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Technical Discussions
p.bogatinovski
NDT Inspector
certlab.co, Serbia & Montenegro, Joined Feb 2004, 4

p.bogatinovski

NDT Inspector
certlab.co,
Serbia & Montenegro,
Joined Feb 2004
4
00:08 Aug-05-2006
False radiographs

Recently i have discovered false radiographs. Company which I supervise handover two differently numerized radiographs of the same weld. Later i discovered more fakes. It's oil pipeline. Any sugestions?


    
 
 
Nigel Armstr
Engineering, - Specialist services
United Kingdom, Joined Oct 2000, 1094

Nigel Armstr

Engineering, - Specialist services
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 2000
1094
06:15 Aug-06-2006
Re: False radiographs
Of which welding process(es) were the radiographs? What were the clue(s) which led you to the conclusion that the radiographers were doing "ringers"? If you have discovered other frauds from the same rediography crew then it looks serious, but have a second opinion if possible.

If the graphs were of manual welding then this is akin to a signature so recognition of multiple shots of the same weld with changing idents is relatively easy to find and deal with, though you still need to be careful. As soon as you are certain and have hard evidence to back up your claim, report it to your supervisor/manager who will then have the responsibility of dealing with the matter. Usually this will be removal of the offending radiographers and replacement with a new crew AND review of all previous radiographs to check for other instances of fraud followed by the welds being radiographed if possible.

Automatic welding is a little different and you will have to tread carefully as it can be very difficult to prove due to the usual lack of unique features on such welds. Immediately try to watch the radiograph crew's performance or assign someone to watch to prevent further fraud whilst attempting to gather evidence. Review all radiographs and attempt to build up a profile.

Whatever you do, do NOT confront the radiographers with accusations. And in any case dont expect them to crumple and confess even if you do have some evidence. They wont admit it, they may fight back and cause you problems.

Perhaps you may like to keep us informed of developments as it is an age-old topic of interest to radiographers and interpreters.

Best of luck

Nigel

Regards

Nigel


Start Original Message -----------
: Recently i have discovered false radiographs. Company which I supervise handover two differently numerized radiographs of the same weld. Later i discovered more fakes. It's oil pipeline. Any sugestions?
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 
Roberto Falconio
Engineering, NDT/Metrology SUPERVISOR
El Salvador, Joined Feb 2000, 13

Roberto Falconio

Engineering, NDT/Metrology SUPERVISOR
El Salvador,
Joined Feb 2000
13
05:39 Aug-06-2006
Re: False radiographs
That´s too bad, We had a similar problem on which we reject a small container due that the film shows several non acceptable weld defects.
The customer was not please at all because it affects his production so he look forward another company and they got a film from the same weld without any defect and with a readable IQI holes.
However what we do is we shot the weld in front of the regulathory authority inspector, we perfrom the whole process with this government inspector as witness(Those guys should approve the product) and they were convinced that there was a problem with the customer and the other company.
As neil says you must be very sure before start any complain or take any action.
In other instances, we have found several radiograph of a tubular structure in which a company shot the same weld without changing the position of the machine, they just change the ID of the film, it was very easy to discriminate because it were exacltly the same weld and conditions.
If you have the time, perhaps you should shot the suspected welds yourself to see if there are some remarcable differences with what you got from this company, try to use inspection condictions to have the same density film and IQI wire or hole detectable.
Then I agree with neil the best way is to report it to your supervisor or manger but with very supported technical arguments so you cannot be fight back!
Good luck

---------- Start Original Message -----------
: Of which welding process(es) were the radiographs? What were the clue(s) which led you to the conclusion that the radiographers were doing "ringers"? If you have discovered other frauds from the same rediography crew then it looks serious, but have a second opinion if possible.
: If the graphs were of manual welding then this is akin to a signature so recognition of multiple shots of the same weld with changing idents is relatively easy to find and deal with, though you still need to be careful. As soon as you are certain and have hard evidence to back up your claim, report it to your supervisor/manager who will then have the responsibility of dealing with the matter. Usually this will be removal of the offending radiographers and replacement with a new crew AND review of all previous radiographs to check for other instances of fraud followed by the welds being radiographed if possible.
: Automatic welding is a little different and you will have to tread carefully as it can be very difficult to prove due to the usual lack of unique features on such welds. Immediately try to watch the radiograph crew's performance or assign someone to watch to prevent further fraud whilst attempting to gather evidence. Review all radiographs and attempt to build up a profile.
: Whatever you do, do NOT confront the radiographers with accusations. And in any case dont expect them to crumple and confess even if you do have some evidence. They wont admit it, they may fight back and cause you problems.
: Perhaps you may like to keep us informed of developments as it is an age-old topic of interest to radiographers and interpreters.
: Best of luck
: Nigel
: Regards
: Nigel
:
: Start Original Message -----------
: : Recently i have discovered false radiographs. Company which I supervise handover two differently numerized radiographs of the same weld. Later i discovered more fakes. It's oil pipeline. Any sugestions?
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 
Christoph Schnitger
Christoph Schnitger
07:55 Aug-06-2006
Re: False radiographs
...this situation is a little bit tricky....i know this situation very well and normaly it takes place when there is no need for 100 % testing or 100 % radiograph ==> than somebody ( ??!! ) starts to think its better to take the next weld instead of repair the first one !

