the detection of corrosion below the ground of the steel poles. We have found that the corrosion occurs between 100 and 500 mm below the surface detection and monitoring of this corrosion is very costly but so is human injury when a pole falls over. What most of the the power supply and roads authority is dig around the pole and perform VT and UT. As yet we have not come up with a cost effective solution to this problem.
Recently we had a discussion about this application and an associate mentioned there might be solution coming from Europe. I will have to check back through my notes to find out where it came from.

Regards

Neil Burleigh

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: We looked into this problem in Canada and the US several years ago. There was insufficient money available from the cities to warrant the inspection. UT was too slow. The main problems are cracking from wind near the top of the pole and corrosion at the bottom of the pole. The technique that seemed to be most commonly used, fast and cost effective is to hit the pole with a hammer.
: : Is there a real need to recognise corrosion at ground level and below? - it's certainly a critical area re. stress moments. Standard (NDT) inspections are normally visual and UT thickness combined. Anybody have thoughts on this issue and whether there is a market (mainland Europe/UK) that visual/UT cannot achieve.
: : Thank you in advance
: : Paul
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 
David Hermanutz
Consultant,
Hbndt.com, China, Joined Jul 2012, 85

David Hermanutz

Consultant,
Hbndt.com,
China,
Joined Jul 2012
85
02:36 Oct-24-2005
Re: Corrosion of Street Lighting Columns
Hi,

I heard that they were using guided wave Ultrasonics in the UK for detecting below ground level corrosion on power poles. The equipment is quite costly and has several significant limitations but has been an effective screening tool for the problem.

If the Risk analysis dictates an inspection method better than a hammer is required this may be worth looking into.

Regards,

David Hermanutz
RTD Quality Services
Pipeline Integrity
North America

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Yes,There are two very real problems here. The first is the detection of cracking in the joints of steel road signs, street lighting and power poles due to wind shear. This typically occurs near the top of the poles and in Australia an MP inspection or ET weld inspection would be done.
: The other problem the detection of corrosion below the ground of the steel poles. We have found that the corrosion occurs between 100 and 500 mm below the surface detection and monitoring of this corrosion is very costly but so is human injury when a pole falls over. What most of the the power supply and roads authority is dig around the pole and perform VT and UT. As yet we have not come up with a cost effective solution to this problem.
: Recently we had a discussion about this application and an associate mentioned there might be solution coming from Europe. I will have to check back through my notes to find out where it came from.
: Regards
: Neil Burleigh
: : We looked into this problem in Canada and the US several years ago. There was insufficient money available from the cities to warrant the inspection. UT was too slow. The main problems are cracking from wind near the top of the pole and corrosion at the bottom of the pole. The technique that seemed to be most commonly used, fast and cost effective is to hit the pole with a hammer.
: : : Is there a real need to recognise corrosion at ground level and below? - it's certainly a critical area re. stress moments. Standard (NDT) inspections are normally visual and UT thickness combined. Anybody have thoughts on this issue and whether there is a market (mainland Europe/UK) that visual/UT cannot achieve.
: : : Thank you in advance
: : : Paul
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 
ingar
ingar
12:47 Aug-24-2014
Re: Corrosion of Street Lighting Columns
In Reply to Paul Robertson at 02:59 Oct-17-2005 (Opening).

hii...there is something called the RLS system which is mainly used in Singapore , by our company and in UK.RLS stands for relative loss of section...basically the instrument works on eddy current principle. A reference point is measured and later compared with the area of metal where need to be tested for suspected loss.this system also takes the visual of the base of the lamp pole where there is an interface between soil,water,air.this instrument can measure upto 200 mm vertical and 200 mm horizontally making this instrument a great time saver unlike ultrasonic.we have tested more than 500,000 lamp poles successfully using this RLS system.it also comes with a small search head for testing smaller areas.

    
 
 
Ingar
Ingar
05:37 Sep-23-2016
Re: Corrosion of Street Lighting Columns
In Reply to Neil Burleigh at 01:05 Oct-24-2005 .

hii...there is something called the RLS system which is mainly used in Singapore , by our company and in UK & Australia as well.RLS stands for relative loss of section...basically the instrument works on eddy current principle. A reference point is measured and later compared with the area of metal where need to be tested for suspected loss.this system also takes the visual of the base of the lamp pole where there is an interface between soil,water,air.this instrument can measure upto 200 mm vertical and 200 mm horizontally making this instrument a great time saver unlike ultrasonic.we have tested more than 500,000 lamp poles successfully using this RLS system.it also comes with a small search head for testing smaller areas.

    
 
 
John Hansen
Director, - Eddy Current Technology
ETher NDE Ltd, United Kingdom, Joined Oct 1999, 72

John Hansen

Director, - Eddy Current Technology
ETher NDE Ltd,
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 1999
72
09:55 Sep-23-2016
Re: Corrosion of Street Lighting Columns
In Reply to Ingar at 05:37 Sep-23-2016 .

There is also ColCheck from TVC here http://www.tvcalx.co.uk/product/colchek/

    
 
 
Syed Ali
R & D,
Innerspec Technology, USA, Joined Oct 2009, 17

Syed Ali

R & D,
Innerspec Technology,
USA,
Joined Oct 2009
17
15:44 Sep-26-2016
Re: Corrosion of Street Lighting Columns
In Reply to Paul Robertson at 02:59 Oct-17-2005 (Opening).

The temate® MRUT uses medium-range guided waves with a typical inspection range between 0.1m (4″) and 3m (105″) to detect corrosion, cracks and discontinuities on tubes, gas lines, oil pipelines and storage tanks.

The system uses Electro Magnetric Acoustic Transducers (EMAT) technology to perform fast scanning on exposed tubes and tanks as well as inspections of inaccessible areas from a fixed position. With the use of higher frequencies and a shorter range, this technique detects isolated pitting and wall loss with up to 10 times better resolution than Long Range UT systems with minimal dead zone.

The equipment includes different sensors to excite Lamb and Shear Horizontal guided wave modes, including a new patent-pending magnetostrictive scanner and custom software designed for the inspection of pipes with heavy coatings and CUPS (Corrosion Under Pipe Supports) and Air-to-Soil interaces.

    
 
 
John Norman
Consultant, owner of business
NTS Ultrasonics Pty Ltd, Australia, Joined Oct 2012, 108

John Norman

Consultant, owner of business
NTS Ultrasonics Pty Ltd,
Australia,
Joined Oct 2012
108
02:11 Sep-27-2016
Re: Corrosion of Street Lighting Columns
In Reply to Ingar at 05:37 Sep-23-2016 .

Hi Ingar.

I have recently completed a field trial comparing a medium range ultrasonic guided wave system with an RLS system looking at corrosion below the ground line for both galvanized and powder coated steel street lighting poles. The RLS system, is quick to use, but requires excavation to work in the corrosion affected zone of these poles. Excavation slows down the inspection. Also, the RLS system gives a sort of average metal loss reading, and can give false readings when "flakey" corrosion is present.
The medium range ultrasonic guided wave system is a prototype system that I developed for a client. It is easy and quick to use, excavation is not required, and should be inexpensive in its final form. However the project is not complete. Work still needs to be done on calibration and also on identifying false positives (echoes not related to metal loss). EMATs may be a good idea, but are not necessary in my system.

Regards
John Norman

    
 
 

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