Ok, what we did maybe that helps a little bit:

A) We sell lead markers tape with the logo or letters
of the ndt-service company inside so its not so simple to change the films

B) We recommend to stamp the welds which should be
testing by x-ray instead of working with markers

I know these two things make the process a little bit more secure , but not 100 % ...only a step in the right
direction !




    
 
 
Neil Burleigh
Sales
Krautkramer Australia Pty Ltd, Australia, Joined Dec 2002, 153

Neil Burleigh

Sales
Krautkramer Australia Pty Ltd,
Australia,
Joined Dec 2002
153
02:50 Aug-07-2006
Re: False radiographs
My first thoughts would be to get as many people involved in the pipeline to view a film from 1979 "The China Syndrome".
Hopefully this may twig someone's conscience.

Regards
Neil

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: Recently i have discovered false radiographs. Company which I supervise handover two differently numerized radiographs of the same weld. Later i discovered more fakes. It's oil pipeline. Any sugestions?
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 
p.bogatinovski
NDT Inspector
certlab.co, Serbia & Montenegro, Joined Feb 2004, 4

p.bogatinovski

NDT Inspector
certlab.co,
Serbia & Montenegro,
Joined Feb 2004
4
05:02 Aug-08-2006
Re: False radiographs
It is manual welding, and I discovered them because radiographs were to close, ID 53 & 55 and those had characteristic defects which I recognized right away. Then I started looking for the others and I find three more cases. There were two NDT companies which investor hire for the job and we send second company to re-shoot their films and result is from 50 radiographs we find 10 false. We have removed them from the job and we are now re-shooting three km which they did when problem with their performance started to occur. But we still have buried pipe which they x-rayed. Test pressure is 130 bar, 8" API 5L X52 pipe.

And you were right they denied everything, but we didn't ask them to confirm what we already knew.

I will have results in few days.
Regards to All

----------- Start Original Message -----------
: That´s too bad, We had a similar problem on which we reject a small container due that the film shows several non acceptable weld defects.
: The customer was not please at all because it affects his production so he look forward another company and they got a film from the same weld without any defect and with a readable IQI holes.
: However what we do is we shot the weld in front of the regulathory authority inspector, we perfrom the whole process with this government inspector as witness(Those guys should approve the product) and they were convinced that there was a problem with the customer and the other company.
: As neil says you must be very sure before start any complain or take any action.
: In other instances, we have found several radiograph of a tubular structure in which a company shot the same weld without changing the position of the machine, they just change the ID of the film, it was very easy to discriminate because it were exacltly the same weld and conditions.
: If you have the time, perhaps you should shot the suspected welds yourself to see if there are some remarcable differences with what you got from this company, try to use inspection condictions to have the same density film and IQI wire or hole detectable.
: Then I agree with neil the best way is to report it to your supervisor or manger but with very supported technical arguments so you cannot be fight back!
: Good luck
: ---------- Start Original Message -----------
: : Of which welding process(es) were the radiographs? What were the clue(s) which led you to the conclusion that the radiographers were doing "ringers"? If you have discovered other frauds from the same rediography crew then it looks serious, but have a second opinion if possible.
: : If the graphs were of manual welding then this is akin to a signature so recognition of multiple shots of the same weld with changing idents is relatively easy to find and deal with, though you still need to be careful. As soon as you are certain and have hard evidence to back up your claim, report it to your supervisor/manager who will then have the responsibility of dealing with the matter. Usually this will be removal of the offendingradiographers and replacement with a new crew AND review of all previous radiographs to check for other instances of fraud followed by the welds being radiographed if possible.
: : Automatic welding is a little different and you will have to tread carefully as it can be very difficult to prove due to the usual lack of unique features on such welds. Immediately try to watch the radiograph crew's performance or assign someone to watch to prevent further fraud whilst attempting to gather evidence. Review all radiographs and attempt to build up a profile.
: : Whatever you do, do NOT confront the radiographers with accusations. And in any case dont expect them to crumple and confess even if you do have some evidence. They wont admit it, they may fight back and cause you problems.
: : Perhaps you may like to keep us informed of developments as it is an age-old topic of interest to radiographers and interpreters.
: : Best of luck
: : Nigel
: : Regards
: : Nigel
: :
: : Start Original Message -----------
: : : Recently i have discovered false radiographs. Company which I supervise handover two differently numerized radiographs of the same weld. Later i discovered more fakes. It's oil pipeline. Any sugestions?
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 
Nigel Armstrong
Engineering, - Specialist services
United Kingdom, Joined Oct 2000, 1094

Nigel Armstrong

Engineering, - Specialist services
United Kingdom,
Joined Oct 2000
1094
02:15 Aug-09-2006
Re: False radiographs
Predrag

Well done for being alert! The actions of that crew (and others who behave similarly) are reprehensible. Unfortunately such behaviour adds to the bad image of much sub-contract NDT work, especially field work, despite the integrity and hard work of the vast majority of technicians. Those technicians are rogues and scoundrels, that is sure, but lets put it in persepective - in this wide world there are many rogues and scoundrels whose villainy has a far more significant impact on our lives and welfare than these few idiots. If you had not detected the "scam" then perhaps a significant defect could have been missed resulting in pipe fracture and contamination of sensitive areas.


My experience tells me that often the heart of the problem lies with the industry itself - too much emphasis placed on competitive tendering with the contract award going to the lowest bidder. It doesn't take a genius to understand what this can lead to, low wages and low morale, no motivation personnel. Also I findthat often the main contractor makes no provision for the safe and comfortable (dont take that too far!) working conditions of the techniciains. X-ray may be specified and then the techs could be expected to haul a heavy set up rickety ladders and on to unsafe scaffolding platforms where they have to manipulate the bulky tube into awkward positions and at night with inadequate lighting. Coupled with consequent low rewards for the technicians, inadequate training and poor personnel selection it can be a recipe for disaster, as your case has proven. All those buried welds which were the responsibiltiy of the crew caught in the act of fraud are now suspect.

As Neil says Hollywood ("The China Syndrome" refers to false radiographs leading to nuclear reactor containement failure and the radioactive contaminated leakage burning through the earth to China!!) would have us believe "Its all the bombers fault". Talk about heaping insult upopn indignity when so many scam artists make a very fat living whilst occupying very high positions which impact on many of us! Enough politics on technical discussions!


----------- Start Original Message -----------
: It is manual welding, and I discovered them because radiographs were to close, ID 53 & 55 and those had characteristic defects which I recognized right away. Then I started looking for the others and I find three more cases. There were two NDT companies which investor hire for the job and we send second company to re-shoot their films and result is from 50 radiographs we find 10 false. We have removed them from the job and we are now re-shooting three km which they did when problem with their performance started to occur. But we still have buried pipe which they x-rayed. Test pressure is 130 bar, 8" API 5L X52 pipe.
: And you were right they denied everything, but we didn't ask them to confirm what we already knew.
: I will have results in few days.
: Regards to All
: : That´s too bad, We had a similar problem on which we reject a small container due that the film shows several non acceptable weld defects.
: : The customer was not please at all because it affects his production so he look forward another company and they got a film from the same weld without any defect and with a readable IQI holes.
: : However what we do is we shot the weld in front of the regulathory authority inspector, we perfrom the whole process with this government inspector as witness(Those guys should approve the product) and they were convinced that there was a problem with the customer and the other company.
: : As neil says you must be very sure before start any complain or take any action.
: : In other instances, we have found several radiograph of a tubular structure in which a company shot the same weld without changing the position of the machine, they just change the ID of the film, it was very easy to discriminate because it were exacltly the same weld and conditions.
: : If you have the time, perhaps you should shot the suspected welds yourself to see if there are some remarcable differences with what you got from this company, try to use inspection condictions to have the same density film and IQI wire or hole detectable.
: : Then I agree with neil the best way is to report it to your supervisor or manger but with very supported technical arguments so you cannot be fight back!
: : Good luck
: : ---------- Start Original Message -----------
: : : Of which welding process(es) were the radiographs? What were the clue(s) which led you to the conclusion that the radiographers were doing "ringers"? If you have discovered other frauds from the same rediography crew then it looks serious, but have a second opinion if possible.
: : : If the graphs were of manual welding then this is akin to a signature so recognition of multiple shots of the same weld with changing idents is relatively easy to find and deal with, though you still need to be careful. As soon as you are certain and have hard evidence to back up your claim, report it to your supervisor/manager who will then have the responsibility of dealing with the matter. Usually this will be removal of the offending radiographers and replacement with a new crew AND review of all previous radiographs to check for other instances of fraud followed by the welds being radiographed if possible.
: : : Automatic welding is a little different and you will have to tread carefully as it can be very difficult to prove due to the usual lack of unique features on such welds. Immediately try to watch the radiograph crew's performance or assign someone to watch to prevent further fraud whilst attempting to gather evidence. Review all radiographs and attempt to build up a profile.
: : : Whatever you do, do NOT confront the radiographers with accusations. And in any case dont expect them to crumple and confess even if you do have some evidence. They wont admit it, they may fight back and cause you problems.
: : : Perhaps you may like to keep us informed of developments as it is an age-old topic of interest to radiographers and interpreters.
: : : Best of luck
: : : Nigel
: : : Regards
: : : Nigel
: : :
: : : Start Original Message -----------
: : : : Recently i have discovered false radiographs. Company which I supervise handover two differently numerized radiographs of the same weld. Later i discovered more fakes. It's oil pipeline. Any sugestions?
------------ End Original Message ------------




    
 
 

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